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DMS is great. The fact that DF and HK are even BETTER doesn't diminish the fact that we finally got a really good Shadowrun game in DMS after decades of dreaming.
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Aug 24, 2015 18:41
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cheesetriangles posted:Anyone notice that tons of poo poo is straight up busted and this game needed another month in the oven? Yep.
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Aug 24, 2015 18:51
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On the mission to kidnap rooster lo, there's a part with a locked door, and several options to try and get through it, around a corner there is a matrix jackpoint that the game won't let me use. I have not accidentally unequiped my decking gear or anything like that. Is this a bug?
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Aug 24, 2015 18:53
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Going back a page or two, but:Section Z posted:Silly question, does ANYONE play a straight shaman on purpose? Like, EVER? With conjuring and even spirit control increases and everything? I feel that of all the archetypes, core Shaman is the one I will likely never play, especially since HK exacerbates every foible it has. You once again are given a perfectly serviceable Shaman, which, hey, keep doing that, that's great, especially since Gobbet follows admirably in Dietrich's footsteps of being a total bro, except this time she gets access to tools which basically make the summoning aspect of the archetype work. Should this series, God willing, move forward with new installments every two years or so, some of Gobbet's Spiritualist track abilities need to be baked into one of the Shaman skill trees, most specifically guaranteed 100% leash for two turns but also perhaps spirit destruction/consumption and extra time on Shrine spirit summons. As it is, even if Shaman was a really good archetype, I can't imagine you'd ever be anything but second fiddle to Gobbet since she can hold shrine spirits for three turns, hold control over summoned spirits for two guaranteed turns no matter how far away they go, dispose of spirits gone rogue and, perhaps most important of all in this cash-strapped installment, she gets a free leveled Fetish for every mission. Bizarro Biggie Smalls and like two dozen posters posted:Less money mo' problems This is my one and only beef with the game: you feel so broke (or *broke*, in the spirit of the game) all the time. Part of it is due to the much, MUCH better pacing at which the stores get inventory you might want to spend money on and that the endgame gear is available for many more runs so the carrot is well and truly dangled, but the bigger part is that the game just doesn't pay out enough. As mentioned above, Dragonfall had the whole Alice fund thing going and the missions had payouts in the 20K+ Nuyen range (with the Aztechnology one paying out 36K) so it felt like you were running for some serious money, but even then the cuts were much more generous. I think you pocket upwards of 5K for the Azzie run. Then you had things like pocketing the 8K Alice fund overflow if you did all the runs (and who the hell doesn't?) and more options to make money on the side like the Lodge/Schockwellenreiter payouts and double-crossing the smugglers on the way to the Humanis Policlub for a cool 2K. Conversely, the mission where you take a boat ride and launch a full-scale assault to steal immortality research and wind up caught between a shady Johnson and some pissed off Koreans pays out all of 1.6K. Just how big *is* Auntie's cut?? Ravenfood posted:I like money being tight and forcing choices, but that means you have to have all the options available at the beginning of the game. If I know that alphaware costs 3x as much but provides whatever improved benefit, I can plan some of my spending better. Or with guns: seeing that the best gun only has +x damage over the tier below it lets me decide from the start whether I want to go for it or not. Not knowing what your high-end options are, combined with a ton of options for spending nuyen and karma that all need to line up well together, on top of not knowing what your karma or nuyen gains look like is a recipe for frustration. Not knowing what my upcoming options look like encourages buying upgrades at every tier. Not knowing what those upcoming options cost punishes not saving. Oh well. To each their own and I'm not done with the game yet but I'm headed for the point of no return with no runs left to do and the way I've been spending, if the payout per mission keeps going the way it's been going, I'm going to have to leave a lot of chrome on the table and it's not like I've been particularly profligate. I didn't install anything other than a datajack and the +6% eyes, I didn't buy a 6 Armor outfit when they became available, I upgraded my weapon only once (a FN-HAR with Smartlink) and my only real expenses are a raging Cram/Jazz habit and Armor and Haste I and II. Ideally they'd increase payouts and tweak difficulty upwards to compensate, but I honestly would just take a tweaking upwards of the run payouts just so I don't feel so poor all the time. I just wanted enough money to become the Bionic Man and have enough left over to buy my cool samurai ghoul buddy a flaming sword  That said, I backed this game for $65 and regret not one penny and I may be having an even harder time putting it down than I did Dragonfall even despite the miserly Johnsons/Auntie taxing 98% of the run profits and the bugs. Cape Cod Crab Chip fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 18:56
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I think that's a good point - Dragonfall had three ways to make money aside from your run payout. Paydata and then two organizations asking you for side objectives. If you pursue the side objectives for each organization you also end up with gear, which can save you thousands of nuyen. Overall they each paid out a lot of cash. HK has paydata and Maximum Law asks for metadata on heists where you can get a pittance or lovely decking software. Not a lot of money and no gear and only one instead of two organizations for side pay. Now I can see why running objectives for other organizations would be bad in HK: Auntie would not approve. But that means mission payouts gotta compensate and to some extent, they don't. If the idea is "we don't want you at full power before the mini-campaign" then I wish that had been better communicated - I might not agree with the logic but at least I'd know there was some logic. I'm not even sure there is enough money in the game as-is to go full cyber with the best alpha or bioware in every slot even if that's all you ever buy. It's nuts. Psion fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 19:00
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So, I'm on a late mission, and I decide to help some guy who's getting beaten up. I save him, he says thanks and I notice he has a shop, he has some nice armor I can buy, so I get it and well... It's raining too. Dude really was grateful, I guess! Edit: Holy poo poo, the vampire just joined my team. I knew there was a good reason for helping her. Gerblyn fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 19:07
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Haha, that bug is in Dragonfall too. Something about buying the armor they happen to have equipped at the time makes shopkeepers forget they have an inventory as well as their own personal clothing.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:12
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LibbyM posted:On the mission to kidnap rooster lo, there's a part with a locked door, and several options to try and get through it, around a corner there is a matrix jackpoint that the game won't let me use. I have not accidentally unequiped my decking gear or anything like that. Is this a bug? Did you buy one of those new cyberdecks, nova something? You can't use them for decking. 
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Aug 24, 2015 19:14
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If they were going to have so little money they should have had all gear unlocked from the start. You can't do both no money and no gear.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:15
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Is there a vendor after the point of no return?Avalerion posted:Did you buy one of those new cyberdecks, nova something? You can't use them for decking. I'm confused by what you'd mean by this. Yes I'm using a nova, and I've done both matrix decking and just skill check decking points with it equiped.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:19
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Stroth posted:And you did grow up in the Redmond Barrens. You can pick up a lot that way. Honestly the implied backstory allows for a lot of freedom but makes it difficult to explain things like having Socialite and Academic etiquettes (then again, so does becoming more charismatic and suddenly knowing police lingo). Personally I think the current etiquettes should become "backgrounds" you get ~2 of at character generation, and increasing Charisma gives you different approaches in conversation like e.g. Flattery, Intimidation, Provocation, Rationalizing, etc.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:20
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Also reaching back to reply:Section Z posted:Silly question, does ANYONE play a straight shaman on purpose? Like, EVER? With conjuring and even spirit control increases and everything? In my last DF game I didn't play a pure shaman but a mage/shaman where I focused on summoning and took Creator totem, no points in spirit control. It's kind of hilarious. Never used any consumable summons that I didn't find, just pulling buddies from the environment and giving them 4 AP every turn to go to town on enemies so long as I end my turn within 3 spaces of them. Kind of a pain if you forget positioning and resetting the totem but that's a balance I guess.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:23
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LibbyM posted:I'm confused by what you'd mean by this. Yes I'm using a nova, and I've done both matrix decking and just skill check decking points with it equiped. Strange, once I bought it in my game I couldn't jack into stuff, had to sell it and get one of the default decks and the option was back. This was the feng shui mission in particular, so maybe it's only not recognized by some jack in points? Dunno, I'd still suggest trying with a different deck though.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:23
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GunnerJ posted:Honestly the implied backstory allows for a lot of freedom but makes it difficult to explain things like having Socialite and Academic etiquettes Obviously you learned those from Raymond.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:24
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Stroth posted:Obviously you learned those from Raymond. Yeah that is pretty obvious, actually!
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Aug 24, 2015 19:31
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GunnerJ posted:Yeah that is pretty obvious, actually! I also justify it as the blacksite having a prison library and you having a loootttt of free time.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:40
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Finished HK, going to finally jump into DF now. I couldn't find an older thread, oddly, is there anything I should know about it before I do so? Surprisingly hard to find lists of things like what totems are available or such.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:50
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Subjunctive posted:Finished HK, going to finally jump into DF now. I couldn't find an older thread, oddly, is there anything I should know about it before I do so? Surprisingly hard to find lists of things like what totems are available or such. There's an old thread but it's abandoned now. I'll post some things to know later on.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:50
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:There's an old thread but it's abandoned now. I'll post some things to know later on. Hmm, I couldn't find it with search, but I might have been doing it wrong. Thanks in advance!
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Aug 24, 2015 19:54
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If you already played HK there's probably not a lot you need to know about DF, except that your decker NPC isn't as good compared to is0bel. I'm sure Section Z will be in here to write another 6,000 word treatise on how they changed the stat point requirements at the high end from 6 to 8 when going from DMS to DF, but since the stat point requirements at the high end are 8 in HK you're fine. ( )I think the most important thing to know is that similar spells don't share cooldowns in DF so if you want to spam the hell out of Haste I, II, III, and IV all in a row, do it. In fact you should do that. Then you will see why that was changed (fixed) for Hong Kong! old thread is here by the way. Same thread for both Returns and Dragonfall so just jump forward a hundred pages or whatever.
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Aug 24, 2015 19:54
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Psion posted:If you already played HK there's probably not a lot you need to know about DF, except that your decker NPC isn't as good compared to is0bel. I'm sure Section Z will be in here to write another 6,000 word treatise on how they changed the stat point requirements at the high end from 6 to 8 when going from DMS to DF, but since the stat point requirements at the high end are 8 in HK you're fine. ( Basically all the NPC runners are worse mechanically than their counterparts in HK, and one is optional and incredibly late. Like Gobbet can do some damage and hit enemies with her SMG and comes with some decent spells/spirit control. Dietrich is a haste-bot with incredibly lovely throwing knives etc. On top of that, the matrix is all combat and waaaaay more of a slog. Make sure you actually buy some extra ESPs for Blitz because he'll need the help, or roll a Decker yourself. Zore fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 19:57
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Just beat it, and man. That was nowhere near as good as Dragonfall. The music was forgettable (compared to Dragonfall, who's soundtrack I still listen to), there were alot of bugs that kept me from seeing most of the character missions, the fights were easier (though that may be me just knowing the game better). I just didn't care about the plot or most of the characters, they never gripped me. And, it was short. Like, 25 hours short. Dragonfall logged 50 hours.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:04
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Subjunctive posted:Finished HK, going to finally jump into DF now. I couldn't find an older thread, oddly, is there anything I should know about it before I do so? Surprisingly hard to find lists of things like what totems are available or such. The companions you get are a shaman (pretty much Gobbet v.1), a street samurai (melee/pistol), a gun specialist, and a decker/rigger who is kind of annoying but also optional. It's missing some cool character/build options fron HK so don't go in expecting to grab chain lighting or cyberwhips, I think adepts also don't work out too well in it. Given all of this a decker/assault rifle or decker/rigger is probably the best kind of character to take through this. Also, most etiquettes suck and only come up once or twice, only Security and Corporate are really useful.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:06
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FrancoFish posted:Just beat it, and man. That was nowhere near as good as Dragonfall. The music was forgettable (compared to Dragonfall, who's soundtrack I still listen to), there were alot of bugs that kept me from seeing most of the character missions, the fights were easier (though that may be me just knowing the game better). I just didn't care about the plot or most of the characters, they never gripped me. And, it was short. Like, 25 hours short. Dragonfall logged 50 hours. 50 hours for DC is a big stretch for a single playthrough. I did a completionist run with some reloading missions to check alternate routes clocking in at ~20 hours. Hong Kong took me about 15 hours for my first run through; it's shorter but not much so.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:19
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yeah I don't think that's right either. Dragonfall pre-DC and Hong Kong are pretty close in time. HK is shorter but I'd say it is mostly shorter because you have faster Matrix and more noncombat ways to resolve missions - combat is where the clock really racks up time. It's not for lack of content. also time as a metric of quality drives me up a wall but that's a whole different argument
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Aug 24, 2015 20:22
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Son of a Vondruke! posted:It must be bugged. I never got an errand from Mathew, and I never had the option to sell Law any info. Just a quick note, but I have twice now run into a bug with the non-runner NPC dialogs and loading the autosave made in Hefei. Essentially loading the autosave leaves all the NPC conversations flagged as complete, which can sometimes lock you out of trying other conversation options. I'd recommend making a normal save in Hefei after every mission, just to be safe.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:23
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Servicio en Espanol posted:I enjoyed DMS. At the very least the entire serial killer plotline was good and I loved that. Ultimately it was Shadowrun Game Try #1. The other games evolved in response to what worked and what didn't and customer demands and managed to do so successfully, but if DMS didn't hit a threshold of "good" we wouldn't have gotten the sequels everyone likes.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:30
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I'd say Dragonfall had better plot/story, while Hong Kong has (bugs aside) better game play. Overall I'd rate them pretty close. Dragonfall did feel longer though that might be subjective, didn't actually clock this.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:48
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Psion posted:also time as a metric of quality drives me up a wall but that's a whole different argument My first FFX playthrough took me over 100 hours. Clearly it's the best game in existence. Not to mention the 500+ hours I have in cyanide bloodbowl.
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Aug 24, 2015 20:52
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Rascyc posted:Sounds like yet another reason to ditch the game's most boring character then! She's not a great character sure, but her grenade launcher is reason enough to bring her. Enemies in this iteration seem to bunch up a lot, and I've had her wipe out a half squad right at the outset. My own and the drone shotgun usually finishing things. My biggest complaint so far is just a general lack of poo poo to yoink. Half of my consumables came from poo poo I stole in the last game. Now there is gently caress all. Rhymenoserous fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 20:53
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I'm not taking a decker or Isobel on any runs unless it's her personal mission or something anymore and seeing how it works out now. The Matrix is awful and I'm sick of dealing with it in these games. Also the music in Shadowrun: Hong Kong is much much worse than it was in Dragonfall and Returns. Bummer.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:04
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I think this is probably the one SR where it seems like you don't really need a decker. You do miss out on money though which kind of sucks.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:12
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:There's an old thread but it's abandoned now. I'll post some things to know later on. People have touched on the basics, but let's round up what you should probably know at character creation: unless you have a preferred archetype, you might want to steer toward Rifle Street Samurai, Decker/Rigger or Mage. Rifle Street Samurai because it's the highest single target damage you can get and because you can get completely cybered up to ludicrousness; Decker/Rigger because the one the game provides you with tends to rub people the wrong way and he's really, really poo poo at rigging because his drone was statted up using the original engine and it's a giant turkey shoot target that gets blown up if it gets so much as looked at and has a horrifically crappy gun; and Mage because you can't get one otherwise, not even as a Merc. The other bases are more or less covered or, if the character's stat block is lacking, their personality tends to make up for it for most people. Some more about these archetypes that's spoilery: another good reason to hem close to these archetypes is that you can get three or four Strength relatively easily from items and cyberware and be able to grab a Vindicator for a relatively cheap 5 to 9 Karma investment if that's your bag and one of your characters eventually gets an ability that creates a leyline at a target location but the character that has this ability can't really make good use of it so it's more or less you as a Mage or nothing. Etiquette-wise, depends what you want. If you want to skip fights, get Security and, to a lesser extent, Corporate. If you want to get more money, get Socialite. If you want early dialogue, get Gang. If you want late dialogue, get Academic. If you want to waste Etiquettes, grab Shadowrunner and Street.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:12
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AngryBooch posted:Also the music in Shadowrun: Hong Kong is much much worse than it was in Dragonfall and Returns. Bummer. I may be in the minority here but I think the music's more than fine. Dragonfall had some fantastic pieces to be sure, but I honestly thought some of the returning Returns pieces were pretty lackluster. I think I dislike almost every combat theme that isn't related to the Director's Cut content.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:13
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Wasn't the DF rigger/decker given massive buffs in the re-mastered edition?
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Aug 24, 2015 21:14
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I find it funny that is0 gets the most ire from SA forum posters considering she's an antisocial shut-in who would rather be posting on Shadowlands (on her home-built super computer rig) rather than hanging out in the real world.Rascyc posted:Wasn't the DF rigger/decker given massive buffs in the re-mastered edition? I wouldn't say massive, but they definitely improved him -- the upgrades you could select on level-up were a big deal for him. e: in both combat and decking is0 absolutely destroys him though, he really suffers for trying and mostly failing at being able to shoot, deck, and rig. If there were a way for me to redistribute his points to do only two of the three, well, he'd probably be like is0bel. Not a coincidence! Psion fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 21:15
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SRHK music is all right, it's a definitely letdown from DF's amazing soundtrack.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:17
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AngryBooch posted:I'm not taking a decker or Isobel on any runs unless it's her personal mission or something anymore and seeing how it works out now. The Matrix is awful and I'm sick of dealing with it in these games. Paydata makes up a significant portion of your overall funds in this game. You'll probably miss out on a few end-game items/upgrades with their high costs. I was running a surplus in Dragonfall but I was just getting by in Hong Kong.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:21
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Rascyc posted:Wasn't the DF rigger/decker given massive buffs in the re-mastered edition? Not in my experience, no. I never minded him as much as most of the people who post about him do, but he's strictly satisfactory and I had him along mostly because I'm a completionist and tend not to play Deckers so if there was something to jack into and some paydata to get, I was bringing a decker. And his drone is garbage. It always got blown up, whereas in the regular edition it'd still be standing at the end of missions. Definitely a huge step down mechanically from Is0bel who actually has been kind of a standout for me with her 'nade launcher.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:21
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Just got my first gamebreaking bug. Ares spoilers: If you take the runners with you in the basement and have a full inventory bar, the dialog for picking up an item isn't big enough to display the big STASH Y/N button with all your extra runners, so you can't do anything.
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Aug 24, 2015 21:25
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