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Robophile posted:I've been gradually working my way through the history of black metal, trying to hit the high points, and I think it's working. Going on from 1994, I think it's important to touch on Windir. They made downright beautiful melodic black metal. Of course some people think that because they're quasi-known and popular with more people than just three dudes in a basement in Bergen, they are traitors to the black metal scene. gently caress those guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W11EHJbbA Also, the lead singer died of hypothermia in a snowstorm, which is probably the most black metal way to die ever. E: Also, when you talk about Darkthrone's first albums, are you including Soulside Journey? It was like they couldn't quite decide between death metal and black metal, and they've been a bit all over the place with genres through their discography, so it's no shame to sample some of their later albums before coming back to the earlier ones. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 22:49
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funeral fag posted:Go back to gbs
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Sep 6, 2015 22:50
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Robophile posted:A couple of months ago I decided to finally see if I could 'get' black metal more thoroughly. I've been mostly a doom / death fan for years, and would occasionally happen across some black metal that would resonate, but I felt like I was mostly getting into the stuff that was fairly peripheral to the genre. I thought that if I had a better context for the genre as a whole, I might be able to appreciate it more. So I've been gradually working my way through the history of black metal, trying to hit the high points, and I think it's working. Check out the other big name greek bands, Varathron, and Necromantia. Someone already mentioned Tormentor, you'll almost certainly like them. If you like Master's hammer you'll probably also like Amon Goeth, another czech band. There's an early polish band called Christ Agony who you'll probably like if you're into Samael, I wouldn't bother with anything after their second album though. In terms of obvious stuff, you should listen to Beherit, Hellhammer and Mortuary Drape.
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Sep 7, 2015 02:04
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KozmoNaut posted:Going on from 1994, I think it's important to touch on Windir. They made downright beautiful melodic black metal. Of course some people think that because they're quasi-known and popular with more people than just three dudes in a basement in Bergen, they are traitors to the black metal scene. gently caress those guys. Windir just aren't very good. Probably because too much melody and beauty and whatever the hell stupid crap you're talking about aren't really what black metal should be like. A human heart fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 02:05
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Sacramentum owns though
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Sep 7, 2015 03:10
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A human heart posted:Windir just aren't very good. Probably because too much melody and beauty and whatever the hell stupid crap you're talking about aren't really what black metal should be like. Odd that this is literally the only place where I've seen people bash them, but whatever. Elitism and closed mindedness like you're showing is what's always been killing the scene, because any sort of new ideas are immediately panned as not being authentic enough, ie. exactly like everything was in the early 90s. And I'm from Scandinavia, so I'm the one who should be all elitist about it. Let's just end that here. Back to BM history, I guess Satyricon are too mainstream these days and more like black 'n' roll or something now, but they're an absolutely essential band in the history of black metal. Their really did still holds up, and should not be missed. And Nemesis Divina is a masterpiece. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 06:40
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A human heart posted:what black metal should be like. Goodbye to my eyeballs as they begin their journey rolling out of my head and out into the world
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Sep 7, 2015 06:48
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KozmoNaut posted:Odd that this is literally the only place where I've seen people bash them, but whatever. Elitism and closed mindedness like you're showing is what's always been killing the scene, because any sort of new ideas are immediately panned as not being authentic enough, ie. exactly like everything was in the early 90s. And I'm from Scandinavia, so I'm the one who should be all elitist about it. Let's just end that here. Satyricon were extremely boring as well, no one would give a poo poo about them if they weren't from Norway, It's a bit silly to say that elitism is somehow killing the scene when black metal has always been very elitist. Gamma Nerd posted:Sacramentum owns though well yeah, i didn't say that melody isn't allowed at all or whatever, just that when you start talking about how beautiful and melodic a band's music is maybe black metal isn't the genre you should be listening to.
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Sep 7, 2015 11:39
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A human heart posted:Satyricon were extremely boring as well, no one would give a poo poo about them if they weren't from Norway, It's a bit silly to say that elitism is somehow killing the scene when black metal has always been very elitist. I know a lot of people think Satyricon have "sold out" by making their production quality non-lovely, and their later albums are more of a hybrid black 'n' roll kind of thing. But if you're seriously saying that Dark Medieval Times, The Shadowthrone and Nemesis Divina are not essential albums in the black metal canon, that's just ridiculous. The elitism and arrogance has always been a problem with black metal. For crying out loud, Euronymous originally wanted people to submit applications in writing asking for permission to buy albums, and they would only be allowed to buy anything if he found them worthy. And a lot of BM bands and fans still act like they want to actively prohibit people from actually getting the music, and are borderline offended when people actually like their stuff. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 12:23
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The first two satyricon albums are really, really bad though
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Sep 7, 2015 12:51
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Go listen to Vulcano, Von, Chakal, Detonátor, Holocausto, Mutilator, Torturer, Poison, Venom, Sodom, NME, Root, 666/Torr, Bulldozer, Mortuary Drape, Tormentor, Sabbat, Hadez, KAT, Mefisto, Flames, Imperator, Sathanas, Abhorer, Mystifier, Sextrash, Amon/Amon Goeth, Blasphemy, Beherit, Varathron, Necromantia, Tatir, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost and Death Yell. [edit] Whoops forgot Impiety and Sigh. Also try Slaughter Lord, Corpse Molestation, Necrovore, Grotesque and Order From Chaos - shows how black metal spread into scenes via existing sounds. I've repeated some of what a few people said, but only because they're standard classics. KozmoNaut posted:I know a lot of people think Satyricon have "sold out" by making their production quality non-lovely, and their later albums are more of a hybrid black 'n' roll kind of thing. But if you're seriously saying that Dark Medieval Times, The Shadowthrone and Nemesis Divina are not essential albums in the black metal canon, that's just ridiculous. Satyricon is not essential to any black metal "canon" unless you really like norsecore. Discussing black metal as if Norway is the only country that matters is like discussing death metal and pretending it only comes from Stockholm. The Clit Avoider fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 13:02
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KozmoNaut posted:I know a lot of people think Satyricon have "sold out" by making their production quality non-lovely, and their later albums are more of a hybrid black 'n' roll kind of thing. But if you're seriously saying that Dark Medieval Times, The Shadowthrone and Nemesis Divina are not essential albums in the black metal canon, that's just ridiculous. You keep talking about non-lovely production and how that's some mark of elitism, but I haven't mentioned it once and I've never seen anyone talk about it the way you seem to think they do. I don't think any Satyricon album would be in the 'canon' if it were possible to make a canon, I don't really think much from Norway would be there other than Burzum, Darkthrone and early Mayhem. Norway gets a lot more attention than it deserves really. The elitism is part and parcel of the whole culture surrounding the scene, you're correct that many of the people in black metal bands probably don't want their music to have very much exposure outside of the scene, and I don't think that's an invalid position for them to take. Why should they be interested? They're quite happy doing their own thing and not being bothered by masses of people that they don't give a poo poo about. If I played in a black metal band don't think I would take that position, but it makes perfect sense for others to do so. And selling out is a real thing, in the sense of bands signing to larger labels and becoming bad. Black metal's always been non commercial, so people are justifiably upset when this happens. Same thing happens in punk, although the anticommercialism is more political and coming from a slightly different place there.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:05
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The Clit Avoider posted:norsecore. *groooaaaannn*
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Sep 7, 2015 13:06
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The Clit Avoider posted:Satyricon is not essential to any black metal "canon" unless you really like norsecore. Discussing black metal as if Norway is the only country that matters is like discussing death metal and pretending it only comes from Stockholm. The second wave of BM was pretty much defined by Norwegian bands, and Satyricon are every bit as relevant as Gorgoroth, Emperor, Enslaved, Immortal, Taake, Ulver etc. in that context. You may personally dislike them, but they are a prominent part of the early 90s Norwegian BM scene, which in turn is a pivotal movement in the development of BM. A human heart posted:You keep talking about non-lovely production and how that's some mark of elitism, but I haven't mentioned it once and I've never seen anyone talk about it the way you seem to think they do. I don't think any Satyricon album would be in the 'canon' if it were possible to make a canon, I don't really think much from Norway would be there other than Burzum, Darkthrone and early Mayhem. Norway gets a lot more attention than it deserves really. The elitism is part and parcel of the whole culture surrounding the scene, you're correct that many of the people in black metal bands probably don't want their music to have very much exposure outside of the scene, and I don't think that's an invalid position for them to take. Why should they be interested? They're quite happy doing their own thing and not being bothered by masses of people that they don't give a poo poo about. If I played in a black metal band don't think I would take that position, but it makes perfect sense for others to do so. And selling out is a real thing, in the sense of bands signing to larger labels and becoming bad. Black metal's always been non commercial, so people are justifiably upset when this happens. Same thing happens in punk, although the anticommercialism is more political and coming from a slightly different place there. I'm not trying to pull a "no true Scotsman" card here, but since I do live in Scandinavia, obviously Norwegian black metal (and Swedish death metal) are huge in the collective conscience here. I know there are a lot of great (awesome, even!) USBM bands and BM bands from all over the world. But the importance of the early Norwegian BM scene cannot be underestimated. They went all-out, they took it farther than anyone had before, with murders, church burnings, the whole deal. Hell, if you google "church burnings", the Wikipedia page for "Early Norwegian Black Metal scene" is the first hit. Technically, you could say that everything that has come since is watered down and nowhere near extreme enough to be called black metal. Except NSBM, maybe, but seriously gently caress that. I'm all about playing music for your own enjoyment, but there's a difference between not "selling out"* and actively hating the people who are supposed to appreciate what you're doing. *: The people crying "sellouts!" are usually just frustrated that their favorite band is no longer exclusive to them, never mind that the band will now have more money to produce more albums and tour more, which is awesome for everyone involved. Hardcore BM fans who wants to keep everything as obscure as possible are just hipsters with facepaint. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 13:09
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The Clit Avoider posted:Mefisto These guy reformed recently and the new song they've put up is really bad even by the standards of bands coming back after decades of being split up.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:09
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KozmoNaut posted:The second wave of BM was pretty much defined by Norwegian bands, and Satyricon are every bit as relevant as Gorgoroth, Emperor, Enslaved, Immortal, Taake, Ulver etc. in that context. The Norwegian scene's importance is greatly overstated based upon the media coverage and notoriety they got from the church burnings and murders. The scenes in Greece or the Czech republic or Brazil are just as important and the music is often better. The concept of waves also begins to fall apart if you've actually looked at for for very long. Like what wave would you put the Greek bands in? The Greek sound was developed pre Darkthrone, but their albums came out roughly contemporary with the Norwegian scene. Mortuary drape form in 1985 and don't release an album until 94. Master's hammer formed in 86 and their first album comes out in 91. The division into waves is really just used to reinforce the narrative of the Norwegian scene being the originators of something, which they were not. KozmoNaut posted:"selling out" (which is itself a bullshit concept) Please elaborate. A human heart fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 13:21
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COOL CORN posted:*groooaaaannn* Desired effect! I actually think it's a possible candidate for most tedious term ever, but it sure rouses the same emotions as most of the bands it describes. Well, that and I couldn't be bothered typing more words to say effectively the same thing as a one word term. Generally speaking, if you're rallying against mainstream, generic values the last thing you want is a codified sound. KozmoNaut posted:The second wave of BM was pretty much defined by Norwegian bands, and Satyricon are every bit as relevant as Gorgoroth, Emperor, Enslaved, Immortal, Taake, Ulver etc. in that context. I don't care either way about Satyricon. They exist, and Satyr can pull out a good riff every now and then, but they're mostly just down as boring in my book. They're just not essential to understanding the development of the movement. We've a guy asking about the history of BM - you don't start in 90s Norway.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:22
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A human heart posted:Please elaborate. See footnote above. TL;DR: Hipsters with facepaint. The Clit Avoider posted:I don't care either way about Satyricon. They exist, and Satyr can pull out a good riff every now and then, but they're mostly just down as boring in my book. No, obviously you don't start out in 90s Norway if you want the beginning, but he specifically noted that that he had listened to a lot of Scandinavian bands and that he was up to about 1994 now.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:24
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KozmoNaut posted:See footnote above. Hipsters are a fictional group of people, and most people who have that label put on them are unlikely to be particularly into black metal. You don't seem to have any awareness of where the concept of selling out came from. Perhaps you could ask someone involved in a punk scene to get an idea.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:28
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KozmoNaut posted:No, obviously you don't start out in 90s Norway if you want the beginning, but he specifically noted that that he had listened to a lot of Scandinavian bands and that he was up to about 1994 now. Recommend Thorns then? Integral to where Mayhem et all get the idea of the buzzsaw riff, rarely given enough credit and completely overlooked by most. I get that you want to promote the scene of your home country, but you should understand that doing so to the exception of all other scenes is actually in itself a form of elitism. Albeit one that doesn't actually have a benefit to anyone but your fellow nationals.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:32
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E: ^^^^ I'm from Denmark, not Norway. There is a Danish BM scene, but it's not exactly big. We've got Solbrud and Redwood Hill. And Myrkur, but it seems like nobody actually likes her music. And Mercyful Fate was more like thrash with angrier riffs. I know where selling out comes from, and if I were in a particularly nasty mood, I would say that it stems from teenage punk shitbags being intensely mad that they were too poo poo to get a record deal, while the so-called "sellouts" weren't. But instead I'll just say that it's a very common reaction when someone from an established subculture changes his/her opinions or for some reason is seen as "betraying" the ideals of the subculture. People change, but some people have a really hard time accepting that. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 13:34
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KozmoNaut posted:E: ^^^^ I'm from Denmark, not Norway. There is a Danish BM scene, but it's not exactly big. We've got Solbrud and Redwood Hill. And Myrkur, but it seems like nobody actually likes her music. Shrug. Change the national viewpoint to cultural then. I was simply making the point that you're being elitist as well. And yeesh, a Dane who doesn't know Denial of God?
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Sep 7, 2015 13:47
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I'd prefer to say that I'm not being elitist, rather I'm talking about the scene I know best, due to proximity.The Clit Avoider posted:And yeesh, a Dane who doesn't know Denial of God? Eh, I may have heard them and filed them away under "curious, may listen later" and then gotten into something else instead. I don't listen to BM exclusively, you know.
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Sep 7, 2015 13:54
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KozmoNaut posted:I'd prefer to say that I'm not being elitist, rather I'm talking about the scene I know best, due to proximity. It doesn't really matter though does it? It amounts to the same thing. You started this "trve kvlt" "some people" "elitist" bilge and you're just as culpable of it. KozmoNaut posted:Eh, I may have heard them and filed them away under "curious, may listen later" and then gotten into something else instead. I don't think anyone listens to BM exclusively. Hell, I'd hope nobody listens to metal exclusively, never mind black metal. However, that's a band that's been around since the dawn of the 90s, who are pretty integral to the Danish scene, still play (and headline) large underground festivals and who's frontman runs one of the better known labels/distros in Europe (Horror records)...
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Sep 7, 2015 14:13
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I started with the TRVE KVLT thing because holy poo poo the production on that track was literally just white noise. I can generate that myself in Audacity. Stuff like that is literally just a joke, you can't convince me otherwise. And yes, I do have a bone to pick with the self-proclaimed arbiters of what is true black metal and what isn't. It's just music. They're literally manipulating sound waves to induce pleasure in the brains of other people. There's nothing grim about it, when you break it down. And I never claimed to know everything and everyone, I just wanted to add to the discussion. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 14:16
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KozmoNaut posted:I started with the TRVE KVLT thing because holy poo poo the production on that track was literally just white noise. I can generate that myself in Audacity. Stuff like that is literally just a joke, you can't convince me otherwise. And yes, I do have a bone to pick with the self-proclaimed arbiters of what is true black metal and what isn't. It's just music. You could have done it in a much more constructive manner. As it is, all you have achieved is a petulant string of posts in which you look variably childish, narrow minded and misinformed. I mean, "it's just music", yet elevating the actions of the Norwegian circle, and talking about "They went all-out, they took it farther than anyone had before, with murders, church burnings, the whole deal" - you've just made yourself an arbiter of what is "true black metal". Fair enough though, generated discussion.
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Sep 7, 2015 14:25
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funeral fag posted:Hey here's some actual good ambient black metal I'm glad we came back around to what started this discussion, because I really like this but cannot find this anywhere. Evidently there was some 50-cassette run on Mortuary Tapes (a label that has put out 2 cassettes) and they have no bandcamp or digital presence that I can find. Do you know where I can hear more from these guys?
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Sep 7, 2015 14:30
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The Clit Avoider posted:You could have done it in a much more constructive manner. I'll disregard the pointless insults for the sake of civility. I merely pointed out that the Norwegian BM scene made such a mark due to their extreme extra-curricular actions, which were influenced by the same philosophies and ideals as their music, that it is important to not overlook some of the seminal bands of that particular scene. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 14:37
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KozmoNaut posted:It's just music. Music is one of the most important things in the world. Monkeytime posted:I'm glad we came back around to what started this discussion, because I really like this but cannot find this anywhere. Evidently there was some 50-cassette run on Mortuary Tapes (a label that has put out 2 cassettes) and they have no bandcamp or digital presence that I can find. Do you know where I can hear more from these guys? There's a contact email for them in this thread, you could try that(although the most recent post says they only have two left): http://nwnprod.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=986265&sid=de2fb43e8487e4682ac8ddaded5db645. Looks like northern heritage distributed it so you could ask them as well.
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Sep 7, 2015 14:38
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Monkeytime posted:I'm glad we came back around to what started this discussion, because I really like this but cannot find this anywhere. Evidently there was some 50-cassette run on Mortuary Tapes (a label that has put out 2 cassettes) and they have no bandcamp or digital presence that I can find. Do you know where I can hear more from these guys? I think you can order it here: http://www.ahdistuksenaihio.com/miscPage.php (search for Ungeziefer or the album name Trauerbunker). A human heart posted:Music is one of the most important things in the world. I agree 100%, but it's still entertainment. And it's very hard to take people seriously when they act all hard while playing musical instruments. Music is inherently not grimdark or brutal. It's fun, and the best bands are the ones who don't take themselves too seriously. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 14:46
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KozmoNaut posted:I merely pointed out that the Norwegian BM scene made such a mark due to their extreme extra-curricular actions, which were influenced by the same philosophies and ideals as their music, that it is important to not overlook some of the seminal bands of that particular scene. Nobody was overlooking them. You went fishing for spoils in your posts with "kvlt" and the reference to people sitting in a circle in Bergen before posting about Windir, and then pre-empted any scorn by introducing Satyricon with the caveat "too mainstream these days". As I said, childish, narrow-minded and misinformed.
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Sep 7, 2015 14:49
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Very marginally related to the current discussion, but a girl I went to university with just contacted me to ask about Norwegian black metal. She's working at a Norwegian embassy in Brazil, and they are required to learn about black metal. I guess people come to the embassy to ask about it? I told her to read up on Mayhem, Burzum, Darkthrone, Enslaved, and Emperor. Most books, documentaries and websites about the topic are way too riddled with sensationalism to be of any help, but I also pointed her towards Dayal Patterson's book, which treats the Norwegian scene more as a musical movement than an orgy of crime and satanism. Any other suggestions to someone who needs a basic introduction to the phenomenon? ElectricWizard fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 15:17
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ElectricWizard posted:Very marginally related to the current discussion, but a girl I went to university with just contacted me to ask about Norwegian black metal. She's working at a Norwegian embassy in Brazil, and they are required to learn about black metal. I guess people come to the embassy to ask about it? You may already have dismissed "until the light takes us", but I watched it a while back and thought it was interesting, if a bit superficial. I don't think it's too sensationalistic, it has some pretty down to earth interviews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l5Hbu_Fm9s KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 15:56
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KozmoNaut is 100% right btw.
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Sep 7, 2015 16:13
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Thanks for all the suggestions, it looks like I'm going to have to backtrack a bit before moving ahead again. I'd already checked out a number of the bands people suggested, but there's lots more in there that's new to me. One nice thing about coming at this so late, with no real previous investment or history in it, is that I can approach it without the baggage of 20+ years of arguments and debates about purity of the genre, real vs. fake, etc. I'm just hoping I can remain unbiased as I start to encounter Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, et al.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:42
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Robophile posted:I'm just hoping I can remain unbiased as I start to encounter Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, et al. Just take it for what it is, musically. With a fresh view on it, as well as having worked your way through the preceding history, you should be able to tell whether those bands (+others) actually brought anything new or at least competent to the table, before they made it big/sold out/got a major record deal later in their careers. Actually, it would be interesting to hear whether you think their style etc. changed at the same point as where the BM scenesters think they sold out.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:51
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ElectricWizard posted:Very marginally related to the current discussion, but a girl I went to university with just contacted me to ask about Norwegian black metal. She's working at a Norwegian embassy in Brazil, and they are required to learn about black metal. I guess people come to the embassy to ask about it? I'm going to second Until The Light Takes Us. I also find a lot of the best resources is directly from the band themselves. Go to youtube and search (for example) "Taake Interview".
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Sep 7, 2015 17:53
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Don't forget this classic interview, which sums it up very succintly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puwllq0fBLs
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Sep 7, 2015 18:10
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Robophile posted:Thanks for all the suggestions, it looks like I'm going to have to backtrack a bit before moving ahead again. I'd already checked out a number of the bands people suggested, but there's lots more in there that's new to me. If it helps ( it won't ), the first band that got me into "black metal" was Dimmu Borgir's Enthrone Darkness Triumphant. Before that I was into thrash - Pantera, some "industrial" like Fear Factory and Rammstein. I just couldn't get into the vocals in black metal ( or death metal ). But my friends kept playing EDT and so I kept listening and gently caress, the majesty of that album won me over. From there I included Cradle of Filth ( Dusk and Her Embrace is also still a masterpiece ) and started spreading my metal wings to more bands and genres sometime around 1995. At the time and location ( SE Asia, just pre-internet ) there was quite literally almost no options for metal except 1 store and they only really carried the "big stuff". At the risk of starting the dumb discussion again, I read through the last few pages and it's hilarious to me that anyone would discount Satyricon's Nemesis Devina, or say something like if you want beauty and melody that black metal shouldn't be your first stop. That is what got me INTO black metal - that split between raw ugliness and unparalleled beauty, whether it involves keyboards or not ( I think of Taake as a good example of non-keyboard centric melody ). Let's not touch on the various sub-sub-sub genre's though. I think it's just a case of when you first got into the "scene". Because I missed the first wave in the 80's and very early 90's, I absolutely can't stand poo poo like Darkthrone - every now and then I try to go back but I just can't do it. It is terrible music with no redeeming qualities. I do like some Mayhem but it's tenuous because Euronymous' vocals were poo poo. For me, the good stuff doesn't really start until 1993, but the really good poo poo starts in the late 90's/early 2000's and frankly 2015 because there has been some amazing poo poo this year.
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Sep 7, 2015 19:18
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Robophile posted:I'm just hoping I can remain unbiased as I start to encounter Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, et al. The Principle of Evil Made Flesh and Dusk and Her Embrace are crazy good records dude. Don't discount them just because Dani and his fans are enormous gaylords
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Sep 7, 2015 20:37
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