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Human Grand Prix posted:How many tokens do they have left? Ferrari was able to significantly improve their motor over the 2014-2015 off season. If they didn't use any tokens at Italy then they have three left.
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Sep 10, 2015 16:45
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It's over.
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Sep 10, 2015 16:48
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1500quidporsche posted:The regulations are really hosed up because everything is geared towards fuel efficiency which favors small incremental developments but development is locked down with that token system so you end up with these radical changes that either work out of the gate or go nowhere. The only way you can get parity again is to open up development. I haven't been watching F1 for very long, was this current Mercedes engine (the one Nico was using in Italy not the new one that used up tokens) an incremental development of last years engine? How did Mercedes produce such a dominating engine when Renault and Ferrari where given the same time frame to produce the 1.6L engines, and how did Honda get it so wrong when they had (to my limited knowledge) an extra year of development time?
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Sep 10, 2015 16:52
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The engine rules are completely retarded
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Sep 10, 2015 16:58
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mustard_tiger posted:I haven't been watching F1 for very long, was this current Mercedes engine (the one Nico was using in Italy not the new one that used up tokens) an incremental development of last years engine? How did Mercedes produce such a dominating engine when Renault and Ferrari where given the same time frame to produce the 1.6L engines, and how did Honda get it so wrong when they had (to my limited knowledge) an extra year of development time? They understood the rules better than everybody else, and this most recent development just improved upon what was already an excellent design. Ferrari is managed by Italians and Renault engines have been underpowered for quite some time, even prior to this current Turbo era. Honda Started developing in 2013 and went for a radical, compact engine design which hasn't worked. Combine this with them not having built a decent engine since the V10 era ended.
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Sep 10, 2015 17:05
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mustard_tiger posted:I haven't been watching F1 for very long, was this current Mercedes engine (the one Nico was using in Italy not the new one that used up tokens) an incremental development of last years engine? How did Mercedes produce such a dominating engine when Renault and Ferrari where given the same time frame to produce the 1.6L engines, and how did Honda get it so wrong when they had (to my limited knowledge) an extra year of development time? The engines year to year are now the same aside from things changed by tokens. So functionally the Mercedes engine has been pretty much the same to the one last year. To answer your remaining questions Mercedes basically started working on this earlier than everyone else and sunk more money into this than everyone else. The hybrid aspects of the engine related to the turbo are unlimited in terms of how much power they can put out, which is fairly exciting but is hampered by limited development. Mercedes opted for a fairly ingenious solution of splitting the turbo in half and sticking the hybrid motor in the middle with a huge focus on turbo efficiency, which I suspect given the way the regulations are laid out means they're just using the hybrid to spool up the turbo to keep compression high. The primary problem in the regulations is the fuel flow limit, which means instead of building a more powerful engine like in the past the focus is now on building a more efficient engine. Engineers are now looking at stuff like reducing friction on rear main seals and stuff because that's the only way you will get more power from the set amount of fuel you have. Edit: It's worth noting that this sort of incremental "lets take a look at the friction given off by all the bearings/valves/any moving part" is the best course of development for these engines, but goes completely against the current token system. Tony quidprano fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 17:27
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What everyone else said, but I understand that one of the reasons Honda are so poo poo is because they took too many radical risks with the engine design (partially because of McLaren's #sizezerocar bullshit) that didn't pay off in some areas and actively impedes in others.
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Sep 10, 2015 17:30
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Ron Dennis in 2014 posted:It is mindblowing, the engine is a piece of jewellery. They are further ahead than expected. The competiveness of the engine is without question. Ron Dennis is either a lying piece of poo poo or he's mentally challenged. Most likely he's both.
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Sep 10, 2015 17:41
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Ultra-Compact engine designs sound great on paper. Edit: Redbull- Ferrari Tie-up is probably imminent. Human Grand Prix fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 17:44
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I don't know why you are all referring to "engines" because it's quite clear they are now called MG-U-K-PU-Units now.
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Sep 10, 2015 18:06
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Brainwrong posted:I don't know why you are all referring to "engines" because it's quite clear they are now called MG-U-K-PU-Units now. That's Honda's problem. They're using British Leyland engines.
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Sep 10, 2015 18:22
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Rhopunzel posted:What everyone else said, but I understand that one of the reasons Honda are so poo poo is because they took too many radical risks with the engine design (partially because of McLaren's #sizezerocar bullshit) that didn't pay off in some areas and actively impedes in others. Which partially, they're forced into by the regulations, you have to push out the slightly untested innovations now because get it right and you can lead for years.
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Sep 10, 2015 18:58
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El Hefe posted:F1 rules are completely retarded
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Sep 10, 2015 19:20
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Thanks guys for the informative replies. I'm gonna go research all the crazy things honda did to make such a piece of poo poo. One thing I like about these incremental mods to things like rear main seals is that it seems like it can be directly applied to regular road cars. Is this true or am I way off base?
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Sep 10, 2015 19:56
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mustard_tiger posted:Thanks guys for the informative replies. I'm gonna go research all the crazy things honda did to make such a piece of poo poo. One thing I like about these incremental mods to things like rear main seals is that it seems like it can be directly applied to regular road cars. Is this true or am I way off base? I think one of the biggest problems is the compressor wheel design, I think they used several smaller ones.
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Sep 10, 2015 20:17
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mustard_tiger posted:Thanks guys for the informative replies. I'm gonna go research all the crazy things honda did to make such a piece of poo poo. One thing I like about these incremental mods to things like rear main seals is that it seems like it can be directly applied to regular road cars. Is this true or am I way off base? first thing honda did wrong was not being the glorious scud
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Sep 10, 2015 20:17
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mustard_tiger posted:Thanks guys for the informative replies. I'm gonna go research all the crazy things honda did to make such a piece of poo poo. One thing I like about these incremental mods to things like rear main seals is that it seems like it can be directly applied to regular road cars. Is this true or am I way off base? Not really, the cost benefit trade off for that is so small and the hassle of bringing that part in-house would not be worth it. If you want to see where Honda hosed up look up their turbo in particular. The reality of the situation is that for quite some time F1 engines have been far removed from road car engines. The only stuff that may transfer over 10 years down the road is the hybrid turbo setup. F1 engines can't have variable valve timing which virtually every new car has at this point and really in alot of ways the design of these engines is somewhat backwards. If they really wanted to innovate camless engines, free ignition systems and unfrozen engine dimensions would be the way to go but under the current regulations you can't do that.
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Sep 10, 2015 20:20
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from what i've read the problems all round: the combustion part of the engine is about 70hp down on mercedes, and the MGU-K which is pretty much like an always-on KERS only retains enough energy for a short burst at the start of the straight, which is about 150-170hp alone most of the issues can be attributed to having to make everything in line with ~#sizezerocar~
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Sep 10, 2015 21:46
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Weren't there problems with the car overheating because of the power units so they had to turn it down?
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Sep 10, 2015 22:12
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To be fair the solution for Mercedes is all round too and fairly ingenious and its sort of what Honda was going for but cocked it up. Mercedes has the smallest turbo of the manufacturers. Their basic engine philosophy from my understanding is that because of the fuel limits and power restrictions on the MGU-K your best focus is using the MGU-H to do all the harvesting and keep the boost constant to extract the most out of the fuel you use. My theory is that splitting the turbo was never about packaging efficiency. It was just the most reliable way of utilizing an electric motor to consistently drive the compressor at max RPM.
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Sep 10, 2015 22:19
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keevo posted:Weren't there problems with the car overheating because of the power units so they had to turn it down? The compact nature of the engine and packaging required additional cooling, which even then has proved insufficient.
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Sep 10, 2015 23:15
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I still think it was mistake to jump into McLaren right away, Honda should have made a lower-key debut with a small team, such as Sauber or even Manor.
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Sep 10, 2015 23:16
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keevo posted:Weren't there problems with the car overheating because of the power units so they had to turn it down? Initially. Although its now clear that was just masking the real problem that they just aren't harvesting enough energy/using it inefficiently. The car had massive turbo lag problems early in the season so I would guess that their special turbo sucks rear end and is taking all the energy up right now to smooth out the torque curve, they just won't have enough tokens to change it until next season.
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Sep 10, 2015 23:19
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haha they suck rear end
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Sep 10, 2015 23:52
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it pisses me off that Alonso went back to that piece of poo poo team even Hammy knew he had to get out
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Sep 11, 2015 00:11
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keevo posted:haha they suck rear end I mean you can say that but Renault and Ferrari both made the exact same mistake last year. It's just that neither were also trying to make a size zero car. Mercedes was the only one smart enough to work out the proper compression ratio/turbo size given the volume of the engine and max fuel flow. Why do you think Red Bull kept trying to skirt the fuel ruels? If you removed the fuel restrictions last year Mercedes probably would've had the least powerful engine.
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Sep 11, 2015 00:11
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El Hefe posted:even Hammy knew he had to get out
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Sep 11, 2015 01:27
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Hammy Ham, the most intellectual and forward thinking of all F1 drivers, the next Alain Prost Finally some common sense. Also, wasn't there some discussion that with Merc's split turbo it allowed them reduced cooling space since it removed the spool from the exhaust heat and there for had cooler air into the intercoolers.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:59
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El Hefe posted:it pisses me off that Alonso went back to that piece of poo poo team i shat on him at the time but he really made the right choice ala alonso leaving renault after 2006
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Sep 11, 2015 06:10
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It was years of pent up petulance that caused HAM to leave McLaren.
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Sep 11, 2015 10:01
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Sep 11, 2015 15:06
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I assume this means Hamilton will drive in to a wall in the next race.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:09
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Now do a head-to-head between Senna and MSC.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:16
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Funzo posted:I assume this means Hamilton will drive in to a wall in the next race. One can only loving hope. Singapore would be the place to do it.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:22
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Sweet comparison between 2 bad drivers.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:27
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I thought 1994 would be cool because of dying drivers and paydriver roulette but it's, uh, not...so far anyway.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:35
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More like fraud to fraud 
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Sep 11, 2015 15:36
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Nelson Piquet (Snr) is the best Brazilian driver, followed by Barrichello and Massa.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:56
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RALF posted:Nelson Piquet (Snr) is the best Brazilian driver, followed by Barrichello and Massa. hell agreed
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Sep 11, 2015 16:06
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RALF posted:Nelson Piquet (Snr) is the best Brazilian driver, followed by Barrichello and Massa. Agreed.
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Sep 11, 2015 16:10
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