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Kurieg posted:So what happens to the Kroot that eat a little too much of an aberrant gene seed? Kroot Long Fangs? Kroot with the blood rage? The Kroot haven't been able to kill and eat enough Space Marines for anyone to find out. hard counter posted:Must suck being the kroot that eats a dark eldar Kroot that eat Eldar gain the ability to project powerful psionic illusions, turning themselves into dark midnight-blue creatures with smooth skin, long sinewy limbs, clawed fingers and large purple eyes set in a small triangular face with two nostril slits on the end, no visible ears and a double set of razor sharp teeth in its mouth. They can also throw mirror images of themselves around in battle, which appear to their enemies as completely corporeal and capable of causing harm. Presumably Kroot that eat Dark Eldar will gain all of that plus some really sadistic tendencies. Sadly the Eldar Kroot were wiped out by the Silver Skulls Spess Muhreens since they figured Kroot with Eldar level psyker powers was probably too much of a threat to be allowed to live. Eimi posted:Yeah money. It's insanely expensive, also insanely overpowered. To be fair, Mantas are used to kill Titans 
Neruz fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 01:53
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Neruz posted:The Kroot haven't been able to kill and eat enough Space Marines for anyone to find out. The Tyranids have, though! They recycled Space Marine genetics and physiology to create the Tyrant Guard, a unit you'll know if you've played Dawn of War 2. Eldar gave rise to the Zoanthrope, regular humans were incorporated into the Genestealer, and Orks are the basis of the Biovore. The Hive-Fleets either have yet to consume enough Tau, Kroot, and Vespid to create a new organism based on any of them, or they've decided their genetics have nothing to offer the Hive Fleets.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:01
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Cythereal posted:The Tyranids have, though! They recycled Space Marine genetics and physiology to create the Tyrant Guard, a unit you'll know if you've played Dawn of War 2. Eldar gave rise to the Zoanthrope, regular humans were incorporated into the Genestealer, and Orks are the basis of the Biovore. The Hive-Fleets either have yet to consume enough Tau, Kroot, and Vespid to create a new organism based on any of them, or they've decided their genetics have nothing to offer the Hive Fleets. On the topic of Tyranids and Orks; Squigs appear to actually be some kind of modified Tyranid strain which suggests that while the Tyranids were incorporating Orks into the Swarm as the Biovore, the Orks were incorporating Tyranids into the WAAAGH! right back at them as the Squig. The fact that this seems to have worked suggests some interesting things about Tyranids and Orks. Considering both the Tyranids and the Orks are basically examples of adaptable weaponized ecosystems, it should come as no surprise that upon contact they promptly began to start assimilating each other. The fact that they both succeeded is interesting though.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:05
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Eimi posted:The Tau fighter (the manta) in particular is very infamous because of the fact that it's a real model you can use on the TT and the fact that its like 960 pounds. Mantas are used as bombers, not fighters. The Tau use Barracudas for that role, even though to go up against Imperial Furies they should really be using Tiger Sharks for their twin ion cannons or railguns.
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Sep 11, 2015 03:41
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It's worth noting that because the Tau make use of laser guided munitions as well as smart projectiles and homing missiles in general they tend to absolutely own the poo poo out of the Imperial airforce unless they have a massive numbers disadvantage.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:07
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Neruz posted:It's worth noting that because the Tau make use of laser guided munitions as well as smart projectiles and homing missiles in general they tend to absolutely own the poo poo out of the Imperial airforce unless they have a massive numbers disadvantage. Though they travel 8 times more slowly than the Imperials, so getting a massive numbers disadvantage happens way more often than they'd like.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:09
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Eimi posted:I'm not sure if I remember Chaos being better at long ranges and fast though, that's kind of Eldar's thing. From what I remember of each faction in Gothic, the Imperium's ship were heavily armored, slow as poo poo and with insane broadsides, Chaos was Imperium with higher chance to fail but marks, Orks are rammy, and Eldar are the glass cannons. If you can hit them they die to a flea. If you can hit them. Their speed depends on the position of their ships to the star in system, solar wind giving them the ability to cover an entire table in one or two moves. In addition to this they have holofields which are essentially a chance to not get hit. And they could move after firing. Done right an Eldar fleet would swoop in, pick you to pieces and then swoop out of range of retaliation. Nah, the Imperial and Chaos fleets in Gothic were actually really well balanced and interesting. Chaos ships were in fact slightly faster on average and had more long range guns, particularly lances. Imperial ships had the armored prow, more ordnance, shorter range, and a few other quirks that gave them a bit of tactical flexibility. They were monsters in a close range fight, especially if the player understood how to best use torpedos. Chaos ships worked well on their own, but Imperial ships could better cover each other's weaknesses. Orks could field more ships, but it wasn't enough to make up for their unarmored rear quadrants, awful leadership stat, and poo poo gunnery. Eldar were a dumpster fire of game breaking special rules (hellooooo pulsar lances,) including, yes, "solar sails" that changed their speed depending on which way the ship was facing. Games vs Eldar devolved into each side trying to best manage the Eldar's gimmicks, which could be fun in a certain way, but massively favored experienced players over newbies and often felt quite unfair. Nobody played Dark Eldar. Nids were fun in that you could kludge a fleet together with styrofoam, a hot wire cutter, and the scrapings of a 40k Nid player's bits box. They were the best at boarding, but needed to be in range of a hive node, or their ship behavior was decided by a flow chart. Space Marines were interesting, but pure Marine fleets tended to be overwhelmed by bomber waves due to relatively anemic ordnance. It was also a bit bullshit that Chaos could take Chaos Space Marine crews on their normal ships. There were also AdMech, Rouge Trader, and Tau fleets, but I can't really remember any of them. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 06:58
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Eldar were basically 'I get to ignore most of the rules that make maneuvering fun and a major part of the game for other fleets.' combined with all kinds of other frustrating to play against bullshit.
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Sep 11, 2015 07:02
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Night10194 posted:Eldar were basically 'I get to ignore most of the rules that make maneuvering fun and a major part of the game for other fleets.' combined with all kinds of other frustrating to play against bullshit.
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Sep 11, 2015 07:08
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Eldar having bullshit maneuverability and being incredibly frustrating to fight is at least extremely thematically appropriate if nothing else.
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Sep 11, 2015 07:23
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It's less they have good maneuverability and more 'Everyone else in the game has to move then turn then move then turn or use special rules that screw their firing to turn or move better' while Eldar get 'Each turn, before moving, decide where you're facing. Then move.' Everyone else is negotiating a core part of the system and the Eldar player gets to just go 'Yeah, I'm where I want to be'.
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Sep 11, 2015 07:25
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Night10194 posted:Eldar were basically 'I get to ignore most of the rules that make maneuvering fun and a major part of the game for other fleets.' combined with all kinds of other frustrating to play against bullshit. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 07:27
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I think if they get "stuck" in the original BF:G statblocks they'll just hamstring themselves. Hopefully they'll look at all the stuff in BF:G and Rogue Trader and build on the themes rather than try and translate the crunch directly.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:04
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goatface posted:I think if they get "stuck" in the original BF:G statblocks they'll just hamstring themselves. Hopefully they'll look at all the stuff in BF:G and Rogue Trader and build on the themes rather than try and translate the crunch directly. I did find it hilarious that aircraft carrier style vessels in Rogue Trader proved to be by far the superior choice, in my experience anyway, as they were able to shred powerful but impractical battleships through asymmetrical warfare. I wonder if that was intentional.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:28
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goatface posted:I think if they get "stuck" in the original BF:G statblocks they'll just hamstring themselves. Hopefully they'll look at all the stuff in BF:G and Rogue Trader and build on the themes rather than try and translate the crunch directly. On the other hand it's a clearly evocative set of mechanics for the Eldar: lightning fast but only in straight lines and awkward to maneuver in close quarters, powerful guns but few of them and with restricted firing arcs, and difficult to hit but take disproportionate penalties from damage. Would be a fine contrast to the other fleets. I'd imagine Orks in this game are going to be brawlers, tough and good at close quarters with excellent ramming and boarding but lacking long-range power.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:29
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hard counter posted:I did find it hilarious that aircraft carrier style vessels in Rogue Trader proved to be by far the superior choice, in my experience anyway, as they were able to shred powerful but impractical battleships through asymmetrical warfare. My Emperor class Battleship in BFG would regularly take out a friend of mine's Retribution. The Emperor was a heavy carrier, the Retribution was basically a cruiser but more in every way. Aircraft carriers were mean as hell in the TT game, too.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:30
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40k being set in the future but with anachronistic war will always be the best thing 
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Sep 11, 2015 22:10
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hard counter posted:40k being set in the future but with anachronistic war will always be the best thing The justifications for it are cute/sometimes work. Orks are so tough/mean/hate shooting that they will charge you regardless and reach your lines without being shot up because they are so tough. Same with how ludicrous power armor is. That sort of thing is at least a throw away justification to have awesome fights and I approve. Now as for why the Imperial guard isn't just spotters and miles of basilisks? I'm not sure.
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Sep 11, 2015 22:28
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Eimi posted:Now as for why the Imperial guard isn't just spotters and miles of basilisks? I'm not sure. Basilisks are expensive to make and maintain, Guardsmen are not. Speaking of which, I recently brought this up in a military sci-fi discussion: the Imperium's answer on why they don't drop asteroids on planets Lexicanum posted:Rocks are NOT ‘free’, citizen.
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Sep 11, 2015 22:43
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Eimi posted:Now as for why the Imperial guard isn't just spotters and miles of basilisks? I'm not sure. Been waiting on that drat requisition for 10k years now 
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Sep 11, 2015 22:46
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Night10194 posted:My Emperor class Battleship in BFG would regularly take out a friend of mine's Retribution. The Emperor was a heavy carrier, the Retribution was basically a cruiser but more in every way. Aircraft carriers were mean as hell in the TT game, too. Attack boats were murder. All the crits, all the time. One good wave of crits could leave your ship weaponless on the wrong side and coasting on a direct trajectory for the table edge with no way to maneuver. Why deplete 15 hull points when you could just mission kill the battleship with one wave of attack boats? Bear in mind the Emperor could unload enough attack boats to do that every two turns if your reloading rolls held out. Even better when you did it from point blank range, so there was no way for the victim to evade or otherwise bring countermeasures to bear. Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 23:11
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To be fair, the two armies that most resemble modern militaries- the IG and Tau do try obliterate enemy at long range. All the other major factions have self-consistent reasons why they rely on close-quarters combat
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Sep 11, 2015 23:12
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quote:Rocks are NOT ‘free’, citizen. Let's be honest, this is offensively stupid. Just like how the whole of the Tyranid process is so immensely wasteful that any defended planet would be a huge resource sink for them, it would be better if they never tried to explain it. Hell, it would be better if that long worthless justification just read, "I like it when we get to fire the big guns, as would any RIGHTEOUS servant of the Emperor. Are you a space communist?" 40k gets so much worse whenever it takes itself seriously.
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Sep 12, 2015 00:37
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That was written as an entirely tongue in cheek thing decades ago. It was only ever published in White Dwarf because it made the staff laugh.
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Sep 12, 2015 00:45
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akulanization posted:So it comes down to a retarded misallocation of resources then? This-is-what-the-administratum-actually-believes.txt but I think you're right about the culture of "are you a bad enough dude to fire the emperor's biggest guns?' being a more fun explanation - both are still a little funny though.
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Sep 12, 2015 00:51
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akulanization posted:So it comes down to a retarded misallocation of resources then? goatface posted:That was written as an entirely tongue in cheek thing decades ago. It was only ever published in White Dwarf because it made the staff laugh.
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Sep 12, 2015 00:53
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 Gregory in action.
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Sep 12, 2015 00:59
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EponymousMrYar posted:Uh, welcome to the Imperium where improving efficiency is counter-productive because it would take so long to do so that following current inefficient practices gets that job and two to three (or more) done in the same amount of time. Microscratches in paint spell true name of a greater demon of Khorne. Goodbye Titan. Asteroid core held long dormant plague of Nurgle. Goodbye everything on planet. Warp storm! Asteroid veers off course into Farm World. But yeah this js like saying "why dont we catapult entire hills at them" when a Hellfire missile can pretty much do the same.
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Sep 12, 2015 01:10
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Microscratches in paint spell true name of a greater demon of Khorne. Plus those things. Sure they sound like one-in-a-billion chances but when you're rolling the dice trillions of times...
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Sep 12, 2015 01:36
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A magna-melta warhead is basically just a really fancy rock anyway.akulanization posted:which disregards that asteroid belts aren't what any sane person would call dense. In reality yes, in 40k asteroid 'belts' are actually extremely dense and are primarily the result of prevailing warp currents dumping debris and flotsam somewhere.
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Sep 12, 2015 01:45
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The others reason Imperial Gaurd isn't Basalisks and spotters is because they usually are, the matches normally played have a justification that the area is too important for that kind of indiscriminate fire. Basilisks are actually really inaccurate even with spotters because for all the high tech they have they can't change course in mid air and as such a micrometer off target becomes metres over long distances. Also Tyranids do get hosed over by defended planets, there is a reason they haven't won yet and it's usually a single exceptionally well defended planet breaking the hive fleet's back over it's knee. See the battle for Macragge, Ultramarine home planet, basically the Tyranids only get to use their absurdly efficient digestive pools and the ability to literally digest entire planets of all nutrients and minerals if they beat the defenders of the planet. If one planet starts going wrong the Hive Mind is likely to focus every part of the hive fleet on that point in the hopes that it can overwhelm that one defense and then reclaim all the wasted biomass anyway. Funnily enough most small Tyranid organisms don't even have stomachs they just have a cavity to store biomass inside and then they go and jump into specifically grown giant pools of hyper-efficient stomach acids.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:21
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Also, you may not have noticed, but Imperial warships are kind of huge. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that they have their own gravity wells. They have the tools to bombard from orbit as long as they like. And many of the Emperor's enemies are nothing if not stubborn. Drop that rock on an Orc world. You just dropped an asteroid WITH AN ENGINE, or at least, a buttload of easily accessible iron, right into their misbegotten laps. Basically you gave them their own Rok Fire from the Emperor's blessed warships, however, is specifically designed to be of the least use, and the most devestating, to His enemies.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:23
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Ralepozozaxe posted:
You are a beautiful human being.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:44
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Veloxyll posted:Drop that rock on an Orc world. You just dropped an asteroid WITH AN ENGINE, or at least, a buttload of easily accessible iron, right into their misbegotten laps. Basically you gave them their own Rok Speaking of which, that Orc novella about the Mek crews is great. They waffle from being average Orcs to asking each other how they managed to get sustainable primary ignition on that fusion engine in the stompa, and then being told "well we were really drunk at the time and that planet was so boring".
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Sep 12, 2015 05:38
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Big Meks are great, they'll give you a cutting edge dissertation on the subatomic physics involved in generating a force field and then they'll turn right around and smack said force field generator with a spanner to remind it who is boss. Sometimes they even intimidate Imperial Machine Spirits into obeying them, they secure AI loyalties with threats of violence and it works.
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Sep 12, 2015 05:42
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As for the Tau and space combat, essentially they showed up for the Battle of Midway while the rest of the galaxy is somewhere between Pirates of the Caribbean and Jutland. It... tends to work out well for the Tau, all things considered. The Tau's main problem starting out is they had to reverse engineer all their warp stuff from a crashed ship they discover, and the engines they develop are massive and energy intensive. They have Sho'aun'or'es, which is limitless energy, but it only comes out at a certain rate. If you ever wondered what that backpack that Fire Warriors have is? It's one of these. As I recall the Plasma Pulse that the Tau guns shoot doesn't use a lot of mass, but it does use a lot of energy. So they Tau stick batteries in their portable cold-fusion reactor when they are drained and pull out charged ones when they are "reloading." Similarly, to do warp travel they need time to store lots of energy up in capacitors to be released all at once, which is suboptimal compared to sailing through the warp directly. The first warp engines are 1/5 the standard Imperial warp speed. However it has the advantage of being quite predictable/dependable. That ship above is the first real warp-capable Tau ship, the Explorer class. Basically it's the Enterprise, in both the Star Trek and WWII way. At first all the boxes are loaded with science stuff, colony pods and modular cargo transport and they just gallivant around exploring poo poo. Then they run into Orkz, and they change all the cargo to Mantas and Barracudas and they start fighting War in the Space-Pacific. Still, they run into problems in that the Explorer is big, not very fast and they don't really have an escort for it. They do build one fairly soon, the underwhelming Merchant class. In the meantime Tau orbital manufacturing goes into overdrive to churn out ships faster than the Orkz can destroy them because they can do that. Oh right, the Manta came up:  It costs $1500. It is of dubious use in the tabletop game because although it can transport an entire army including vehicles, there isn't much reason to do that and its guns don't quite justify its point cost. Also in the game it is really slow. In the fluff it fights Imperial Titans by hovering menacingly and trading fire, but this is never really explained either. What I mean is the technical specs of the thing lists a top speed of Mach 2.2 at 5,000 feet as well as the ability to super-cruise at that altitude. It is hilariously the fastest atmospheric craft that the Tau have, exceeding the speed of the Barracuda, Thunderbolt and Lightning Strike Fighter. In BFG it is average speed for a bomber, but whereas most bomber tokens represent a squadron each Manta is its own thing. It has shields and flying-fortress miniguns everywhere and is generally a bitch to take out. Explorers carry loads of them and they can wreck a ship proper. At some point they even start putting warp engines in them so they are literally small starships in their own right, but that isn't ever used for anything cool or interesting. Much like most of GW's neat ideas these days.
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Sep 12, 2015 05:50
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So how much would the Tau charge a Rogue Trader for one of those Explorers? Fit it with proper Warp engines and a Gellar Field (maybe see if we can pinch some stuff off the Eldar, they've got good poo poo) and cruise in style.
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Sep 12, 2015 05:55
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The Tau also have some interesting ideas about fleet composition. The majority of the Tau spacefleet was made up of what they call 'Merchant' ships. This seems pretty harmless until you learn that just because it is full of holds that can carry vast quantities of goods does not mean they cannot instead carry vast quantities of weapons systems. Recently the Tau have been upgrading their space fleet since it was kind of lacking, the Merchant ships are being replaced with 'Hero' class ships and various other specialized warships, but there are still plenty of Merchant class ships in service. The Lone Badger posted:So how much would the Tau charge a Rogue Trader for one of those Explorers? Fit it with proper Warp engines and a Gellar Field (maybe see if we can pinch some stuff off the Eldar, they've got good poo poo) and cruise in style. My heresy detector just exploded, no true son of the Emperor would ever dare use hideous unsanctified xenos technology. And not a single non-Chaos techpriest would ever be willing to fit such heretical ships with the divine gifts of the Omnissiah.
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Sep 12, 2015 06:00
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The Lone Badger posted:So how much would the Tau charge a Rogue Trader for one of those Explorers? Fit it with proper Warp engines and a Gellar Field (maybe see if we can pinch some stuff off the Eldar, they've got good poo poo) and cruise in style. Depends on the Rogue Trader - a rich enough one probably has a vessel filled with DAoT archeotech and so punches well above whatever the Tau can currently field, a heretical enough rogue trader probably prefers eldar heretech for the same reason. It's important to remember the Imperial Navy reflects a different aspect of the Imperium than the IG. Most (big) vessels took generations to build, some can have seen millenias of service, and so represent a lot of borderline DAoT knowledge, albeit stripped down to cut building/maintenance turnaround times. A lot of imperial ships don't even have autoloaders for certain types of macrocannons, those are instead loaded by serfs because there's no appreciable performance difference between the two unless you consider the abject misery of the serfs loading stuff through sheer muscle power. Hilariously imperial ships might pack even more power if anyone knew the activation rites on all the weapons. Aside from stuff like that the Imperium's ships are still actually good, powerful and intimidating like the imperium was, but every little loss is a major blow. The slow grind of attrition means every year the navy shrinks a tiny bit since supply does not equal demand and so the inevitable always looms on the horizon. Ralepozozaxe posted:
Owns.
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Sep 12, 2015 06:21
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Neruz posted:
Have you ever played the RT RPG? It's to the point where the most unorthodox party would be a group of diligent explorers who are faithful to the Imperial Creed and eager to expand mankind's borders. RT was Black Crusade before Black Crusade came out, and most PCs response to 'Tau tech?' would be 'Them's good eats, put 'em next to our Nid Biotech Infused Techpriest.'
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Sep 12, 2015 06:23
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