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borkencode
Nov 10, 2004
Letter from CARB to VW
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.htm

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Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'


The Washington Post article on it says this isn't exactly a VW-exclusive deception.

quote:

Automakers have a long history of using defeat devices. In 1998, the EPA reached a $1 billion settlement with diesel-engine companies such as Caterpiller, Renault and Volvo for installing equipment that defeated emission controls. It was, at the time, the largest U.S. civil penalty for violating environmental law. The EPA said the firms installed the devices in an estimated 1.3 million engines in tractor trailers and large pick-ups.

That same year, Honda and Ford settled EPA cases also accusing them of using defeat devices. With Ford, the problem was found in 60,000 Econoline vans, allowing for excessive pollution at highway speeds. Honda was found to have disabled the misfire monitoring device on 1.6 million cars, depriving emission control inspectors of that information.

keegles
Aug 24, 2013

Mr. Apollo posted:

Question for you; I have a 2013 S4 and there's an annoying squeak coming from somewhere in the rear passenger area. It happens if the rear seats are up or down and usually only occurs when I hit a bump. Is this something that's a know issue or has a simple fix? My dealer is about a 40 minute drive away and I really don't want to waste a Saturday morning going out there only to be told ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we don't know where it's coming from, sorry.

I have seen a couple tickets come through with a noise from the rear, however it's usually a rattle, and I think we were replacing struts.

My general rule of rattles is as long as it is very noticeable (as in if you were to tell it to a passenger, they would be able to pick up on it) or you can duplicate it on the service drive with a tech/advisor then you'll have a better chance of them not throwing up the "Could not duplicate, operating to manufacturers design".

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000

keegles posted:

I have seen a couple tickets come through with a noise from the rear, however it's usually a rattle, and I think we were replacing struts.

My general rule of rattles is as long as it is very noticeable (as in if you were to tell it to a passenger, they would be able to pick up on it) or you can duplicate it on the service drive with a tech/advisor then you'll have a better chance of them not throwing up the "Could not duplicate, operating to manufacturers design".
It's pretty easy to duplicate, just drive over a bump at normal city road speeds and yeah, it's pretty loud too.

I'll call the dealer and see what they say.

Bajaha
Apr 1, 2011

BajaHAHAHA.


Mr. Apollo posted:

It's pretty easy to duplicate, just drive over a bump at normal city road speeds and yeah, it's pretty loud too.

I'll call the dealer and see what they say.

Take a video. Whenever I had bullshit intermittent issues with my Hyundai, video proof made proving the issues to the dealer that much simpler.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.
Megamarm
The emissions poo poo on current diesels sold in the US make them unreliable, down on power, and down consumption wise compared to their Euro counterparts. It's a sad thing.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.
Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine.

They make a lot more sense in big executive cars and SUVs

thatguy
Feb 5, 2003
Yeah it was terrible getting 48 mpg in my TDI beetle this summer driving the 2000 miles from SC to Idaho. I don't know how to handle how poo poo diesels are in small cars. Makes way more sense to get 35 in a gas.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.
Megamarm

dissss posted:

Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine.

They make a lot more sense in big executive cars and SUVs

I had/have a BMW 335D - my '16 GTI is doing better daily gas mileage by 3-4mpg (26-28mpg vs 32ish) and trip MPG is about the same with maybe a nod to the BMW (40ish mpg). Emissions issues in the US are effectively the kiss of death for the thing. There is a huge weight and power difference between the two, which kinda makes the 335D impressive.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

thatguy posted:

Yeah it was terrible getting 48 mpg in my TDI beetle this summer driving the 2000 miles from SC to Idaho. I don't know how to handle how poo poo diesels are in small cars. Makes way more sense to get 35 in a gas.

There is way less relative difference than that though provided you are comparing with the more modern VW petrol engines

Kashwashwa
Jul 11, 2006
You'll do fine no matter what. That's my motto.

dissss posted:

Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine.

They make a lot more sense in big executive cars and SUVs

This is not true.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=21892&id=21896&id=21894

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35349&id=35354

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.
The 2.5 does not count as a modern engine - check the 1.4l TSI vs the 2l TDI

two_beer_bishes
Jun 27, 2004
We just bought our 2011 Golf tdi last February so I'm pretty bummed about this and the impending drop in value. I love driving the car; it handles great, rides great, loads of torque, and the great fuel economy is a bonus. I have no intention of bringing the car to a dealer for this recall since I don't see how it won't ruin it. I'll only have it done if my state requires it in order to renew the registration.

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant
So. My car is on the list for this. People are recoiling in fear from the effects of the recall, but no one seems to have said how much it'll actually affect performance - does anybody know that yet?

I mean, I'd like to be able to make my car burn cleaner, because it's more people than me who are affected by this.

Nevergirls
Jul 4, 2004

It's not right living this way, not letting others know what's true and what's false.
I got a letter from VW "in cooperation with" the EPA for an ECU update in April (and it was not sufficiently scarily worded, because I didn't take it in) so there have to be people on the road with un-defeat-deviced ECUs already. Someone must have noticed their performance or milage take a poo poo afterward.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

dissss posted:

Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine.

They make a lot more sense in big executive cars and SUVs

:colbert: Blasphemer. 50 MPG is not 'marginally better'

bizwank
Oct 4, 2002

Nevergirls posted:

I got a letter from VW "in cooperation with" the EPA for an ECU update in April (and it was not sufficiently scarily worded, because I didn't take it in) so there have to be people on the road with un-defeat-deviced ECUs already. Someone must have noticed their performance or milage take a poo poo afterward.
That first ECU flash was an attempt by VAG to explain away the increased emissions by claiming they were caused by technical issues and/or unanticipated use scenarios. Only after that update failed to bring emissions back down to proper levels and they were threatened with their 2016 models getting black-listed did they come clean about the defeat device. There's no way that first flash took out the defeat device or they would have done it on the EPA's test cars too, and not gotten caught (in this way).

I had that first flash done and actually noticed an increase in responsiveness and smoother shifting, as did many other owners in these and other forums. I also saw reports of decreased MPG after the flash, though I don't really track this myself due to my 10 min commute.

keegles
Aug 24, 2013
I can almost guarantee that vw hasn't been activating the egr system, and it more or less forces readiness. My assumption on this is based off of the fact that pre common rail (08 and earlier) had issues with egr clogging up, then the newer common rail somehow hasn't.. Actually in the 5 years I've worked for vag, I've never seen an egr fault on a common rail.

However roommates work for bmw, and they have a number of diesels with blocked egr issues.

Egr does drop mpgs a tad, as well as power.

Also with it being a recall, nobody's forcing you to go in and have it flashed ;p

Good read
http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/diesel-engine-egr-bad/

keegles fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Sep 20, 2015

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi
I just crossed 50k miles in my 2010 GTI. I got it in June 2012 when it had 36k miles on it, so i'm averaging a bit over 4k miles/year, almost all of them in stop/go city driving. It's a 6-speed, I've done the 40k mile service and change the oil once/year, but haven't done anything beyond that. Is there anything beyond that I should be doing? It doesn't look like the next major service is until 60k miles which at this rate I won't hit for a while.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

I read that a class actin was filed in CA over this yesterday. I'm really bummed about it. We've got a 2014 TDI jetta that we've loved. I'm not exactly happy with the "don't ever get it updated" angle as driving something that pollutes that bad would grate on me in a bad way.

loving hell VW, I really liked that car. :smith:

Dick Trauma
Nov 30, 2007

God damn it, you've got to be kind.

VelociBacon posted:

Can't tell if you're kidding but for what it's worth it's all the assholes having 2+ kids that are going to ruin this planet. I was asking as a rhetorical question but FWIW I wouldn't bring my car in for it to become less fuel efficient when those vehicles are still way way way less harmful than a majority of the vehicles out there.

I was joking.

I hope this hits VW hard enough that they put on a huge sale when I'm ready to buy my next car.

Hashtag Banterzone
Dec 8, 2005


Lifetime Winner of the willkill4food Honorary Bad Posting Award in PWM

Cyrano4747 posted:

I read that a class actin was filed in CA over this yesterday. I'm really bummed about it. We've got a 2014 TDI jetta that we've loved. I'm not exactly happy with the "don't ever get it updated" angle as driving something that pollutes that bad would grate on me in a bad way.

loving hell VW, I really liked that car. :smith:

How bad is the pollution without the update? Is it just the EPA being overzealous compared to the EU? Or is it putting out some really bad stuff?

Uthor
Jul 9, 2006

Gummy Bear Heaven ... It's where I go when the world is too mean.

Residency Evil posted:

I just crossed 50k miles in my 2010 GTI. I got it in June 2012 when it had 36k miles on it, so i'm averaging a bit over 4k miles/year, almost all of them in stop/go city driving. It's a 6-speed, I've done the 40k mile service and change the oil once/year, but haven't done anything beyond that. Is there anything beyond that I should be doing? It doesn't look like the next major service is until 60k miles which at this rate I won't hit for a while.

Brake fluid every 2 years or so. Coolant probably around 60k. I changed the transmission oil and spark plugs at around 75k, though I don't think there's anything specified for those. I'm pretty sure those have a timing chain, so no interval for replacing that, though there might be some inspection that should be preformed.

bizwank
Oct 4, 2002

Cyrano4747 posted:

I read that a class actin was filed in CA over this yesterday. I'm really bummed about it. We've got a 2014 TDI jetta that we've loved. I'm not exactly happy with the "don't ever get it updated" angle as driving something that pollutes that bad would grate on me in a bad way.
Here's the firm that filed it if you want to join: http://www.hbsslaw.com/newsroom/Hagens-Berman-Investigating-Volkswagen-Audi-for-Emissions-Cheating-Software-Polluting-Cars

Hashtag Banterzone posted:

How bad is the pollution without the update? Is it just the EPA being overzealous compared to the EU? Or is it putting out some really bad stuff?
In normal driving (ie. not in super-clean EPA test mode) they put out 10-40x the amount of NOx allowed by EPA standards. That is really bad stuff.

Edit: Here's the EPA report, these and other similar questions are answered in it: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

bizwank fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Sep 20, 2015

Lord of Garbagemen
Jan 28, 2014

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

bizwank posted:

Here's the firm that filed it if you want to join: http://www.hbsslaw.com/newsroom/Hagens-Berman-Investigating-Volkswagen-Audi-for-Emissions-Cheating-Software-Polluting-Cars

In normal driving (ie. not in super-clean EPA test mode) they put out 10-40x the amount of NOx allowed by EPA standards. That is really bad stuff.

Edit: Here's the EPA report, these and other similar questions are answered in it: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

bennyfactor posted:

Here's probably why they did it— for diesels, the EU regs target low Oxides of Nitrogen and Carbon Monoxide production, and don't even care about non-methane organic compounds. The EPA average of Tier 2 (Bin 5) has a stark limit on NMOG, even lower than the limit for Euro V petrol engines; the EPA limits on the values Europe cares about are multiples higher.

You can see the data here but the units are incompatible; so I've converted the EPA rules to mg/km:



last page, 10- 40 times greater seems a bit extreme. Being that the EPA is a govt org. with a political agenda I would take everything they say with a ton of salt.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009


Fun Shoe

Lord of Garbagemen posted:

last page, 10- 40 times greater seems a bit extreme. Being that the EPA is a govt org. with a political agenda I would take everything they say with a ton of salt.

Bastards wanting to improve the quality of the air and water. It's my right as an American to pollute as much as I want and eat/drink/breathe whatever pollutants I want :bahgawd:

I've been trying to keep up with the tread on TDIClub and it's full of complete loving nuts. I know a few of my hobbies(cars and fishing mainly) have a lot of hardcore republican freep types, but god drat.

e: I really want to know where these fuckers claiming 50+mpg live. Downhill with a tailwind both ways at 45mph kind of stuff?

fknlo fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Sep 20, 2015

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD

fknlo posted:

e: I really want to know where these fuckers claiming 50+mpg live. Downhill with a tailwind both ways at 45mph kind of stuff?

Hyper-mileing assholes who follow literally a foot behind everything else on the road

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000

Bajaha posted:

Take a video. Whenever I had bullshit intermittent issues with my Hyundai, video proof made proving the issues to the dealer that much simpler.
Good idea. There's not much to see but at least it'll be able to record the sound.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug
I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn.

warcake
Apr 10, 2010
This seems to be a case of fudging it to pass lab/static emissions tests, cars are failing to meet emissions standards in europe too.

I guess VW were the first ones to get caught actually messing with it.

For the people worrying if your car is ruined, it isn't, most diesel cars can't stay under the emissions level outside a test environment in more strenuous conditions. Such as going up a hill.

Diesel vehicles are getting banned in Paris by 2020 apparently.

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_2014_factsheet_EN.pdf

Nevergirls
Jul 4, 2004

It's not right living this way, not letting others know what's true and what's false.

bizwank posted:

That first ECU flash was an attempt by VAG to explain away the increased emissions by claiming they were caused by technical issues and/or unanticipated use scenarios. Only after that update failed to bring emissions back down to proper levels and they were threatened with their 2016 models getting black-listed did they come clean about the defeat device. There's no way that first flash took out the defeat device or they would have done it on the EPA's test cars too, and not gotten caught (in this way).

I had that first flash done and actually noticed an increase in responsiveness and smoother shifting, as did many other owners in these and other forums. I also saw reports of decreased MPG after the flash, though I don't really track this myself due to my 10 min commute.
Well, poo poo.

keegles posted:

Egr does drop mpgs a tad, as well as power.
Also means more DPF cycles as it produces more soot.

CommieGIR posted:

I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn.
Easy on a highway with cooperative traffic. I stopped tracking mpg with fuelly, but according to the car itself I get about 45mpg overall.

bizwank
Oct 4, 2002

Lord of Garbagemen posted:

last page, 10- 40 times greater seems a bit extreme. Being that the EPA is a govt org. with a political agenda I would take everything they say with a ton of salt.
Here's the actual report from West Virginia U's Center for Alternative Fuels Engines and Emissions that prompted the EPA's investigatoin:

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

I didn't read the whole thing because it's the weekend but the summary says 5-35x allowed NOx from the two TDI VW's (test cars 1 & 2), and all those measurements were taken on a warm car so maybe the EPA adjusted that to be more realistic, ie. averaging in cold starts and short trips? Regardless, if keeping our finite amount of atmosphere healthy to be living in is a "political agenda" then it's one I fully support.

CommieGIR posted:

I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn.
When I had a longer, all-highway commute I could get 45 without trying, and 49-50 if I kept it at 60mph the whole way.

bizwank fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 20, 2015

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009


Fun Shoe

CommieGIR posted:

I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn.

What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

fknlo posted:

What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive.

My wife and I routinely get 40-43mpg driving from NC to Kentucky and NC to Florida. All we really do is stay ~70mph, nothing too special.

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



fknlo posted:

What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive.

That sounds terrible. In my 11 TDI I would regularly average tanks in the mid to high 30's on summer tires and driving down the 80mph toll.

bizwank
Oct 4, 2002

fknlo posted:

What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive.
As far as I understand it air resistance increases exponentially with speed, ie. the faster you go the harder the engine has to work to maintain speed and the more fuel you burn per mile. I believe the average automobile is most efficient at 55-60 mph, although specific models have been designed to reduce drag as much as possible in order to post really high mpg ratings, which is why the Prius looks so weird and many hybrids following it had basically the same shape. If you're regularly doing 70-75 on winter fuel then yeah you're going to get worse mpg then I do at 60 mph on standard diesel (I don't think we even get winter fuel in Seattle), and even worse if you're braking and accelerating a lot on that drive vs maintaining a steady speed.

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

bizwank posted:

As far as I understand it air resistance increases exponentially with speed, ie. the faster you go the harder the engine has to work to maintain speed and the more fuel you burn per mile. I believe the average automobile is most efficient at 55-60 mph, although specific models have been designed to reduce drag as much as possible in order to post really high mpg ratings, which is why the Prius looks so weird and many hybrids following it had basically the same shape. If you're regularly doing 70-75 on winter fuel then yeah you're going to get worse mpg then I do at 60 mph on standard diesel (I don't think we even get winter fuel in Seattle), and even worse if you're braking and accelerating a lot on that drive vs maintaining a steady speed.

All of this depends 100% on gearing. A more accurate statement would be that xyz engine is at it's most efficient at a specific %load at a specific RPM, and the car is then most efficient in it's highest gear at that load and RPM.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

CommieGIR posted:

:colbert: Blasphemer. 50 MPG is not 'marginally better'

Rated extra urban
2l TDI 110 - 4l/100km (58.8 mpg)
1.4l TSI 103 - 4.4l/100km (53.5 mpg)

Or course neither will get that outside of ideal conditions, but the margin of difference between them is pretty close to real world

Lord of Garbagemen
Jan 28, 2014

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

fknlo posted:

Bastards wanting to improve the quality of the air and water. It's my right as an American to pollute as much as I want and eat/drink/breathe whatever pollutants I want :bahgawd:

I've been trying to keep up with the tread on TDIClub and it's full of complete loving nuts. I know a few of my hobbies(cars and fishing mainly) have a lot of hardcore republican freep types, but god drat.

e: I really want to know where these fuckers claiming 50+mpg live. Downhill with a tailwind both ways at 45mph kind of stuff?

i get average 45 mixed and 52 or 53 on the highway.

Lord of Garbagemen fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 21, 2015

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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

dissss posted:

Rated extra urban
2l TDI 110 - 4l/100km (58.8 mpg)
1.4l TSI 103 - 4.4l/100km (53.5 mpg)

Or course neither will get that outside of ideal conditions, but the margin of difference between them is pretty close to real world

The TSI is a fairly new and expensive tech versus a common and proven TDI tech.

Yes, TSI can do it. With immense computerization and highly specialized tech. The TDI can do it mechanically.

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