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readingatwork posted:They also refuse to let the show evolve in any meaningful way. Jakes kids are probably the most egregious example but the one that pissed me off the most was them giving Fin his arm back. It was an awesome chance to explore Fin's character dealing with a dissability that they wasted because they were afraid to keep his character design changed for too long. Which is BS because people would have been stoked to see him running around with a robot arm. This is actually the exact thing I was talking about earlier. Anyone who thought that story arc was supposed to be about Finn having a super cool robot arm forever and ever was completely missing the point, and too caught up in cosmetic changes and bullshit lore speculation to see the bigger picture.
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Sep 27, 2015 23:00
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HorseRenoir posted:This is actually the exact thing I was talking about earlier. Anyone who thought that story arc was supposed to be about Finn having a super cool robot arm forever and ever was completely missing the point, and too caught up in cosmetic changes and bullshit lore speculation to see the bigger picture. So what exactly is the Bigger Picture supposed to be then, cause I can't see anything coherent and haven't for a long time
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Sep 27, 2015 23:18
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I don't actually give a poo poo about the dumb foreshadowing about the robot arm or whatever, I just think it's really loving bad that they tore his arm off and then he grows a new one three episodes later. Please enlighten me as to what the "bigger picture" there is. e: like, it's certainly not helped by Breezy being one of the aforementioned indecipherable episodes I don't like. Arist fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 23:44
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HorseRenoir posted:This is actually the exact thing I was talking about earlier. Anyone who thought that story arc was supposed to be about Finn having a super cool robot arm forever and ever was completely missing the point, and too caught up in cosmetic changes and bullshit lore speculation to see the bigger picture. It was bad storytelling. Not because Fin didn't get a cool robot arm (though I really wanted it and all the "lore" seemed to foreshadow that he would), and not because they sacrificed plot and lore for subtext and symbolism (which they did). It was bad because it broke the fundamental rule of storytelling that it's more interesting to watch a character struggle than it is to watch them succeed. You as a writer ALWAYS make the protagonist's situation harder for them (unless the story is ending or your setting them up for a fall). Fin loosing his arm limited him and fundamentally changed the way the show would progress, which by extension made both him and the show more interesting. Having him be magically healed not only undid all of that but also had the side effect of projecting the message "We're complete pussies and are afraid to have real consequences for our character's actions". So yeah, gently caress that decision. And no, it doesn't matter if this was designed to serve some deeper symbolic metaphor. Characters and narrative are like the foundation of a story's house. If they're not strong from the get-go anything you build on top will inevitably fall apart. drrockso20 posted:So what exactly is the Bigger Picture supposed to be then, cause I can't see anything coherent and haven't for a long time I think it's supposed to be a metaphor for the pain he felt loosing his Dad? Though if that's the case it falls apart because you don't actually "heal" those kind of inner wounds much like you don't actually "heal" a severed arm. You just sort of cope and learn to make the best of the situation. Hey! You know what would have been a really good symbol of both Fin coming to terms with his jerky dad and his lost body part? A loving ROBOT ARM!!1!! readingatwork fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 00:03
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There are guidelines for storytelling, but there are no rules.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:27
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juniperjones posted:There are guidelines for storytelling, but there are no rules. Obviously there are times that skilled writers can ignore generally accepted writing conventions and get away with it. This was not one of those times.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:34
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Whenever I watch anything Rebecca Sugar is involved in it reminds of that piss wizard comic KC Green did only with Tumblr poo poo instead of watersports.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:35
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readingatwork posted:It was bad storytelling. Not because Fin didn't get a cool robot arm (though I really wanted it and all the "lore" seemed to foreshadow that he would), and not because they sacrificed plot and lore for subtext and symbolism (which they did). It was bad because it broke the fundamental rule of storytelling that it's more interesting to watch a character struggle than it is to watch them succeed. You as a writer ALWAYS make the protagonist's situation harder for them (unless the story is ending or your setting them up for a fall). Fin loosing his arm limited him and fundamentally changed the way the show would progress, which by extension made both him and the show more interesting. Having him be magically healed not only undid all of that but also had the side effect of projecting the message "We're complete pussies and are afraid to have real consequences for our character's actions". So yeah, gently caress that decision. Finn losing his arm wasn't the beginning of a new conflict/arc for Finn. On the contrary, it was the climax of an ongoing arc that had been going on for several seasons (technically even longer). I'm on my phone so I don't want to type that much but the tl;dr version is that the arc is primarily about Finn maturing as a person and becoming self-reliant. The climax of Breezy isn't "yay he has his arm back!", it's "Finn realizes that he no longer needs validation from his father or from other women in his life, and by recognizing what he truly wants in life, he can find true happiness". Finn's arm is merely a visual metaphor for his growth through the series, with the amputation itself being purely metaphorical and temporary.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:56
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HorseRenoir posted:Finn losing his arm wasn't the beginning of a new conflict/arc for Finn. On the contrary, it was the climax of an ongoing arc that had been going on for several seasons (technically even longer). I'm on my phone so I don't want to type that much but the tl;dr version is that the arc is primarily about Finn maturing as a person and becoming self-reliant. The climax of Breezy isn't "yay he has his arm back!", it's "Finn realizes that he no longer needs validation from his father or from other women in his life, and by recognizing what he truly wants in life, he can find true happiness". Finn's arm is merely a visual metaphor for his growth through the series, with the amputation itself being purely metaphorical and temporary. That's a really terrible metaphor for your argument, because the change in his arm over the course of the arc (it gets cut off like his relationship with his dad) is completely reverted back to what it was at the beginning of it. Even though his relationship with his dad isn't repaired. It's actually a perfect metaphor for what I'm trying to say My problem is that the resolutions of the character arcs are incredibly shallow, and don't at all live up to the grand overtures the show made about them. Most of them are completely resolved in about 30 seconds of dialogue at the end of an episode and are then never spoken of again in subsequent episodes. And lots of times they can't even really be accurately described as 'resolved' at all, his relationship with Flame Princess is basically just dropped at the end of that arc, I guess because the writers realized they had written themselves into a corner and didn't know how to proceed? That after spending the entire loving season building up that relationship (and the season before that on his relationship with PB, which was unresolved and just transferred over to FP) The arc with his dad is the exact same thing. A multi-episode story arc with overtures of being epic in tone and scale ends with Finn saying "Oh OK. I'm fine now" w/r/t his relationship with his dad, and then the next episode is completely unrelated and his dad disappears off into the aether for a few dozen episodes It's astonishing how much they do this, and they keep doing it. Wiki says the next season is starting with an 8 part miniseries.  . Does anyone actually think that they won't just start to tell a story, meander off, say "gently caress it", wrap things up in 3 lines of dialogue at the very end of an episode, and then never speak of those events again? Because that's what the show has been doing over and over and over again for seasons nowMrAristocrates posted:I don't actually give a poo poo about the dumb foreshadowing about the robot arm or whatever, I just think it's really loving bad that they tore his arm off and then he grows a new one three episodes later. Please enlighten me as to what the "bigger picture" there is. People describe them as 'indecipherable' or similar a lot but I think a better, more explanatory description is that there's nothing there to begin with. You're trying to read meaningful character growth and/or storytelling into something that's 100% empty dialogue and tonal posturing, and of course you can't make heads or tails of it. The show is really good at tricking people and AV Club reviewers into thinking there's something there, but there's nothing icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 01:09
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But Flame Princess has still been appearing and in fact has taken one of the candy characters to be her right hand man?
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Sep 28, 2015 01:12
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Acne Rain posted:But Flame Princess has still been appearing and in fact has taken one of the candy characters to be her right hand man? I haven't watched the show for a while, but she was definitely gone for a good long time, and anyways the point is that the character arc it was building up to was just written out of the show and never spoken of again after the writers figured out that there was no way to end it that would live up to what they'd built it up as icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 01:21
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Gaunab posted:Do you guys work for AVclub? Nah, I just want the show to pick either humorous weird everyday life or Gravity Falls/Steven Universe serious themes and stick to one of them. My problem is that it meanders around both and accomplishes neither. You can have focus and be wacky or comedic like Star Versus the Forces of Evil or Teen Titans Go, you just have to pick and stick to that theme. However, that doesn't mean every episode has to be whatever that focused tone is. You can have serious parts of a finale or mix up some lighthearted episodes after dropping a big emotional bomb a few episodes earlier, just as long as they follow the beats of the tone that you've set or else you can get confusing messes like Breezy that baffles every type of fan you can have. Or worse, the Mort three way romance from Regular Show that JUST WON'T STOP. I'm not looking to make it a masterpiece of animation, I just want it to give me a reason to take the time to watch it as I have a big selection of good shows that I know what they will give me to pick from if the bears just want to meander around in meme jokes.
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Sep 28, 2015 01:28
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icantfindaname posted:My problem is that the resolutions of the character arcs feel incredibly shallow, and don't at all live up to the grand overtures the show made about them. Most of these arcs are completely resolved in about 30 seconds of dialogue at the end of an 11 minute episode and are then never spoken of again in subsequent episodes. And that's if they even get resolved at all, his relationship with Flame Princess was literally just dropped and the character not seen again in dozens of episodes, I guess because the writers realized they had written themselves into a corner and didn't know how to proceed? After spending the entire loving season building up that relationship, the character is written out of the show and never seen again. And yet you still get people singing the praises of the show about how deep and well written the characters are The characters are well written. At least they were through the first five seasons or so (it's kind of hit or miss lately). The problem is show's handling of the larger narrative. They're pretty clearly not planning this stuff out in advance and it's starting to bite them in the rear end. They also seem to want to have this grand overarching plot while at the same time keeping the show basically the same all the time, which just doesn't work. HorseRenoir posted:Finn losing his arm wasn't the beginning of a new conflict/arc for Finn. On the contrary, it was the climax of an ongoing arc that had been going on for several seasons (technically even longer). I'm on my phone so I don't want to type that much but the tl;dr version is that the arc is primarily about Finn maturing as a person and becoming self-reliant. The climax of Breezy isn't "yay he has his arm back!", it's "Finn realizes that he no longer needs validation from his father or from other women in his life, and by recognizing what he truly wants in life, he can find true happiness". Finn's arm is merely a visual metaphor for his growth through the series, with the amputation itself being purely metaphorical and temporary. It absolutely was the beginning of a new arc (the arc being him coming to terms with his father being a dick). An arc given extra emotional weight by episodes like "Fin the Human" that imply his loosing his arm is of cosmic importance. It was basically the narrative equivalent of the writers throwing up a flashing sign with the words "poo poo IS ABOUT TO GO DOWN!" on it. And then... they really didn't do anything with it. A few episodes later he makes out with a bunch of girls to dull the pain, sings a weird song with a bee, sees the BP in a vision, and then his arm just grows back for no reason. He's not even really over his Dad, that happens at the end of the sixth season with the whole Orgalorg thing. What's the takeaway here? The best I can come up with is "Making out with a bunch of girls won't make you happy, you should start trying to pursue a girl you already know won't go for you instead!" Now that I think about it his arm growing back might have actually worked had they held out and written it into the Orgalorg finale. Fin would have actually earned it then, which he certainly didn't do in Breezy.
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Sep 28, 2015 02:22
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readingatwork posted:The characters are well written. At least they were through the first five seasons or so (it's kind of hit or miss lately). The problem is show's handling of the larger narrative. They're pretty clearly not planning this stuff out in advance and it's starting to bite them in the rear end. They also seem to want to have this grand overarching plot while at the same time keeping the show basically the same all the time, which just doesn't work. I edited my post a bunch because I have no impulse control, but I don't actually agree they're well written, at least not Finn. There are side characters that are well written, but Finn himself is incredibly lacking in character depth. All of his relationships with other characters seem empty. He interacts with everyone around him in the same way, whether they're PB, Jake, his dad, monsters, villagers, whatever. He doesn't get meaningfully upset at his dad or when he breaks up with FP, he never seems exceptionally joyful beyond the normal veneer of being a cool bro or whatever. Like compare Finn's breakups in this show with the breakups in Steven Universe, and try to tell me with a straight face that AT does a better job with them. It's hilarious how sharp the contrast is, considering how AT sells itself as a heavy hitter emotional show Finn's arcs feel to me like they have no emotional core, they're incredibly shallow and superficial and they just don't work for producing the kind of heavy emotional beats the show keeps banking on. This is why Steven Universe succeeds and this show fails, basically icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 02:41
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I don't know, Finn doesn't get ridiculously depressed to the point of trying to draw all attention to his tragedy. When he does get depressed, he just tends to get quieter and deals with all of his problems via active aggression: beating the poo poo out of everything. I mean, yeah, that's not going to be as melodramatic as Pearl basically screaming to the sky about Rose not getting it on with her, but Finn's far from dull. He just keeps it light and on the occasion where violence isn't doing it for him, he gets inquisitive about dealing with his problems, like the time he became Davey. That said, I got to agree, the show's general character development tries reaching for something big constantly and then just falls flat on its face. In particular, Finn's dad was just put on a one way bus to never coming back and without really any fanfare. The show's never really been big on a singular direction, but if it's trying to go for that with at least few ongoing plots, it needs to get centralized better.
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Sep 28, 2015 02:50
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I always thought that the character development in Adventure time was purposely designed to be obtuse so that you never really get true insight into what's going on inside a character's head beyond a little mumbled small talk.
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Sep 28, 2015 03:18
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SlothfulCobra posted:Adventure Time doesn't seem like it was ever really meant to have lore, continuity, and backstory. It just sort of mutated into it over time as things kept building up. 
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Sep 28, 2015 03:41
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icantfindaname posted:I edited my post a bunch because I have no impulse control, but I don't actually agree they're well written, at least not Finn. There are side characters that are well written, but Finn himself is incredibly lacking in character depth. All of his relationships with other characters seem empty. He interacts with everyone around him in the same way, whether they're PB, Jake, his dad, monsters, villagers, whatever. He doesn't get meaningfully upset at his dad or when he breaks up with FP, he never seems exceptionally joyful beyond the normal veneer of being a cool bro or whatever. Like compare Finn's breakups in this show with the breakups in Steven Universe, and try to tell me with a straight face that AT does a better job with them. It's hilarious how sharp the contrast is, considering how AT sells itself as a heavy hitter emotional show Your not... wrong. I think Fin functioned better as a protagonist earlier on when the show was more comedy driven. He was charming, funny, kicked lots of rear end, and didn't really NEED to be anything more than that. The problems came later when tried to make him deeper so that the series could have an ongoing story. His girl troubles were particularly problematic because they turn him into kind of a dick. And yeah, SU beats AT hands down. Though I'd still argue that early AT is more "entertaining" thanks to it's creativity and a particularly great sense of energy and humor. In fact I'd argue that sense of humor is why so many people didn't notice/care about the show's flaws for so long. Hell, I STILL laugh when I think of the line "How did I even get here, son!?" readingatwork fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 03:45
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icantfindaname posted:My problem is that the resolutions of the character arcs are incredibly shallow, and don't at all live up to the grand overtures the show made about them. Most of them are completely resolved in about 30 seconds of dialogue at the end of an episode and are then never spoken of again in subsequent episodes. And lots of times they can't even really be accurately described as 'resolved' at all, his relationship with Flame Princess is basically just dropped at the end of that arc, I guess because the writers realized they had written themselves into a corner and didn't know how to proceed? That after spending the entire loving season building up that relationship (and the season before that on his relationship with PB, which was unresolved and just transferred over to FP) The arc with his dad is the exact same thing. A multi-episode story arc with overtures of being epic in tone and scale ends with Finn saying "Oh OK. I'm fine now" w/r/t his relationship with his dad, and then the next episode is completely unrelated and his dad disappears off into the aether for a few dozen episodes What? Like the entire season after he broke up with Flame Princess was him not dealing well with his breakup with flame princess. There were so many episodes dealing with it that people complained about it.Like the entire show since his breakup with flame princess has been flavored by that. It comes up again and again and again and again and recently I thought he had finally gotten over it when he reached really low point with LSP, and then later it came up again. I get there are things that people don't like about the show and it suffers compared to SU because that show was actually planned out from the beginning but saying the Flame Princess thing was dropped as soon as it was over is flatout incorrect and honestly makes me wonder what show you were watching. Also saying the thing with his dad has been dropped is weird because it just finished in the last aired episode, so there's no way to actually know if it will play out in the long run. The PB thing is still ongoing as well. I dunno, I feel like there's just no satisfying everybody anyways. A lot of the complaints I see seem to center around them not going on random little adventures anymore and too much world building, while you seem to be annoyed that they spend too much time taking a break from the world building to go off on random other little adventures. I do agree that the show isn't what it was and sometimes it falters but I also think some of the best episodes it's have have been fairly recent. As was said, it's just a show that does whatever it wants. It doesn't always succeed but it's always interesting to see what it's going for. The episode that recently won an Emmy over SU did deserve that Emmy.
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Sep 28, 2015 05:42
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All this talk about which cartoon has better storytelling, continuity, and relationships between characters makes me thankful for stuff like Clarence and We Bare Bears (as well as this current season of Regular Show, which hasn't ventured into the love triangle plotline that was beaten to death last season... at least, not yet). There will always be room for shows like that on kids' TV, where you don't have to emotionally invest yourself in all the little plot points and can just sit down and watch.
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Sep 28, 2015 07:32
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SlothfulCobra posted:Adventure Time doesn't seem like it was ever really meant to have lore, continuity, and backstory. It just sort of mutated into it over time as things kept building up. At its core, it's supposed to be just a bunch of short, wacky, adventures, not a grand dramatic epic quest. The writers have been using all these tricks to try to downgrade the drama of the narrative even when they have the entire galaxy under threat from the most ancient of evils. People who want to see a dramatic story are bound to be frustrated, because the writers are directly snubbing them. Really? I agree that the show, at its inception at least, didn't ever seem like it was supposed to have lore or anything. I mean, aside from winking jokes/references to past events that we'll never see. But where you think people are being snubbed I think the problem is that the writers keep indulging them too much. As the show's gone on, it seems like every little thing has to be expanded on more and more, as if some insane AT wiki editor is holding the writers room hostage. I mean, was there really a need for an episode explaining the dramatic origins of the Ice King's crown? Or why he calls all his penguins by one name? Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, sometimes a joke is a joke, they're not mysteries waiting to be solved. And a quick gag about a penguin being the most evil being in the universe is not a loving Chekhov's Gun god drat did i hate that last season finale wait sorry i'm losing my train of thought. I understand why the writers want to make dramatic stuff happen, I do. The world's basically a fantasy sandbox where magic and all kinds of poo poo can happen, and all sorts of vague poo poo in the past already has happened, so it's open season on all sorts of madness. But the thing is, it's an 11 minute cartoon show founded on gags about a boy and his (magic) dog, it's not a format that lends itself to grand epics. (Plus, to be super-cynical about dramatic finales being undone, AT has become really popular for CN, merchandising wise. Finn was never gonna lose that arm for good. Until the series finale, Ice King will never stop being Ice King.) Corek posted:All the old Star animators were conscripted to help work on the new Lion King show Disney's working on (which visually looks AMAZING, by the way, due to the huge budget and staff.) I didn't like that clip too much at the start then I kinda thought as it went on "okay fine it's just not a show for me at least it's well drawn" and then the lion got a loving cutie mark or some poo poo at the end and I immediately just went NOOOPE.
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Sep 28, 2015 07:39
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I think Finn losing his arm was just pulled back for practical reasons. It's always been a show where the individual writer/director can do whatever they want with any given episode and having a character lose an arm kind of limits a lot of things. I can see why people would be aggravated if they were expecting a whole plotline about Finn learning to deal with a new disability, but I also don't think that was actually ever the plan. I think in general most of the plotlines that seemed like they were quickly swept under the rug have either continued or just used that in ways people weren't expecting. I was also kind of pissed when they immediately re-aged PB, but in the long run that served to give Finn a moment where he was on equal ground with PB and then lost it, which kind of pushed his kind of hero of the story romance into teen angst territory. I think the problem is that unless you plan it well and you have a central vision, it's really hard to push a plot forward in 15 minute increments and it's almost impossible when half the time the people making episodes have no interest in doing that. It creates this odd thing where plots unfold at a very slow pace and at the same time major plot events which simultaneously need a lot of time but need to be expressed in a single episode seem to just be rushed. In general it's gone from a show that is just silly whatever, to a show you have to be really patient with and I can see how that aggravates a lot of people. Like the Betty episode wasn't very good because it felt really rushed, they had way too much stuff to get through and they only had a single episode to do it in. However even that is sort of going in an interesting direction with stuff they've done in later episodes so later looking back that episode might work better.
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Sep 28, 2015 07:56
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Ramos posted:I don't know, Finn doesn't get ridiculously depressed to the point of trying to draw all attention to his tragedy. When he does get depressed, he just tends to get quieter and deals with all of his problems via active aggression: beating the poo poo out of everything. I mean, yeah, that's not going to be as melodramatic as Pearl basically screaming to the sky about Rose not getting it on with her, but Finn's far from dull. He just keeps it light and on the occasion where violence isn't doing it for him, he gets inquisitive about dealing with his problems, like the time he became Davey. the thing is, Finn's been depressed for like 90% of all the episodes since he broke up with Phoebe, and he hasn't even been engaging in a lot of violence lately(and like 80% of the time he even gets into a fight anymore he gets his rear end handed to him almost immediately when in the early seasons he was pretty consistently portrayed as one of the most competent fighters in all of Ooo who didn't use magic or some such), the problem is that Finn's been BORING for the majority of the time since then, and a boring main character is a horrible albatross for a cartoon to bear
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Sep 28, 2015 10:38
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readingatwork posted:Hell, I STILL laugh when I think of the line "How did I even get here, son!?" The only thing I have to contribute to this conversation is that my wife and I still quote Big D all the time. "Wasteland-style".
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Sep 28, 2015 17:56
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https://www.facebook.com/CartoonNetwork/videos/10153144068478372/?permPage=1 So...this was just posted to CN's Facebook. What the gently caress... it's pretty much Scooby-Doo Family Guy style... Hopefully it's funny or something. Though, I don't know if they'll be able to top Mystery Incorporated...if they even want to.
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Sep 28, 2015 19:04
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Adventure Time peaked with 'I Remember You," imo.
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Sep 28, 2015 19:16
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I still like adventure time.
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Sep 28, 2015 21:00
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Gaunab posted:I still like adventure time. So do I, believe it or not.
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Sep 28, 2015 21:17
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at is hugely flawed but that's the price of trying something new, so I don't mind
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Sep 28, 2015 21:23
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ThermoPhysical posted:https://www.facebook.com/CartoonNetwork/videos/10153144068478372/?permPage=1 Fred and Shaggy in particular look like they hired the Penny Arcade guys to draw a Scooby Doo parody.
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Sep 28, 2015 22:14
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I thought shaggy in particular looks like he belongs in a loss edit.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:33
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I said it last time it came up but man Velma looks like Meg Griffin.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:37
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The Skeleton King posted:I thought shaggy in particular looks like he belongs in a loss edit. Like, sometimes it's just as hard on the scooby snack as it is on the scoob!
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Sep 29, 2015 01:22
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That art style is so off-putting. There must be one overly-aggressive suit at Cartoon Network in charge of these reboots who thinks everything would be profitable if it were just a copy of Family Guy.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:58
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Corek posted:All the old Star animators were conscripted to help work on the new Lion King show Disney's working on (which visually looks AMAZING, by the way, due to the huge budget and staff.) What the hell, Disney? Why did I bother writing "Original Character, do not steal!" on all those Deviantart posts if you were just going to copy my design for a red haired lion cub??
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Sep 30, 2015 15:00
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https://www.facebook.com/CartoonNetwork/videos/10153147363988372/ Another Be Cool, Scooby-Doo clip. I'm pretty sure this is what would happen if Seth MacFarlane made Scooby-Doo. Exactly what would happen.
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Sep 30, 2015 22:24
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Being embarrassing, poorly-animated trash makes it pretty faithful to the Scooby-Doo brand as a whole.
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Oct 1, 2015 00:46
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Sleeveless posted:Being embarrassing, poorly-animated trash makes it pretty faithful to the Scooby-Doo brand as a whole. Mystery Incorporated wasn't that bad.
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Oct 1, 2015 00:58
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Haha, yeah, the fact that there are people commenting on these videos as if there is some grand "Scooby Doo legacy" being tarnished here is laughable. It's no coincidence that they're also the ones bitching about TTG. "First CN ruins Teen Titans, now Scooby Doo" 
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Oct 1, 2015 01:00
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Mystery Incorporated is pretty much the best Scooby-Doo ever and I refuse to believe otherwise.  That being said, there's no "tarnishing" here since CN clearly didn't want MI anyway. Even the creators were confused as to what they were doing with the scheduling.
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Oct 1, 2015 01:02
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