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I think their exact goal was to avoid D&D wizards who are useless for a majority of the game
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Sep 28, 2015 17:34
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I just fought the Adra Dragon for the first time. After reloading about 10 times to work out a strategy to kill the Alpine Dragon, I was expecting a nightmare and thought I'd just run it once without preparation to see what I'm facing. Eder ran up and hit it with knockdown on the first attack. It never got up again. I wasn't expecting the adragans and they gave me a scare with returning storm, but it didn't matter in the end. Give Aloth enough time to set himself up and he can win any fight by himself. I thought I remember reading before the game was released that Obsidian was trying to avoid caster supremacy, but it exists in full force in this game. Especially with the expansion. Ninagauth's shadowflame is simply bonkers. I'm amazed that spell was allowed to exist at all. And I just hit level 13 and I haven't even started chapter 3 yet, so I imagine the rest of the game will consist of Aloth casting fireball until everything is dead. Wait where do you get the spell Ninagauth's Shadowflame? I know you get a special spell from Concelhaut. Casters are pretty powerful Druids, Priest, and a Wizard if you get in a bad situation can absolutely go nuts with Iconic Project , Seals, then all the other stuff.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:44
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Hollismason posted:Wait where do you get the spell Ninagauth's Shadowflame? I know you get a special spell from Concelhaut. Casters are pretty powerful Druids, Priest, and a Wizard if you get in a bad situation can absolutely go nuts with Iconic Project , Seals, then all the other stuff. You can find Ninagauth's spellbook in the White March, it has a bunch of pretty OP spells in it. It's hidden in a snowbank near Durgan's Battery if I remember correctly. You'd need to be scouting around to find it.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:53
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Weird I found that in my last game and it didn't have poo poo in it. Apparently it's a bug or something. I'll go back and find it i have the note. A fireball that does paralyze is pretty great. I've got Devil equipped with the Lance Tall in whatever that causes knockdown when it crits and increases Crit chance. Pretty insane. Also, went for Riposte so I could maybe get it that to activate.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:57
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Has anyone played with spelltongue much? It seems like a really cool unique weapon. The speed boost stacks with the boost from other sources (or from swift strikes, at least). It took me a while to figure out what the game meant by stealing duration from beneficial effects, but it seems it decreases the enemy's effects by 5% on each hit and increases the duration of your effects by 5% per hit. Swift strikes never runs out as long as you keep hitting things with the rapier. Now I'm trying to think of a class that has limited, but very powerful short duration effects that you can prolong indefinitely with spelltongue. It might be really good with a barbarian for permanent frenzy and AoE slow on every hit.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:03
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Rascyc posted:I think their exact goal was to avoid D&D wizards who are useless for a majority of the game That makes sense. However, the power curve is quite similar to D&D, but perhaps not quite so steep. The wizard still goes from occasionally contributing significantly to a fight while otherwise being useless to more or less winning every fight by himself. And we haven't even hit the levels at which wizards were completely absurd in BG2. If the trend continues as it has in the next expansion, casters will become even more absurdly powerful in comparison to other classes. It's an inevitable result of the number of abilities they get. What's more, because low level spells never stop being useful (which is good), per encounter spells get more and more ridiculous. If level four spells become per encounter, shadowflame will be able to win practically every fight in the game by itself. This all sounds very negative, but actually I think the class design is one of the strongest aspects of this game. However, I do think Obsidian was far too conservative with the abilities they gave other classes compared to caster classes. Consider binding roots: 5 per rest fast casting stucks. It doesn't sound that bad, but compare it with what wizards get at the same level. Slicken alone outclasses it by an enormous margin, you can cast slicken more times per encounter rather than you can cast binding roots per rest, it's far more powerful, you have access to quite a few other very powerful abilities like fan of flames and chill fog also per encounter and that's not even to mention your per rest abilities. I don't think rangers are weak at all, but they don't get anything that can shape the outcome of a fight like a wizard. My personal, it's late at night and I really should be going to bed opinion is that for fighter classes to stand up to casters, they need far more active abilities and casters need far fewer. I think the grimoire should limit wizard to 6-8 spells total. As it is, you have no reason to switch grimoires ever. Priests and Druids should also have restrictions on the number of spells they can access. Other classes active abilities at mid-high levels need to have much more impact, need to consistently stack with caster buffs (this is a particularly absurd point of the current design) and need to be per encounter or even at will for low impact active skills. As it is, wizards, priests and druids, and wizards most of all, get such a gigantic toolbox that as the game progresses, they win fights all by themselves more and more while the rest of your party stands around taking hits for the wizard (who actually can tank better than all of them if he feels like it). Ravenfood posted:I think a front-line Cipher would work okay with it if you're using some of the other stat-stealing powers like Psychovampiric Shield or Borrowed Instinct, plus attack speed is always nice for more focus-gain. I don't know whether they'd be better with that than dual sabres or an Estoc (especially the soulbound one) though. Maybe I'll try it for my next run. I thought about that. I love ciphers in concept, but every melee cipher I've tried just instantly explodes as soon as something looks at him funny and I end up simply using the same powers over and over again every fight. Maybe I'll eventually try making a cipher with spelltongue and a buckler that can actually stand toe to toe in melee combat, but for now monks are still my favorite, for whatever reason.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:19
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I'm thinking of making Team Machine from Person of Interest for my next playthrough on hard or maybe PotD difficulty. Finch and Reese are easy: Wizard and Paladin respectively, but I'm not sure about the rest. Root as priest and Shaw as Thief/Assassin? Carter might work as another Paladin, but I am completely stumped as to Fusco. Any ideas/more interesting yet fitting classes?
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Sep 28, 2015 18:34
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In order for fighters to be remotely comparable to wizards they need to unlock every combat style modal based on level instead of having to choose one them as a talent. The mundane classes lack anything approaching the versatility the casters get as standard.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:39
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Rianlee posted:I'm thinking of making Team Machine from Person of Interest for my next playthrough on hard or maybe PotD difficulty. Finch and Reese are easy: Wizard and Paladin respectively, but I'm not sure about the rest. Root as priest and Shaw as Thief/Assassin? Carter might work as another Paladin, but I am completely stumped as to Fusco. Reese - Fighter, paladin would also make sense but Reese is always the guy getting shot up and fighting on despite his wounds, which fits Fighter pretty well imo. For the same reason monk might also work, he loves to kung fu almost as much as he likes grenade launchers. Carter - Paladin, more of an idealist and died for the cause. Not so keen on the vigilantism at the start so makes more sense as a paladin imo. Finch - Wizard Root - Priest or Cipher? Priest makes most sense imo and would be best for balance if you played on PotD. But as a hacker, cipher makes sense too. Shaw - Ranger, wolf pet named Bear. Might make better sense as a rogue but come on you need Bear Fusco - Rogue or Barbarian. Has a shady past edited for brief explanations sassassin posted:In order for fighters to be remotely comparable to wizards they need to unlock every combat style modal based on level instead of having to choose one them as a talent. The mundane classes lack anything approaching the versatility the casters get as standard. There are just way too many passive abilities and talents that enhance passive abilities and they are mostly boring and small numbers. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 18:47
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Thank you for the ideas! I didn't consider monk at all, and yes, Bear has to get in on the fun too.
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Sep 28, 2015 19:06
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They should limit casters to like... 5-6 casts per encounter, with no limits on resting. Part of the reason why casters are so powerful is that you can conserve spells on all the trash fights and then blow your entire spell load in one encounter. It makes it impossible to really balance them because their offensive pressure can range from "weapon hits with no supporting skills" to "literally casts 100% of the fight".
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Sep 28, 2015 19:17
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Yeah I just found the spell they were talking about and it makes all fights ridiculously easy. Sneak Up Cast Paralysing Fireball, Follow with Chill Fog, Have Hiravias cast Maggots and other debuffs. Recast Paralysing Fireball. Icon Projections, Debuff. Dead. Killed a group of 11 ogres and like 5 wolves doing that and I didn't even attack them in HtH everyone just shot guns.
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Sep 28, 2015 19:43
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Rianlee posted:I'm thinking of making Team Machine from Person of Interest for my next playthrough on hard or maybe PotD difficulty. Finch and Reese are easy: Wizard and Paladin respectively, but I'm not sure about the rest. Root as priest and Shaw as Thief/Assassin? Carter might work as another Paladin, but I am completely stumped as to Fusco. If Fusco isn't a bumbling drunken dwarven thief (with low stealth who frequently gets seen) then you dun hosed up.
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Sep 28, 2015 20:50
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Digital_Jesus posted:If Fusco isn't a bumbling drunken dwarven thief (with low stealth who frequently gets seen) then you dun hosed up. but... he's sober he drinks club soda drunken dwarf thief would work for pre-reformed HR dirty cop Fusco though
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Sep 28, 2015 21:08
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Khizan posted:They should limit casters to like... 5-6 casts per encounter, with no limits on resting. Part of the reason why casters are so powerful is that you can conserve spells on all the trash fights and then blow your entire spell load in one encounter. It makes it impossible to really balance them because their offensive pressure can range from "weapon hits with no supporting skills" to "literally casts 100% of the fight". Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. The job of warriors is to grab aggro and then manage their abilities so as to not get hurt.
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Sep 28, 2015 21:13
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Alchenar posted:Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. The job of warriors is to grab aggro and then manage their abilities so as to not get hurt. Yeah at least warriors in Bioware games had lots of abilities, hell some of them even flashy! Compare it to how boring fighters are in PoE makes me sad
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Sep 28, 2015 21:18
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I like the Barbarian Class a lot. When I get up in level I still have some created adventurers I can make and I'm holding onto a lot of gear so gonna try a barbarian squad. Wizards and Druids really are terrible at the beginning levels and then at like level 9 it all goes down hill because your getting rings that give you more spells, extra spells, powerful AOE spells that only hit your enemies and cause stun. Also don't discount the combat mage because Spirit Shield, then the Spirit Lance is devastating. http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Citzal%27s_Martial_Power Hollismason fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 21:30
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Alchenar posted:Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. Knight-Enchanters
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Sep 28, 2015 21:37
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frajaq posted:Yeah at least warriors in Bioware games had lots of abilities, hell some of them even flashy! Compare it to how boring fighters are in PoE makes me sad Fighters though are by design made to emulate D&D fighters- who are pretty passive and easy to play. I think it was a good idea to have a throwback but I suspect they realized upon adding Sundering Blow that fighters needed another active beyond knockdown. Personally I think disciplined barrage should be redone as an actual attack ability with comparable merit to knockdown, as it's currently pretty useless and a noob trap. I think disciplined barrage should be a high damage skill and knockdown remains the same, meaning for the lower levels you're choosing damage or group utility, which is a common theme to the fighters skillset. Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 21:44
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Alchenar posted:Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. The job of warriors is to grab aggro and then manage their abilities so as to not get hurt. Arcane Warrior says hello! Also, the Sentinel from the Mass Effect games is both an omni-caster and an unkillable tank. The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage.
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Sep 28, 2015 22:18
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Yes but my Vancian caaasting
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Sep 28, 2015 22:28
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Khizan posted:Arcane Warrior says hello! Also, the Sentinel from the Mass Effect games is both an omni-caster and an unkillable tank. Yeah Mages can do the fightery thing but it requires a big talent investment that's mutually exclusive with other spell choices. While they're doing it they also can't really cast spells. But it isn't just about forcing Mages to make choices in character development while freeing them up in battle to use their abilities more, what Bioware have done with the concept of 'Guard' is a really great mechanic that gives Fighters something to do that Mages can't. Building and maintaining 'guard' is a way for fighters to 'tank' in a way that doesn't make them entirely reliant on magic users to do the healing bit that lets them soak damage. Having abilities that disrupt enemy guard gives them a role in combat that mages don't. There are certainly issues, but the basic concept of 'don't force Fighters and Mages into a straight competition on damage, give them mutually supporting roles in combat' is the right one. e: 'engagement' feels like step 1 of a 10 step plan to make front line fighters feel useful and important. Game needs the other steps though. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 22:54
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Fighters though are by design made to emulate D&D fighters- who are pretty passive and easy to play. e: Patch 2.02 is out now, btw. rope kid fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 22:57
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rope kid posted:e: Patch 2.02 is out now, btw. thanks kewl dude
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Sep 28, 2015 23:03
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rope kid posted:And wizards, druids, and priests were largely made to emulate their pre-4E equivalents. Per rest resources are enough of a problem that we are very likely to change how they work if we make a sequel. Just go full 4E IMO Per encounter/per rest abilities for all classes right from level 1, bam!
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Sep 28, 2015 23:14
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I think they could've done a better job by D&Ding their casters into specific schools of spells. That way a mage could have one to two schools he could cast all spells from, but has to use a talent point to take a tertiary-school spell.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:15
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I would have been much happier without the Vancian system, but I don't think caster supremacy is an issue as much as wizard supremacy. And that is to a large degree due to action denial (and how it interacts with the accuracy system) imo.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:28
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What spell is "paralyzing fireball"?
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Sep 28, 2015 23:57
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Ninagauth's Shadowflame.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:00
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Khizan posted:The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage. I don't find this is that big of a deal. There's 11 classes in PoE with varying resource systems, it's okay for asymmetrical power levels. As long as each class has a situation where they can shine, it's fine. It's an easy trap to try and bring every class to parity by giving them access to the same amount of stuff. Mages get 10 spells? Fighters should get 10 abilities. Buttons = awesome. With a large party limit like in PoE it's not necessary for every class to do a same amount of things, nor is it necessary for every class to be balanced at the same stuff compared to each other. As for Bioware, DA doesn't bother delving into multi-fight resource management the way PoE does. Fights can be balanced around everyone having being full strength, and everything's so great because all the edges are filed off. Over time, that same consistency and balance can end up being really bland. It strips away the emotional ups and downs of that long-term resource management; I'm no longer scraping by in a dungeon, trying to balance my spell conservation, hitpoints and consumables because I know I'll need all three for the last fight between me and the exit. So I don't have a problem with casters saving up their casts for the 'boss' fight. If you're doing that then you're basically playing with a 5-man party for the rest of the encounters and your combat effectiveness suffers accordingly. That's a trade-off you can choose to make and I think it's fine. It's also real cathartic to come to a boss at the end of the dungeon and unload everything you've been saving up. That feels earned; I wouldn't want that to be balanced away. Those are the ups and downs I like. It's also not exclusive what happens with casters in PoE. For my current PotD run my unplanned party ended up being: Melee Cipher Eder Devil of Caroc Sagani Zahua Aloth So basically 5 single-target attackers, 1 caster, and no support at all. Just because of the sheer amount of enemies in the packs in PotD, the roles have become inverted where during regular trash packs, Aloth is casting AoE like crazy and does the majority of the work, and everyone else just kinda stands in a circle and watches. For the big boss fights, Aloth is on secondary duty while everyone else unloads on the boss. Not saying casters don't have their problems (the level 9/per encounter spell change is when they take off into the stratosphere), but the mix of Vancian and non-Vancian systems adds a lot of wrinkles unique to the game that would be lost if you were to try to normalize every class.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:36
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In the relatively near future, the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell. A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses. Wizards do not need to have this spell in their currently equipped grimoire to take advantage of it.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:40
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I think that's a good option IMO. I'm not usually a fan of nerfing to achieve balance, but the way the system is implemented would bring complications in higher levels.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:48
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BTW, until I lower the duration, Minor Grimoire Imprint in 2.02 should be much more powerful, bordering on incredibly powerful, because it can take spells from wizards, druids, and priests.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:57
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rope kid posted:BTW, until I lower the duration, Minor Grimoire Imprint in 2.02 should be much more powerful, bordering on incredibly powerful, because it can take spells from wizards, druids, and priests. What's the duration right now? Seems kinda buggy, I've been using it sporadically and now Aloth has a permanent 5th spell (Necrotic Lance) on his spellbar, and his spellbook has like 3 versions of Ghost Blades in it.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:12
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Base 60s.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:12
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When is part 2 scheduled to come out btw?
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Sep 29, 2015 02:27
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Khizan posted:The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage. But is that a problem of balance, you went "5 fights without casting a single spell." You could make the same argument with any consumable resource in any game. I painstakingly didn't use any of my rocket ammo for the entire map and then when I got to the boss I finally used my second weapon slot and smoked him. The option to do stuff like that is usually a feature, not a bug.
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Sep 29, 2015 02:37
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StashAugustine posted:When is part 2 scheduled to come out btw?
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Sep 29, 2015 02:39
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StashAugustine posted:When is part 2 scheduled to come out btw?
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Sep 29, 2015 03:21
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I've yet to have a fight with kith, beasts, or anyone else vulnerable to paralyze that the fireball didn't make the entire fight a joke. Before the ogres and others were pretty difficult now it's just easy. It's crazy powerful. I just restarted from a previous save because it's possible to just not have to fight anything. Take more stealth items on Aloth, Sneak, Cast Spell, Follow with Prone spell. Murder everyone.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:27
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