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red19fire
May 26, 2010

Angepain posted:

This was a cool movie. I agree with what some other people said about the simplification of the problems/ reduction in number of issues kinda removes some of the tension and sense of high stakes, but I can't really see a way around that without making it four hours long, so. The other story, of Guy Stranded In Space, That's No Fun, Everyone Tries To Help Him was enough to still make watching the film a good time. Though, did anyone find the one scene where the two Chinese scientists decide to help them kinda weird? It was like the actors had only been given the script a minute before and hadn't decided how they were going to read it yet.

Serious issue, however: Given that in the film he's not cut off from NASA during the later part of the mission, there's no way he'd actually be a Space Pirate. The only reason NASA hadn't given him explicit permission in the book was because they weren't able to contact him and so he had to blindly just trek over to Ares 4 as it was the only plan they both knew of. Movie ruined.

Also I wanted more swearing. I like the idea that there's someone specifically employed in the mission control room to replace all the cuss words with asterisks before it goes up on the big fancy screen. (Actually, come to think of it, it would totally make sense for them to automate that after the first conversation. Dude cannot be trusted to watch his drat potty mouth.)

I just got back from the theater, I really love that film technology has given space the respect it deserves, if that makes any sense. Like it's really great to bring that sense of wonder to the theater. Also I heard church organs early on in the film and immediately thought of Interstellar.

I'm also amazed he wasn't flipping out constantly at every setback, but I think that ties in with the 'keep on truckin' approach to problem solving in the final scene. I'd imagine it's a big part of astronaut training, if you give up when faced with a problem, you'll definitely die, but if you keep trying you only might die.

But yeah, the movie that details every single problem faced would be 5 hours, and I would watch every minute of it. Space is loving awesome.

Nail Rat posted:

Vague "plans" but no, nothing realistic or concrete. At present it would take an Apollo-like budget for a decade or so, meaning we'd need to give NASA 8 times its current budget for awhile. Good luck getting that passed in Congress.

Even if they did increase the budget eightfold, it would still be a drop in the bucket compared to military spending. It's infuriating.

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MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




red19fire posted:

Even if they did increase the budget eightfold, it would still be a drop in the bucket compared to military spending. It's infuriating.

Hell, the military space program is four times that of NASA's full budget.

And that's not counting the intelligence agency programs. NASA's gonna be sending up another space telescope eventually because of spysats that the NRO just happened to have lying around in a bucket somewhere and went 'ah well they're so old they're no use to us', pulled the instruments out, and gave to NASA on a whim instead of trashing. And for NASA that was a holy poo poo jaw-dropping thing they wouldn't be able to afford otherwise.

They actually got two and a bunch of spare parts, but: "The two telescopes are identical, and we received them as a package deal from the NRO," Hertz said. "We don't, at this point in time, ever anticipate being rich enough to use both of them, but it sure would be fun to think about, wouldn't it?"

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Oct 12, 2015

Woden
May 6, 2006

MikeJF posted:

Hell, the military space program is four times that of NASA's full budget. And that's not counting the intelligence agency programs. NASA's gonna be sending up two more space telescopes eventually made out of spysats that the NRO just happened to have lying around in a bucket somewhere and never got around to using and went 'ah well they're so old they're no use to us', pulled the instruments out, and gave to NASA on a whim instead of trashing. And for NASA that was a holy poo poo jaw-dropping thing they wouldn't be able to afford otherwise.

Those sats are pretty much the same poo poo as Hubble, I mean it'd be cool to have a few more Hubbles up there so more scientists can get access to that sort of tool but they're not really some new uber thing. They also weren't lying around in a bucket and were costing a lot of money to store, makes more sense that they off loaded them to NASA so they'd fit the bill for storing some legacy equipment than admit they'd totally hosed up on procurement I guess.

Panfilo
Aug 27, 2011

EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬
How much of a pain would it be to try to replicate the mission in Kerbal Space Program? The issue is the Hermes, how would you be able to accelerate it for so long with only 4x time acceleration?

I did smile when I saw I think it was a Delta IV launch near the end and it looked very similar to a launch vehicle id build in KSP.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Woden posted:

Those sats are pretty much the same poo poo as Hubble, I mean it'd be cool to have a few more Hubbles up there so more scientists can get access to that sort of tool but they're not really some new uber thing. They also weren't lying around in a bucket and were costing a lot of money to store, makes more sense that they off loaded them to NASA so they'd fit the bill for storing some legacy equipment than admit they'd totally hosed up on procurement I guess.

Oh, I know they're not some uber new thing, but even an established technology one is something that NASA would wouldn't probably been able to afford otherwise for another decade - and even with this will only be able to afford fitting instruments into and launching one - whilst on the other hand the NRO can happily gently caress up and fully develop and outfit two or three they just aren't gonna use.

Also, it won't be identical to hubble in terms of scientific use, they're fitting it for a use we aren't currently telescoping (wide field infrared)

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 12, 2015

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

Panfilo posted:

How much of a pain would it be to try to replicate the mission in Kerbal Space Program? The issue is the Hermes, how would you be able to accelerate it for so long with only 4x time acceleration?

I did smile when I saw I think it was a Delta IV launch near the end and it looked very similar to a launch vehicle id build in KSP.

Somebody with way to much time on their hands did just that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdZulZpCa2s

Quite a bit pain of a pain in the rear end, I'd say.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

I don't know if anyone here plays Kerbal Space Program, but there is a fan-made campaign with all the craft and orbits featured in the Martian. See if you can pull of the Purnell Manouver!

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/130493-The-Dunatian-Crafts-and-Playable-Save-File-%28Now-with-Beta-Save-File%29-Help-Out-here

Chocobo
Oct 15, 2012


Here comes a new challenger!
Oven Wrangler
lovely disco music.

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!

Steve Yun posted:

Just got back from seeing this. Overall the great film, a great premise, and a breathtaking climax. There were some pacing issues, like how every single problem was introduced and then solved before going onto the next problem in a somewhat repetitive fashion, or Donald Glover's character only being introduced when he was important to the story and then disappearing right after.

I'm not sure why Dong Lover's character was even necessary. Using gravity wells to slingshot acceleration has been in NASA's repertoire since at least the 70s.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

I'm not sure why Dong Lover's character was even necessary. Using gravity wells to slingshot acceleration has been in NASA's repertoire since at least the 70s.

Computers can calculate orbits, even complex gravity assists, really easily these days. But they can't come up with an idea to do something no one had thought of -- in this case, resupply the Hermes en route and send it back to a Mars flyby ASAP instead of bringing it home to fit it out for a full rescue mission, as had been the plan before. It's the sort of thing that only an orbital dynamics engineer would have even thought of. And that's why the character is there. You need to think of an idea before you can calculate its orbital parameters, after all.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




I think his point was more that that'd be basically the first thing NASA thought of. They're all about slingshots.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009


Yeah my 12-year-old self could have come up with that plan.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

MikeJF posted:

I think his point was more that that'd be basically the first thing NASA thought of. They're all about slingshots.

So because they're aware of the concept of a gravity assist, they'd automatically and immediately think of an entire mission plan that's totally the opposite of the obvious one?

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Powered Descent posted:

So because they're aware of the concept of a gravity assist, they'd automatically and immediately think of an entire mission plan that's totally the opposite of the obvious one?

The first thing they would do is hold a meeting to discuss all their options. Getting Hermes back to Mars ASAP would be #1 on their list. While it's certainly possible that the idea of using a gravity assist would be overlooked, it seems rather unlikely.

Much more likely would be an argument over which method to use. The gravity assist method would probably have been rejected due to having only one shot and if anything went wrong they'd risk losing everyone. On the other hand, they might risk it since they'd have plenty of time to get several resupply vessels in orbit so that they'd have multiple chances to rendezvous with the Hermes.

It wouldn't have happened like in the movie in any event.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

I think people are complaining about the whole 'explaining gravity slingshots for the audience' scene?

Which could probably have been done via some other way.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat
Yeah, that was another thing that bugged me. Slingshots would've been the second or third thing NASA thought of. The fact that the movie made it look like it was a brilliant idea only this one special nerd could've come up with made me roll my eyes

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Deteriorata posted:

The first thing they would do is hold a meeting to discuss all their options. Getting Hermes back to Mars ASAP would be #1 on their list. While it's certainly possible that the idea of using a gravity assist would be overlooked, it seems rather unlikely.

There was more to the idea than "use a gravity assist". The Hermes was on its way home, with only enough supplies to last for the rest of the cruise back to Earth. It would be due for refurbishment and refueling so that it could be used at the next launch window for Ares 4, which was the obvious thing to build a rescue mission around. So getting it home was the plan, not sending it back to Mars ASAP.

A thing about gravity assists is they aren't available all the time. It's very common to need to wait years for the planets to line up just right for an assist that gets your probe where you need it to go. To find one that would work exactly when and where it was needed, and then realize that there was a way to build an entire mission mode around it that was just barely within the capabilities of no less than three spacecraft (Hermes, Taiyang Shen, MAV), was the clever bit.

Was the explanation of the gravity assist plan hammed up for the movie audience? Absolutely. But it's not at all unrealistic that nobody would have thought of the idea for a while.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat
Pretty much everyone at JPL and NASA would have been old enough to have seen 2010, which means the word slingshot would've come out of somebody's mouth in a meeting.

Psawhn
Jan 15, 2011
I agree that, in real life, as soon as they found out Watney was alive there'd be somebody running the numbers of how soon they could get Hermes back to Mars, and the Rich Purnell maneuver would be on the table from the get-go. I didn't mind it for the movie, though, of which one reason is that constant-thrust ion drives are non-intuitive enough, and orbits are finicky enough, that the answer to the question "Can we do a gravity assist?" is often either "No" or "Not for a few years."

Here's an article about genuine mission planners talking about The Martian's courses:
https://www.insidescience.org/content/inside-spaceflight-martian/3251
Turns out the post-Earth-slingshot trajectory puts the Hermes within Venus' orbit, which is pretty scary from a solar radiation perspective.

vessbot
Jun 17, 2005
I don't like you because you're dangerous
I agree that Purnell is unnecessary and out of place because everyone would have known about the slingshot possibility from the word go. After all, there are only 2 main options, both immediately obvious: Hermes, or the Chinese ship. Everything else is a consequence or further detail of those, to be explored. (Whether there is or isn't enough delta v, how much it would prolong the mission, risk factors, etc.)

I could see why they needed the Purnell character as a device to explain it to the audience, but the way he introduced it to the chief of NASA was painfully cringeworthy. They could have handled it, for example, like the real-life story of John Houbolt and LOR, where everyone knew about the maneuver but he championed it. And it was complete with the drama of him risking his reputation by going around everybody and making his pivotal bid straight to the top.

vessbot
Jun 17, 2005
I don't like you because you're dangerous

old dog child posted:

The MAV had to land on Mars, vessbot.

I'm not taking about the base of the entire stack, but the base of the capsule (the cone-shaped last stage that was left over when all engines stopped firing). That was not exposed for the Mars landing.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat
Hey, but nitpicks aside, I just want to reiterate that this was a great movie.

My favorite thing about it was the unexpected lengths to which people would go. Blowing up half their spaceship was a breathtaking moment. Playing with poop, removing almost everything from a launch vehicle including the control panel, windows, and nose cone, etc, there were a lot of holy poo poo moments

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009


Singshot is basically how we send out all deep space probes and has been for decades.

Drunk in Space
Dec 1, 2009
Saw this today: thought it was an excellent film. There was an article I read a few days ago that argued this was the first 'real' Mars film, in the sense of giving us a genuine hard science fiction story instead of schlocky action like in Red Planet (a film I enjoyed, to be fair), or whatever the hell Mission to Mars was supposed to be. As a lifelong space nerd and Mars buff in particular, it's nice to finally see a movie like this made, something that does Mars justice. The sweeping shots of the Martian landscape when Watney was in his rover were spectacular and I wish there had been more of that.

I would echo the sentiment of some that the whole thing seemed a bit too straightforward. There wasn't that much tension, I never really felt like Damon's character was challenged that much or in any kind of serious danger (at least beyond the initial accident - which was very dramatic), or even that he was all that isolated, and there weren't as many curve-balls thrown his way as I was expecting. He said he would science the poo poo out of his problems, and . . . that's pretty much what he did.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Drunk in Space posted:

He said he would science the poo poo out of his problems, and . . . that's pretty much what he did.

Accurate to the book then.

Shit Fuckasaurus
Oct 14, 2005

i think right angles might be an abomination against nature you guys
Lipstick Apathy
The reason the Rich Purnell maneuver was unique wasn't because of the "slingshot" concept, it's because it proposed a circumsolar maneuver (it sent The Hermes around the sun before intercepting Mars). The Hermes is designed for relatively low-speed trans-planetary travel during optimal or nearly-optimal transfer windows, meaning it's never travelling for very long without a planet and it never has to go more than a quarter of the way around the sun without being in planetary orbit. It makes sense that the Rich Purnell maneuver wouldn't be considered since the first slingshot maneuver anyone would consider would be direct from Earth to Mars, which would put The Hermes into a reverse solar orbit (which isn't done for a variety of reasons) and The Hermes would have much too much speed for a decent intercept (since it would pass Mars going the opposite direction), and then it would be travelling very fast in a very out-of-the-solar-system trajectory, and getting it back to Earth would take longer than the Astronauts could possibly live given their supplies.

Rich Purnell suggests sending The Hermes into a sub-Venusian eccentric solar orbit, meaning it would go around Earth, then around the Sun, and then fly past Mars. From the perspective of what the ship was designed for this is insane, but from the perspective of what it's capable of it's apparently not.

All of this makes perfect sense, but for some reason neither the book nor the movie nor the original serial version describes the maneuver correctly. Andy himself does, in interviews and on Reddit, and his simulations all represent it accurately, but he never conveyed it in any of the original media.

duz
Jul 11, 2005

Come on Ilhan, lets go bag us a shitpost


Plastik posted:

The reason the Rich Purnell maneuver was unique wasn't because of the "slingshot" concept, it's because it proposed a circumsolar maneuver (it sent The Hermes around the sun before intercepting Mars). The Hermes is designed for relatively low-speed trans-planetary travel during optimal or nearly-optimal transfer windows, meaning it's never travelling for very long without a planet and it never has to go more than a quarter of the way around the sun without being in planetary orbit. It makes sense that the Rich Purnell maneuver wouldn't be considered since the first slingshot maneuver anyone would consider would be direct from Earth to Mars, which would put The Hermes into a reverse solar orbit (which isn't done for a variety of reasons) and The Hermes would have much too much speed for a decent intercept (since it would pass Mars going the opposite direction), and then it would be travelling very fast in a very out-of-the-solar-system trajectory, and getting it back to Earth would take longer than the Astronauts could possibly live given their supplies.

Rich Purnell suggests sending The Hermes into a sub-Venusian eccentric solar orbit, meaning it would go around Earth, then around the Sun, and then fly past Mars. From the perspective of what the ship was designed for this is insane, but from the perspective of what it's capable of it's apparently not.

All of this makes perfect sense, but for some reason neither the book nor the movie nor the original serial version describes the maneuver correctly. Andy himself does, in interviews and on Reddit, and his simulations all represent it accurately, but he never conveyed it in any of the original media.

Oh, Hermes pulled a Star Trek 4. That explains it better.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

Yeah I think in the movie it looked like a direct earth->mars slingshot, this of course. This way it of course makes a bit more sense, and I can see them not wanting to overcomplicate everything with detailed explanations of orbital mechanics.

Drunk in Space
Dec 1, 2009

computer parts posted:

Accurate to the book then.

I haven't read the book, although I did read somewhere that during his last rover trip in the book he has a problem with it (it gets tipped over or something?), which is exactly what I was expecting would happen while watching the film.

duz posted:

Oh, Hermes pulled a Star Trek 4. That explains it better.

You can't just namedrop Star Trek 4 without linking to the trippy-as-gently caress scene itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65nSJrF-zgw

Drunk in Space fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Oct 13, 2015

Senjuro
Aug 19, 2006

Drunk in Space posted:

I haven't read the book, although I did read somewhere that during his last rover trip in the book he has a problem with it (it gets tipped over or something?), which is exactly what I was expecting would happen while watching the film.

A tip over, a dust storm and a bunch of other problems that the movie cut or vastly simplified. For as much as everyone liked the "science the poo poo out of it" line, Watney didn't really have that much sciencing to do. He has to use his noggin a lot more in the book.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008

Drunk in Space posted:

Saw this today: thought it was an excellent film. There was an article I read a few days ago that argued this was the first 'real' Mars film, in the sense of giving us a genuine hard science fiction story instead of schlocky action like in Red Planet (a film I enjoyed, to be fair), or whatever the hell Mission to Mars was supposed to be.

I remember when Mission to Mars came out there was a lot of hype over how "realistic" the screenwriters and set designers tried to make it. Instead, we got the whole idiotic EVA to the capsule scene right at the start. Even ignoring all the alien scenes.

In terms of recent realistic space movies, this actually reminded me a lot of Europa Report.

The Midniter
Jul 9, 2001

nessin posted:

Has anyone watched it twice, once in 3d? I originally went to watch the movie in 3d but the theater screwed up and played the standard version. It has been bugging me for the past week that I really want to see it in 3d but not sure if the 3d is worth another 10 bucks and 2 hours of time even though I enjoyed the movie and will probably pick it up at home.

I've only seen the movie once, but I saw it in 3D. It really doesn't add anything and to be honest I wish I'd seen it in 2D. I can't even remember any of the 3D effects aside from some of the mountains/valleys on the Martian surface when Watney's traveling.

Luneshot
Mar 10, 2014

Plastik posted:

The reason the Rich Purnell maneuver was unique wasn't because of the "slingshot" concept, it's because it proposed a circumsolar maneuver (it sent The Hermes around the sun before intercepting Mars). The Hermes is designed for relatively low-speed trans-planetary travel during optimal or nearly-optimal transfer windows, meaning it's never travelling for very long without a planet and it never has to go more than a quarter of the way around the sun without being in planetary orbit. It makes sense that the Rich Purnell maneuver wouldn't be considered since the first slingshot maneuver anyone would consider would be direct from Earth to Mars, which would put The Hermes into a reverse solar orbit (which isn't done for a variety of reasons) and The Hermes would have much too much speed for a decent intercept (since it would pass Mars going the opposite direction), and then it would be travelling very fast in a very out-of-the-solar-system trajectory, and getting it back to Earth would take longer than the Astronauts could possibly live given their supplies.

Rich Purnell suggests sending The Hermes into a sub-Venusian eccentric solar orbit, meaning it would go around Earth, then around the Sun, and then fly past Mars. From the perspective of what the ship was designed for this is insane, but from the perspective of what it's capable of it's apparently not.

All of this makes perfect sense, but for some reason neither the book nor the movie nor the original serial version describes the maneuver correctly. Andy himself does, in interviews and on Reddit, and his simulations all represent it accurately, but he never conveyed it in any of the original media.

Man, some diagrams would be really, REALLY helpful for this. I get the concept pretty handily but I'm having trouble visualizing it. Did Andy ever post his simulations anywhere?

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Luneshot posted:

Man, some diagrams would be really, REALLY helpful for this. I get the concept pretty handily but I'm having trouble visualizing it. Did Andy ever post his simulations anywhere?

https://www.insidescience.org/content/inside-spaceflight-martian/3251

Has a full orbital diagram. Click for PDF version

Luneshot
Mar 10, 2014

Oh wow, that's a really awesome diagram and article. Thanks for that!

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat

Plastik posted:

The reason the Rich Purnell maneuver was unique wasn't because of the "slingshot" concept, it's because it proposed a circumsolar maneuver

That's not unique at all, and would have come up in a meeting just the same.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001

Fun Shoe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfuLtjgzA8

~13:55 he explains what how he calculated it and runs the actual simulation he created showing the ship's trip.

Shit Fuckasaurus
Oct 14, 2005

i think right angles might be an abomination against nature you guys
Lipstick Apathy

Steve Yun posted:

That's not unique at all, and would have come up in a meeting just the same.

I mean, I understand where you're coming from, because this is the normal way we get space things anywhere, but I feel a combination of functional fixedness and knowing full well that the Hermes is not designed for significant solar orbits could suppress the idea. I'm not saying it's rock-solid proof that it's not a hole he fixed later, I'm just saying it's more than enough for anyone willing to put in a small effort to suspend their disbelief. It's entirely possible that the people who realized it was possible thought better of it before they even opened their mouths.

Also the Ares IV crew were "really pushing for" the opportunity to rescue Watney within a week of the discovery that he was less dead than anticipated. The problem at that point isn't "How do we get him?" but "How do we get him to the Ares IV site and keep him alive until we can get them there?". Why solve a problem you don't have anymore?

GORDON
Jan 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy
What I wondered was... after they blew out the air from 80% of the ship to slow down enough to be able to catch Watney, does that mean they had an 8 month trip back to Earth with no gym and the other stuff in the rotating section, or did they have enough canned air to basically refill the entire ship after they patched the door?

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CommanderApaul
Aug 30, 2003

It's amazing their hands can support such awesome.

GORDON posted:

What I wondered was... after they blew out the air from 80% of the ship to slow down enough to be able to catch Watney, does that mean they had an 8 month trip back to Earth with no gym and the other stuff in the rotating section, or did they have enough canned air to basically refill the entire ship after they patched the door?

From what I remember of the book, they had enough canned air on board to repressurize the ship from a total atmosphere loss at least once, if not twice. Once they repress, they scrubbers/oxygenator takes care of the rest.

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