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Ghetto Prince posted:I was commenting on the random superhero/comic book chat of the past few pages. Uh the only reason Matt could build a case against Fisk is because he put on a black mask and extracted the star witness of that federal case against Fisk, otherwise that star witness would have been killed by the corrupt cops that Fisk bought off. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here
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Oct 13, 2015 04:12
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Jonny_Rocket posted:http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/12/9508817/daredevil-first-trailer-second-season-netflix-marvel If someone can get a cap of Daredevil in costume, it looks like they changed his mask so his nose is uncovered.
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Oct 13, 2015 04:58
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HIJK posted:Uh the only reason Matt could build a case against Fisk is because he put on a black mask and extracted the star witness of that federal case against Fisk, otherwise that star witness would have been killed by the corrupt cops that Fisk bought off. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here There were a lot of moving parts in this show and they all tied together pretty well.
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Oct 13, 2015 06:42
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They spent some much time building things up that they forgot to have a satisfying conclusion that actually ties together the show's themes.
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Oct 13, 2015 06:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:They spent some much time building things up that they forgot to have a satisfying conclusion that actually ties together the show's themes. It's almost as if it's just a season of a TV series and not a standalone thing, and they planned on continuing it in a second season or something. Too bad that's not happening and what we have is all that exists, though.
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Oct 13, 2015 07:09
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TheJoker138 posted:It's almost as if it's just a season of a TV series and not a standalone thing, and they planned on continuing it in a second season or something. Too bad that's not happening and what we have is all that exists, though. I am talking about the season's storyline, genius.
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Oct 13, 2015 07:12
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I am talking about the season's storyline, genius. Yeah, I hated how in Breaking Bad they didn't wrap up that whole meth thing, or the cancer thing, at the end of the first season. I'm sure they'll never go back to any of the themes, characters, or events of season 1 ever again with Daredevil either, just like that show completely abandoned all that at the end of it's first season. It's all just going to be forgotten moving on.
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Oct 13, 2015 07:14
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I just hope Fisk is coming back. We have Punisher going nuts and shooting up criminals because he was partially inspired by Daredevil, but what the hell is Electra doing back in town?
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Oct 13, 2015 07:18
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TheJoker138 posted:Yeah, I hated how in Breaking Bad they didn't wrap up that whole meth thing, or the cancer thing, at the end of the first season. I'm sure they'll never go back to any of the themes, characters, or events of season 1 ever again with Daredevil either, just like that show completely abandoned all that at the end of it's first season. It's all just going to be forgotten moving on. Basically what you are arguing is that an initial season of a show shouldn't function on its own as a storyline or story arc. What makes this even more absurd is that Breaking Bad S1 was cut short, which is why episode 7 is such an odd finale. But Breaking Bad S1 had a climactic episode (6), unlike Daredevil S1. Obviously the story isn't finished, but the first season is still satisfying as a story. Having story arcs with proper beginnings, middles, and ends is a basic part of storytelling, and it's just as important in a serialized format. Daredevil's season 1 ended very badly because they built up a climactic battle of wills, and then didn't include it. it's more like if Luke and co destroyed the Death Star while escaping it in Star Wars, or if the Brothers Karamazov covered the murder and the trial in just one of its 12 "books". While bringing down Kingpin's lieutenants one-by-one was good, Kingpin didn't have a proper "downfall", even if you view the whole season as it. The star witness who brings down Kingpin is only brought back in the same episode where his criminal empire is dismantled. It's a matter of scenes between him being mentioned again and Fisk's arrest. Daredevil S1 spent more time on talking about how outclassed the heroes were than actually showing them outclassed. Episode 13 simply isn't a satisfying enough of a finale. They didn't actually have the struggle of monumental wills that defines the characters' relationship in the comic. Daredevil calls the cops on Fisk, and then beats him up, in one episode. That's it, see you in season 2! Now obviously it's all going to come back, but the season simply doesn't have a proper climax. Now this is all just so many words for a pretty simple problem: everything in episode 13 should've been expanded to cover two episodes. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 07:47
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The final fight also seemed like it came from a lower quality show - even the music sounded significantly different and far more intrusive. Compare it to the episode 2 fight or the Nobu one, or even his first confrontation with Fisk in that same episode. Combined with the first appearance of the super suit the end result felt rushed and dramatically two dimensional for both characters.
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Oct 13, 2015 08:53
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The end is like a plan B was dusted off, at the last minute,
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Oct 13, 2015 10:22
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The final fight was blah but it was worth it just for I AM THE ILL INTENT.
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Oct 13, 2015 10:56
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Nah, that was kinda hammy.
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Oct 13, 2015 11:41
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The final fight was awful, no question, I still hide my eyes when watching because ugh. On the other hand there was more going on than just "heroes are outclassed." It was an ideological conflic between Matt and the Kingpin. That speech about "intent" is very important because intent dictated their actions and their mindset. Matt and Fisk both use violence in pursuit of "making Hell's Kitchen a better place" but Fisk is the ill intent that only ruins Hell's Kitchen by jacking up organized crime. Matt is the good Samaritan who gives up all he has to save it, simply because he loves his neighbors. All of this is spelled out in the final episode but the entire series built up to it by making Fisk sympathetic even if his methods are insane and Matt into a shady dude with out of control rage problems even if his actions are understandable. Like, characters throughout the show discuss and question whether or not The Devil of Hell's Kitchen is actually any better than Wilson Fisk. As awkward and dumb and badly choreographed as the last fight scene is, it does answer once and for all that the two characters are very different from one another and that their intent matters. Matt wants to help his city whereas Fisk wants to transform it into something that reflects his personal definition of "good" i.e. shoving out the poor residents with gentrification and replacing them with upscale establishments and citizens with deep pocket books. Matt actually tries to attack the problem at its source. The show does touch on how hard it is to be a vigilante when you don't have Tony Stark on speed dial and when you have no special powers or a support system. But that was never the thrust of the show.
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Oct 13, 2015 13:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsD3sVcn2g
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Oct 13, 2015 14:37
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Like you say, the story is essentially about class conflict. S1 constantly underlines the corruption of New York, establishing a class conflict between exploiters and the exploited - but then it completely drops it. FIsk is defeated by making him an outcast, even though it's his class that's corrupt, and not just him. They made the story too radical for the MCU, so they probably never could end it satisfyingly.
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Oct 13, 2015 14:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Like you say, the story is essentially about class conflict. S1 constantly underlines the corruption of New York, establishing a class conflict between exploiters and the exploited - but then it completely drops it. FIsk is defeated by making him an outcast, even though it's his class that's corrupt, and not just him. I thought they resolved it very well, just in a subtle way. Matt is a poor lawyer with no disposable income from a blue collar background that must bargain for his advantages, like the suit. As a moral man he hasn't killed and cheated to get money and influence. He spits in Fisk's face and exposes the lie that you can throw money at problems. It's not an accident that he wears the dorky suit to kick Fisk's rear end. Again, their intent is what defines them: Fisk blackmailed and threatened Melvin Potter into making his armored suit whereas Matt simply extended his aegis to Melvin's friend Betsy. Fisk is a rich white rear end in a top hat whereas Matt is the poor handicapped dude who lives in a poo poo apartment. Matt and Fisk's conflict was always class conflict. That being said I think it also exists as characterization and set dressing. (Like how they really spent very little time on Elena's problems and didn't develop her setting of the down on its luck apartment complex, they only said "aw poo poo druggie stabbed her, dog.") If the story was about corporate espionage and Matt was protecting the white collar workers that Fisk wanted to scapegoat, it would still be the same thing, i.e. Matt trying to protect the weak against the predations of the powerful. From my POV the conflict is actually "who cares about New York City the hardest." Fisk only cares about getting a result whereas Matt is trying to get to the problems underlying the symptoms. I think we're saying similar things, I just think that the class thing is omnipresent throughout the show and that they resolved it metaphorically instead pushing it in the narrative.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:07
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The series establishes that society is wholly corrupt, and even people like Fisk are bound by its structures (compare his powerlessness in face of Vanessa's poisoning to Urich and his ill wife). Murdock and co win by calling the FBI on Fisk, but it's established that the FBI is also subverted by Fisk's operatives. Daredevil seems to be actually a defender of a corrupt status quo, as opposed to the socially radical Devil of Hell's Kitchen.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The series establishes that society is wholly corrupt, and even people like Fisk are bound by its structures (compare his powerlessness in face of Vanessa's poisoning to Urich and his ill wife). Murdock and co win by calling the FBI on Fisk, but it's established that the FBI is also subverted by Fisk's operatives. Daredevil seems to be actually a defender of a corrupt status quo, as opposed to the socially radical Devil of Hell's Kitchen. I guess it depends on what "wholly corrupt" means. Urich isn't corrupt and his boss isn't corrupt either -- it's one mole at the Bulletin that causes all the trouble. Elena isn't corrupt though she's killed by corrupt forces. When the cop in the final episode comes clean and confesses to everything then he's essentially doing penance for his sins. If Daredevil was upholding a status quo then I would think that would mean Fisk would walk instead of going to jail. Like, Fisk's culture of crime was the status quo before he got there, he just edged out the Russians and Italians so he could use their infrastructure of Evil Rich People instead. By putting him in jail (notably by handing him over to Brett Mahoney, the only cop Matt is certain of being Good) Daredevil cuts him off from his resources and deals a heavy blow to organized crime by putting away its largest, strongest pillar. I think the rest of it, like the illness of Doris Urich, is just a symptom of their crapsack world. There's a lot of Catholic/Christian themes in the show and one of them is "fighting the long defeat," to quote another Catholic source. The point being that Matt and other good people cannot redeem their world or cure it of evil, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't fight back. I don't see Daredevil the hero upholding the status quo, it seemed more like he went after the biggest fish with a vengeance and now can return to more sedate crime fighting now that Fisk is put away.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:39
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I think that's part of the problem myself, the show's Christian dimension also promotes a kind of status quo. Like the priest telling Matt how killing Fisk would poison his life.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:46
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HIJK posted:I think the rest of it, like the illness of Doris Urich, is just a symptom of their crapsack world. There's a lot of Catholic/Christian themes in the show and one of them is "fighting the long defeat," to quote another Catholic source. The point being that Matt and other good people cannot redeem their world or cure it of evil, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't fight back. Not to take away from Daredevil, but Angel did this exact same theme so much better.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:49
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Okay, that works.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:50
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I think that's part of the problem myself, the show's Christian dimension also promotes a kind of status quo. Like the priest telling Matt how killing Fisk would poison his life. Hahaha. Yeah but that also kind of comes with the territory. Batman should have killed the Joker and Daredevil really should put Fisk down but then there wouldn't be a show and there wouldn't be an easy moral line for Marvel to use. At the end of the day we're supposed to buy into Matt's worldview just a bit. mind the walrus posted:Not to take away from Daredevil, but Angel did this exact same theme so much better. I never saw Angel and Joss Whedon bores me at this point so I'll take your word for it
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Oct 13, 2015 15:50
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HIJK posted:Hahaha. Yeah but that also kind of comes with the territory. Batman should have killed the Joker and Daredevil really should put Fisk down but then there wouldn't be a show and there wouldn't be an easy moral line for Marvel to use. Except there is always another bad guy and another and another and before you know it.... Luckily though these themes will get put into contrast in the next season.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:56
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HIJK posted:I never saw Angel and Joss Whedon bores me at this point so I'll take your word for it I'll be the first to cop to Whedon's inadequacies and the annoying cult of fans around him, but Angel was legitimately good and very clearly one of the progenitors of Daredevil as a TV show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gXaMnkmGq0 Bonus synergy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kApY41_o60
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Oct 13, 2015 16:05
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Zythrst posted:Except there is always another bad guy and another and another and before you know it.... Luckily though these themes will get put into contrast in the next season. Yeah but that's part of Matt's thing, isn't it? That Daredevil is a self destructive outlet just as much as a net good for Hell's Kitchen, and that he's a loner and blahblahblah. I fully expect Frank to gently caress him up good come season 2.  mind the walrus posted:I'll be the first to cop to Whedon's inadequacies and the annoying cult of fans around him, but Angel was legitimately good and very clearly one of the progenitors of Daredevil as a TV show. I'll check these out when I have time, thanks!
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Oct 13, 2015 16:07
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As a big fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Forever Knight, I thought that Angel was garbage. I made it through 3 seasons and then quit because it just wasn't good. It's a show made out of the b-cast of Buffy and without any off the thematic material that made Buffy so good. edit: big, not bi Snak fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 16:17
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Haha you just ruined your credibility. Sorry. Angel was the best.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:26
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Drifter posted:Haha you just ruined your credibility. Sorry. Angel was the best. I mean, this is what I kept hearing, why do you think I kept at it for 3 whole seasons? I do not get what people like about it.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:39
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Snak posted:As a bi fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Forever Knight, I thought that Angel was garbage. I made it through 3 seasons and then quit because it just wasn't good. It's a show made out of the b-cast of Buffy and without any off the thematic material that made Buffy so good. You quit before the worst season, which is in-turn followed by the best season. Angel on the first watch didn't grab me as much as Buffy, but I kept with it and I was really glad I did. Season 5 is legitimately ace and one of the best things in both Buffy and Angel combined. Then on a re-watch--yes I think Angel is legitimately a show that merits re-watching--the episodes that I remember being very "meh" on the first time around are filled with much greater depth now that I know where the plot is going and can pay more attention to the character arcs over the "we have to find Darla/Holtz" plots. Even the justifiably reviled Season 4 holds up way better than you'd think. On top of that Angel is... it's just not Buffy. Buffy is a show that is fundamentally about growing up, while Angel is a show about being an adult (particularly an adult who has hosed up/been hosed over and is making the best of things). Buffy is all about Buffy's journey with the supporting cast in orbit around her, while Angel is very much an ensemble piece about each character's journey as adults. When you watch Angel on that level the thematic elements resonate much more strongly. Much much more strongly.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:39
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mind the walrus posted:On top of that Angel is... it's just not Buffy. Buffy is a show that is fundamentally about growing up, while Angel is a show about being an adult (particularly an adult who has hosed up/been hosed over and is making the best of things). Buffy is all about Buffy's journey with the supporting cast in orbit around her, while Angel is very much an ensemble piece about each character's journey as adults. When you watch Angel on that level the thematic elements resonate much more strongly. Much much more strongly. Yeah my issue was basically that the setting did not lend itself well to being about being an adult. Angel never behaved like an adult, and all the stuff that was supposed to be serious was cringeworthy. All of these things worked when they were a metaphor for growing up. It's like a story about being adults, targeted at adolescents. Which fell totally flat for me.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:49
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Angel is amazing but it definitely has its ups and downs. The Jasmine arc and Connor are some of the worst things in the Buffverse though, unfortunately. But it also has Fred, Illyria, and Wesley who are some of the best characters in the Buffyverse with some of the best arcs ever. It was definitely a show that was literally just finding its feet when it got cancelled cause Joss was an overzealous dick that poked the bear that was The WB.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:49
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Snak posted:As a big fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Forever Knight, I thought that Angel was garbage. I made it through 3 seasons and then quit because it just wasn't good. It's a show made out of the b-cast of Buffy and without any off the thematic material that made Buffy so good. It wasn't just the B-cast, it was every obnoxious and unlikeable character from Buffy. It was like making a spin-off from Lost starring those two "new survivors" who were so unpopular with fans that they were eventually buried alive, adding a couple of new characters then killing off the only one anyone actually liked.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:56
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Snak posted:Yeah my issue was basically that the setting did not lend itself well to being about being an adult. Angel never behaved like an adult, and all the stuff that was supposed to be serious was cringeworthy. All of these things worked when they were a metaphor for growing up. I respect your perspective, but I really didn't see it that way. If you're waiting for a 1:1 metaphor for being an adult where like the Stygian beasts represent the IRS or something you're going to be let down, but if you accept it as something broader, it really resonates. I didn't really sit and watch the show until I was an over-21 adult with his own place and car and everything and the show still spoke to me, both despite of and sometimes because of the very loose and unrealistic setting. Deakul posted:It was definitely a show that was literally just finding its feet when it got cancelled cause Joss was an overzealous dick that poked the bear that was The WB. This too. Season 5 feels like the show is basically starting anew from the foundation it spent the past four seasons building, but Whedon let his Firefly angst get in the way and tank the best thing he had going for him. I can sympathize with his feelings but in hindsight it's hard not to say "take a breath and wait before getting your show cancelled you loving idiot."
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Oct 13, 2015 17:00
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Angel is responsible for Bones being a thing, so Angel is one of television's greatest crimes.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:10
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Aphrodite posted:Angel being cancelled is responsible for Bones being a thing, so Angel being cancelled is one of television's greatest crimes. 
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Oct 13, 2015 17:21
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Aphrodite posted:Angel is responsible for Bones being a thing, so Angel is one of television's greatest crimes. Bones was a decent show for the first three or maybe five years. If Angel had managed so much, maybe it wouldn't have been cancelled.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:36
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Aphrodite posted:Angel is responsible for Bones being a thing, so Angel is one of television's greatest crimes. I heard Bones is doing a crossover with Sleepy Hollow and just laughed and laughed HIJK posted:Hahaha. Yeah but that also kind of comes with the territory. Batman should have killed the Joker and Daredevil really should put Fisk down but then there wouldn't be a show and there wouldn't be an easy moral line for Marvel to use. ... enter Frank Castle
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Oct 13, 2015 17:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I think that's part of the problem myself, the show's Christian dimension also promotes a kind of status quo. Like the priest telling Matt how killing Fisk would poison his life. They should introduce a foil who indiscriminately kills bad guys for Catholic Matt to tangle with. Hey, that sounds like season 2!
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Oct 13, 2015 17:42
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The Punisher is really a logical development of the Devil of Hell's Kitchen.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:49
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