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Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat

Plastik posted:

I mean, I understand where you're coming from, because this is the normal way we get space things anywhere, but I feel a combination of functional fixedness and knowing full well that the Hermes is not designed for significant solar orbits could suppress the idea. I'm not saying it's rock-solid proof that it's not a hole he fixed later, I'm just saying it's more than enough for anyone willing to put in a small effort to suspend their disbelief. It's entirely possible that the people who realized it was possible thought better of it before they even opened their mouths.

Also the Ares IV crew were "really pushing for" the opportunity to rescue Watney within a week of the discovery that he was less dead than anticipated. The problem at that point isn't "How do we get him?" but "How do we get him to the Ares IV site and keep him alive until we can get them there?". Why solve a problem you don't have anymore?

Because in a situation like that every idea gets blurted out and then evaluated, nobody mutters a possible life-saving plan to themselves and then decides "nah, I won't tell everyone else, it's dumb." They are always going to want contingencies, even if they don't go with a particular plan.

Especially in an organization where they have thousands of people smarter than either you or I. Several people would have brought it up and then they'd have arguments over its viability.

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GORDON
Jan 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

CommanderApaul posted:

From what I remember of the book, they had enough canned air on board to repressurize the ship from a total atmosphere loss at least once, if not twice. Once they repress, they scrubbers/oxygenator takes care of the rest.

Cool. I imagine if they'd had to make the trip back to Earth in zero g with no ability to exercise and in cramped quarters, they'd be in pretty bad shape when they got there.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




If they'd brought up the risks of the the circumsolar trip and close pass to the sun the guy who ruled against it would've seemed much more reasonable.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

So, as a backseat astronaut, is there a reason why he wasn't using airlocks 2 and 3 as additional farming space? If he wasn't using them anyway, and wanted to max out the hab space used for farming, it seems like a no-duh.

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Tunicate posted:

So, as a backseat astronaut, is there a reason why he wasn't using airlocks 2 and 3 as additional farming space? If he wasn't using them anyway, and wanted to max out the hab space used for farming, it seems like a no-duh.

Because of what happened to Airlock 1, basically. Messing with the pressure in a working airlock would be an incredibly bad idea.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

TinTower posted:

Because of what happened to Airlock 1, basically. Messing with the pressure in a working airlock would be an incredibly bad idea.

Also, the airlocks got a LOT bigger for the movie. In the book, they're phone booth sized.

Man Dancer
Apr 22, 2008
Have to say my favorite part was delight that Eddy Ko is still getting work.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

TinTower posted:

Because of what happened to Airlock 1, basically. Messing with the pressure in a working airlock would be an incredibly bad idea.

Well it'd still be at normal pressure, right? IT'd just have plants growing on the floor

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Tunicate posted:

Well it'd still be at normal pressure, right? IT'd just have plants growing on the floor

In the book, he uses pretty much every available space. As mentioned, the airlocks are tiny, but he covers every part of the hab floor, two out of three work tables, and all the bunks other than his own in soil. He also considers using the rovers, but decides he needs them. Instead, he does use their emergency pop tents as additional growing area, too.

Plus the airlock that blew apart on him did so because he kept using it over and over, neglecting the others. Repetitive stress from use and pressurization/depressurization cycles. He spent the rest of the mission using the other two in a balanced manner to prevent such an occurrence again.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

PerrineClostermann posted:

In the book, he uses pretty much every available space. As mentioned, the airlocks are tiny, but he covers every part of the hab floor, two out of three work tables, and all the bunks other than his own in soil. He also considers using the rovers, but decides he needs them. Instead, he does use their emergency pop tents as additional growing area, too.

Plus the airlock that blew apart on him did so because he kept using it over and over, neglecting the others. Repetitive stress from use and pressurization/depressurization cycles. He spent the rest of the mission using the other two in a balanced manner to prevent such an occurrence again.

That's exactly what I mean, though. If he isn't using those airlocks at all to go in and out, then why isn't he using them for plants, when he's using literally every piece of space he has available for farming? He doesn't need to fiddle with the pressurization on them, just put some potato plants in and treat them like any other room.

I mean the doylist reason is 'because then he'd have a backup source of live soil', but from a watsonian perspective it seems a bit weird.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Tunicate posted:

That's exactly what I mean, though. If he isn't using those airlocks at all to go in and out, then why isn't he using them for plants, when he's using literally every piece of space he has available for farming? He doesn't need to fiddle with the pressurization on them, just put some potato plants in and treat them like any other room.

I mean the doylist reason is 'because then he'd have a backup source of live soil', but from a watsonian perspective it seems a bit weird.


Because the source material's airlocks are tiny. In the movie he didn't even fill the whole hab.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Yeah they're tiny, but so are the bunk beds.

Decided to do a search inside on amazon - they're about a square meter each? He's scrounging for space to the point where he's growing plants both on and under on the tables and trying to get every one-square-meter area productive, so it isn't like it's a smaller area than the ones he already scrounged.

Shit Fuckasaurus
Oct 14, 2005

i think right angles might be an abomination against nature you guys
Lipstick Apathy

Tunicate posted:

I mean the doylist reason is 'because then he'd have a backup source of live soil', but from a watsonian perspective it seems a bit weird.


He wouldn't though. If the airlocks are pressurized they're pressurized to HAB pressure. If they're depressurized they're depressurized to Mars pressure. If HAB pressure drops to Mars pressure, airlock pressure drops to Mars pressure no matter what. Unless for some reason he kept the airlocks sealed at all times, and maybe even then, depending on how the system works.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Plastik posted:

He wouldn't though. If the airlocks are pressurized they're pressurized to HAB pressure. If they're depressurized they're depressurized to Mars pressure. If HAB pressure drops to Mars pressure, airlock pressure drops to Mars pressure no matter what. Unless for some reason he kept the airlocks sealed at all times, and maybe even then, depending on how the system works.

I'd assume the airlocks would be setup to seal up the moment they detected a change in pressure. I mean, that's kind of what an airlock does, right?

Assuming he didn't want to go to the trouble of opening and shutting the door every time he looked a potato, and left the hab->airlock door open.

EDIT: yeah, there's definitely an airlock state where it's open to neither mars nor hab pressure.

Tunicate fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Oct 16, 2015

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


Given the fact that his potatoes happily grew indoors, I'm going to assume they had some sort of internal lighting designed to mimic sunlight. Makes sense that since they have to heat the hab anyway they may as well try and do it in a way that is more like Earth natural light and psychologically pleasing for the astronauts. They wouldn't have bothered putting that nice lighting in the airlocks.

When it comes to the airlocks, I was surprised that when it cut to several months later he hadn't reinforced the blown out doorway. Seven months of it flapping around would have been enough to give anyone a nervous breakdown but it was still sitting there entirely unchanged.

Shit Fuckasaurus
Oct 14, 2005

i think right angles might be an abomination against nature you guys
Lipstick Apathy

Senor Tron posted:

When it comes to the airlocks, I was surprised that when it cut to several months later he hadn't reinforced the blown out doorway. Seven months of it flapping around would have been enough to give anyone a nervous breakdown but it was still sitting there entirely unchanged.

In the book he had HAB canvas, and fixed it using that (and also by flattening that side of the HAB considerably) but in the movie the HAB was rigid, and he didn't appear to have any spare canvas until he used a weird parachute of it to cover the top of the MAV at the end, which also happened in the book but it wasn't, like, parachute-shaped. In the movie it appeared that they sent the astronauts to Mars with literally no backup for if the HAB got more than a fist-sized hole in it other than plastic sheeting? It didn't make much sense.

Shit Fuckasaurus fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Oct 17, 2015

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


Plastik posted:

In the book he had HAB canvas, and fixed it using that (and also by flattening that side of the HAB considerably) but in the movie the HAB was rigid, and he didn't appear to have any spare canvas [spoilers]until he used a weird parachute of it to cover the top of the MAV at the end, which also happened in the book but it wasn't, like, parachute-shaped[/spoiler]. In the movie it appeared that they sent the astronauts to Mars with literally no backup for if the HAB got more than a fist-sized hole in it other than plastic sheeting? It didn't make much sense.

Yeah, I can understand them changing the habs structure, it would have taken a bit of time to explain the idea of him dismantling the hab and cutting parts out of it. I still would have expected to see some random crap enhancing it though like a wall made of storage boxes filled with dirt or something similar.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




One of the things I was sad they left out was the way Mark spent a bit of time every day of his 60-day trip taking samples, even though he knew he couldn't take them up on the MAV, just so that maybe some day in the future they might be able to come by and get them and have an opportunity to examine samples from a 3200km stretch.

Also, here's a video of the Hermes' flight:

http://www.galactanet.com/martian/hermes.mp4

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 17, 2015

Snapes N Snapes
Sep 6, 2010

All I want after seeing this movie is a Prometheus sequel.

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

CommanderApaul posted:

From what I remember of the book, they had enough canned air on board to repressurize the ship from a total atmosphere loss at least once, if not twice. Once they repress, they scrubbers/oxygenator takes care of the rest.

I think that spoils the end a little bit.
The rescue mission seemed like it'd really inconvenienced the astronauts and it'll be a horrible journey home now. This fact (which isn't mentioned in the film) would mean it was just a bit of a detour and nothing more.

CommanderApaul
Aug 30, 2003

It's amazing their hands can support such awesome.

Taear posted:

I think that spoils the end a little bit.
The rescue mission seemed like it'd really inconvenienced the astronauts and it'll be a horrible journey home now. This fact (which isn't mentioned in the film) would mean it was just a bit of a detour and nothing more.

There's a bit more about the Parnell Maneuver in the book, that boils down to once they start the burn, they are committed. They don't have enough fuel on board to slow down to make Earth orbit, and if they don't make the rendezvous with the Chinese resupply ship, four of the remaining five crew are going to immediately suicide themselves so that Johannsen has enough supplies, including eating the dead crew, to make it back to Earth in something like 4 years.. Also, there's at least one conversation post-resupply on Hermes where Vogel is going over the number of systems that are being pushed to the breaking point by the extended journey, and the crew wonders if they're going to be able to make it home after they rescue Watney.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




Yeah, the Hermes isn't designed to go that long and was having ongoing issues, but Weir has said he didn't want to take the focus away from Watney's struggle with another. The ship needed a bunch of things refitted after every journey that it didn't get, plus it wasn't designed to operate in the high-radiation environment in past Venus. Plus the crew got basically the same radiation dose a nuclear engineer would get over a lifetime.

Also, an extra year and a half in the ship isn't just a bit of a detour.

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



Tunicate posted:

I think people are complaining about the whole 'explaining gravity slingshots for the audience' scene?

Which could probably have been done via some other way.

It reminded me of the scene in The Core (bad movie) where the main character scientist is presenting to a bunch of brilliant specialists and he dumbs down his explanation by doing a demonstration. "This peach is the Earth, this flamethrower is the made-up crisis this movie is about. FWOOM." But I think the scene in this movie was fair because I can't expect every viewer to know what a gravity assist is, so they gave some time to the scene.

In the book, the director of NASA had immediately thought of the possibility of Hermes going back, and that's why he didn't tell the crew. He knew they'd mutiny if they were ordered not to conduct a risky rescue mission.

I enjoyed the movie a lot, and I felt that most of the cuts they made from the book were fair. The acting and cinematography I thought were both impressive, and the intensity is great. However, as a big fan of the book, there were two things definitely missing: When Kapoor says "I wonder what he's thinking right now", and meanwhile Watney is thinking "Why can Aquaman talk to whales? They're mammals, not fish". Second, the scene where Johannsen explains to her father that the astronauts drew straws, and if the food resupply fails she gets to eat the corpses of the others to survive.

Patrovsky
May 8, 2007
whatever is fine



Chamale posted:

. Second, the scene where Johannsen explains to her father that the astronauts drew straws, and if the food resupply fails she gets to eat the corpses of the others to survive.

See, I don't know what other people think on this one, but I always thought that this was just what Johannsen told her parents so they wouldn't worry as much, because it feels kind of ridiculous otherwise.

Hot Dog Day #82
Jul 5, 2003

Soiled Meat

Chamale posted:


I enjoyed the movie a lot, and I felt that most of the cuts they made from the book were fair. The acting and cinematography I thought were both impressive, and the intensity is great. However, as a big fan of the book, there were two things definitely missing: When Kapoor says "I wonder what he's thinking right now", and meanwhile Watney is thinking "Why can Aquaman talk to whales? They're mammals, not fish".

I don't know if viral videos are spoilers or not, but this promo explains why the bit about Aquaman never made it to the silver screen. A wasted opportunity, I think! I would have rather seen it on a movie screen than a YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wygmxzp6VzY

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Patrovsky posted:

See, I don't know what other people think on this one, but I always thought that this was just what Johannsen told her parents so they wouldn't worry as much, because it feels kind of ridiculous otherwise.

I'm not sure how "I won't die but will be forced to eat corpses and probably will return a broken person after four years of isolation spent eating the bodies of my friends" is somehow supposed to be MORE comforting.

Waverider
Oct 26, 2001

Senor Tron posted:

Yeah, I can understand them changing the habs structure, it would have taken a bit of time to explain the idea of him dismantling the hab and cutting parts out of it. I still would have expected to see some random crap enhancing it though like a wall made of storage boxes filled with dirt or something similar.
the internal pressure of the hab is so great compared to the Martian atmosphere that there is no way it would flap in the wind as shown in the movie. It would be solid and straining against his duct tape and plastic sheeting. Although the universe as depicted in the book has unrealistic Martian winds.
He has to trust the strength of the hab canvas and seal strips. Putting potentially sharp rocks or boxes to keep holding pressure would eventually wear holes in the hab canvas due to small vibrations and flexing.

eggyolk
Nov 8, 2007


ImpAtom posted:

I'm not sure how "I won't die but will be forced to eat corpses and probably will return a broken person after four years of isolation spent eating the bodies of my friends" is somehow supposed to be MORE comforting.

That's my main gripe with the whole movie (And apparently by extension the book too, though I didn't read it). Everyone is a BEEP BOOP logical machine that is incapable of emotion or fatigue like real human beings.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

eggyolk posted:

That's my main gripe with the whole movie (And apparently by extension the book too, though I didn't read it). Everyone is a BEEP BOOP logical machine that is incapable of emotion or fatigue like real human beings.

Please ignore the scenes spent entirely on showing Watney's deteriorating emotional state, as he didn't break completely and become a useless husk and instead recovered enough to keep fighting for life.

IndianaZoidberg
Aug 21, 2011

My name isnt slick, its Zoidberg. JOHN F***ING ZOIDBERG!

Patrovsky posted:

See, I don't know what other people think on this one, but I always thought that this was just what Johannsen told her parents so they wouldn't worry as much, because it feels kind of ridiculous otherwise.

But in the book after the supply capsule is docked to Hermes, Martinez is messing with Johnson asking her which one she was going to eat first. Leading me to believe that it was a real plan. Ether from NASA itself or a agreement that the rest of the crew made.

quote:

What's a matter? I thought you liked Mexican?!

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

eggyolk posted:

That's my main gripe with the whole movie (And apparently by extension the book too, though I didn't read it). Everyone is a BEEP BOOP logical machine that is incapable of emotion or fatigue like real human beings.

A huge portion of both is spent on Watley trying to maintain his sanity and making mistakes due to exhaustion and so-on. The other characters don't really get as much screetime (for obvious reason) but at least in the book there is a lot of emphasis on the survivor's guilt and emotions behind the other crewmembers and the intense absurd stress of the people back at NASA.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011
Yeah, but planning on cannibalism is a bit much? Especially planning on eating your crew to get home like that. I feel like a ton of people would look at a 4 year space journey, alone, that you only survived because your other crewmembers killed themselves so you could eat them, and say "gently caress THAT, I'm going to try and set this ship so it gets recoverable by NASA later and going for a spacewalk without a helmet."

e: I mean, it'd work, but if you're criticizing the book for populating everyone with BEEP BOOP robots its a good point to bring up.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Oct 20, 2015

Luneshot
Mar 10, 2014

The "eat the crew" thing seemed incredibly out of context and weird when I read it in the book, and kinda took me out of it. I can kinda understand it as a private plan amongst the crew for a very dire situation, but telling your parents? That seemed really out of character for...just about anyone, honestly.

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand
Something I've been wondering...isn't it weird that the Hab can't communicate with the Hermes or with NASA at all? It seems strange to me that a little random probe from however many years ago could still ping images to Earth, and that they could eventually send messages to and from the rover after changing its code, but that no one thought to include literally any means of communication in the place where they were actually living.

Dr. Stab
Sep 12, 2010
👨🏻‍⚕️🩺🔪🙀😱🙀
At the start of the movie, mark is stabbed in the abdomen by a piece of the communications antenna.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

BrianWilly posted:

Something I've been wondering...isn't it weird that the Hab can't communicate with the Hermes or with NASA at all? It seems strange to me that a little random probe from however many years ago could still ping images to Earth, and that they could eventually send messages to and from the rover after changing its code, but that no one thought to include literally any means of communication in the place where they were actually living.

The hab had three redundant communication systems. All of them used Hermes as a relay; two used the MAV as a relay.

Relevant passages:

The Martian posted:

Our main communications dish, which relayed signals from the Hab to Hermes, acted like a parachute, getting torn from its foundation and carried with the torrent. Along the way, it crashed through the reception array.

...

The Hab had secondary and tertiary communications systems, but they were both just for talking to the MAV, which would use its more powerful systems to relay to Hermes. Thing is, that only works if the MAV is still around.

JUICY HAMBUGAR
Nov 10, 2010

Eating, America's pastime.

BrianWilly posted:

Something I've been wondering...isn't it weird that the Hab can't communicate with the Hermes or with NASA at all? It seems strange to me that a little random probe from however many years ago could still ping images to Earth, and that they could eventually send messages to and from the rover after changing its code, but that no one thought to include literally any means of communication in the place where they were actually living.

The initial injury that Watney sustained was from their communications dish impacting him during the storm, thus leaving it and him in a state of disrepair. I haven't read the book so I'm unaware if it was different.

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand
Oh. :buddy:

Panfilo
Aug 27, 2011

EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

eggyolk posted:

That's my main gripe with the whole movie (And apparently by extension the book too, though I didn't read it). Everyone is a BEEP BOOP logical machine that is incapable of emotion or fatigue like real human beings.

I've heard this mindset is what is necessary to be an Astronaut. Not the Cannibal thing, but staying very calm in dire situations. A lot of the story is dedicated to Watney trying not to go bonkers, but the other crew are taking big risks too. The long stretches of time involved and infinite variables in what might go wrong on the Hermes mean everybody needs to keep their head in the game.

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MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




PerrineClostermann posted:

The hab had three redundant communication systems. All of them used Hermes as a relay; two used the MAV as a relay.

It's a little odd that the rovers couldn't talk to Hermes (and more importantly for this story, hacked to talk to the martian satellites), but plot, I guess.

Taking to something in lowish orbits isn't hard at all.

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