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I assume having a "democracies can start wars" option like in Darkest Hour wouldn't break the game.
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Oct 16, 2015 19:21
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I wonder if the Spanish Civil War will actually be interesting this time around.
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Oct 16, 2015 19:56
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Rincewind posted:I'm weirdly excited for the France dev diary next week. I kind of want my first HoI IV game to be a successful defense of France, although I'm horrible at games so it probably won't go very well. Hah, me too, I figure that getting crushed by Germany will give some good insight into the mechanics of the game.
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Oct 16, 2015 20:02
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According to Democratic Peace Theory, wars between democracies are very unlikely and, if you define democracy as modern democracy rather than historical limited democracy, has indeed never happened. So Paradox are clearly just using a restrictive definition within an academic theory and it's all good forever.
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Oct 16, 2015 20:26
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:But also from a historical perspective, I don't think there are really all that many examples of fascist dictatorships declaring war on each other, or communist states doing it, within the game period? That's not really the case for a democracy trying to attack another democracy. Like, what would the government tell its populace it was fighting for? The Brits and the French had a hard enough time getting peopled jazzed up about fighting the Nazis, imagine trying to convince the populace to fight another country which isn't being aggressive at all. At least the communists have the pretext of liberating the peoples they subjugate, either from fascists/capitalists, or from the bourgeois scum who have corrupted the revolution in whatever communist country they're invading. Plus you know, not having to listen to their populations either.
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Oct 16, 2015 20:30
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HoI IV should prioritize interestingness over strict historicity. In retrospect, Germany and Japan had clearly lost their respective wars by the end of 1942. That fact would make a pretty boring game if it were adhered to. So would Mexico/Ireland not being able to join the Axis or Italy not being able to join the Allies or all kinds of other permutations.
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Oct 16, 2015 21:05
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Lord Tywin posted:Hah, me too, I figure that getting crushed by Germany will give some good insight into the mechanics of the game. Learning HoI IV is going to be... rough, since everyone always says to play Germany and I refuse to play as Nazis on principle.
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Oct 16, 2015 21:51
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Rincewind posted:Learning HoI IV is going to be... rough, since everyone always says to play Germany and I refuse to play as Nazis on principle. Didn't you play Byzantium in a Let's Play? Gort fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 21:53
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I like the multiple factions system, but I really hope a lot of these rules aren't hard-coded, or I'm going to be waiting a few expansions or so to try adapting Kaiserreich.
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Oct 16, 2015 22:37
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I can't imagine something that wasn't hard-coded in HoI2 will be in HOI4.
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Oct 16, 2015 23:15
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Chief Savage Man posted:I can't imagine something that wasn't hard-coded in HoI2 will be in HOI4. IIRC they outright said Nat'l Focus trees where going to be moddable. I'll be shocked if there isn't a declare war on anybody/free for all mod. Also Kaiserreich and other scenarios will probably be plentiful. But yeah for the default game it honestly makes sense to have ways to put the breaks on random conquest, or you could easily cheese things. Also there is historical precedent to back it up as a mechanic even if it's something of a generalization. Pinback fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 23:19
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My main problem is the lower number of ideologies- I assume Communists and Fascists can be renamed into Syndicalists and whatever blanket term fits the right in Kaiserreich if any, but there's no point in having elections for them (Which I'm sure is also an option) if the only options are totally different ideologies.
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Oct 16, 2015 23:30
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I just wanted to let everyone know I bought War of the Roses at launch. Truly, I am sorry.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:14
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stupid bitch idiot hellfucker
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Oct 17, 2015 00:22
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Someone used America invading Iraq as an example in that thread. Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Notable democracy.
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Oct 17, 2015 01:07
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A democracy is where the majority of the people get to decide who their leader is. Like America under Bush II.
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Oct 17, 2015 01:14
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Lance of Llanwyln posted:Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence is pretty great, but it just came out and it's Tecmo-Koei, so it's $60 right now(and add $27 if you want all the DLC scenarios). So you might want to wait for a sale. One thing i'll say is that the game is really easy- it doesn't take long to figure out the good strats and it just becomes cleanup far too quickly for my liking.
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Oct 17, 2015 01:21
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Chief Savage Man posted:A democracy is where the majority of the people get to decide who their leader is. drat electoral college! 
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Oct 17, 2015 01:23
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Chief Savage Man posted:A democracy is where the majority of the people get to decide who their leader is. The US isn't a democracy, it's a republic. 
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Oct 17, 2015 01:23
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there are no democracies because every government is ruled in secret by the reptilians.
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Oct 17, 2015 01:32
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Freudian posted:The US isn't a democracy, it's a republic.
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Oct 17, 2015 01:38
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Rincewind posted:Learning HoI IV is going to be... rough, since everyone always says to play Germany and I refuse to play as Nazis on principle. lol
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Oct 17, 2015 01:40
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SoggyBobcat posted:I've heard this argument unironically numerous times and it always baffles me. They are essentially interchangeable and it is nonsensical in modern times. However back in the day, democracy was just kind of the overarching political philosophy [re-]emerging and a republic was the established enlightenment term for a popular sovereignty, the antithesis of a monarchy. Basically James Madison was busy cribbing Machiavelli and nobody had written democracy to be defined as a form of government ruled by the people yet.
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Oct 17, 2015 02:01
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words can have multiple definitions. for some people on the internet this is an impossible concept to grasp so they only ever use one definition per word regardless of context. everyone hates and reviles these people.
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Oct 17, 2015 02:05
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Not in my America. One man, one woman. One word, one definition.
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Oct 17, 2015 02:06
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Asproigerosis posted:They are essentially interchangeable and it is nonsensical in modern times. However back in the day, democracy was just kind of the overarching political philosophy [re-]emerging and a republic was the established enlightenment term for a popular sovereignty, the antithesis of a monarchy. Basically James Madison was busy cribbing Machiavelli and nobody had written democracy to be defined as a form of government ruled by the people yet. Not just Machiavelli, there was a long tradition of republican thought that Madison and Jefferson et al were coming out of. And there is (especially at that time) an important theoretical difference in meaning between the two - a democracy is a government in which the people rule, with strong connotations of mob rule and anarchy; a republic is basically any government of citizens as equals and there are a lot of different structural methods for determining where political authority comes from. And there's also an economic class element - since the majority of the people are poor, it's going to be the poor who hold power in a democracy, but this is very much not the case in a republic. It's completely outmoded because essentially every government in the modern era tries to justify itself in democratic terms anyway, and because the formal presence of a king or queen often doesn't have any real effect on the processes of government so it doesn't really matter that much whether you're formally a republic. So, like, yeah, the United States is a republic, but it's also run on democratic principles, so the distinction isn't really all that useful. Similarly the UK is not a republic but most of the operating principles are the same. Just doesn't matter much anymore. It is, at best, a good reminder that the will of the majority is not in itself enough to make a law, but that's about it.
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Oct 17, 2015 02:09
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Isn't the only 'proper' Democracy, in the sense of 'everyone votes on drat near everything, directly,' rather than 'the electing cunts who don't do their jobs right' sense, Switzerland?
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Oct 17, 2015 02:20
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Gort posted:Didn't you play Byzantium in a Let's Play? Well, yeah, but the various bad things I did in that LP weren't reenactments of actual historical atrocities that happened within living memory, and by the time we got to the 20th century we were radical syndicalists intent on Smashing the Fash. gosh why would i possibly not want to play as the perpetrators of the holocaust in a game series i enjoy for their emergent narratives I mean, obviously I'm not saying that everyone who plays as the Nazis in any WWII strategy game is a bad person, or anyway-- I'm just talking about my own personal comfort level. But for me, what elevates Paradox games over other strategy games is the way they tell stories, of the way they take at least an abstraction of some real moment in history and then diverge from it in interesting ways, instead of just being an abstract system that's kind of history-themed, like Civilization, or whatever. Even when I'm not actually doing an LP of a Paradox game, the narrative the game creates is still at the front of my mind. And "how Hitler turned things around and won WWII" is not a narrative I really feel like seeing play out. And, I mean, maybe that's hypocritical, since in other Paradox games you're probably still doing like twenty awful things a minute, but HoI IV feels a little different to me since it's both so much more recent and so specific-- it's not several centuries in which some stuff that may or may not be similar to real-world events might play out, it's 1936 and Hitler is already in power, and I (again, just speaking personally) can't get over the sense of just what that represents in the narrative of an HoI IV game and just appreciate the abstract strategy or it all, or be interested in the Man in the High Castle-esque historical counterfactual, or whatever. Again, I'm not saying that everyone is morally obligated to feel like this, or that we shouldn't have WWII games, or whatever-- I'm just trying to articulate the reasons why I, personally, am kind of weirded out about playing as the Nazis. Like, it's fine that not everyone feels like that, but I hope it's at least kind of understandable why somebody might be?
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Oct 17, 2015 02:25
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Can a country be part of more than one faction at a time? And do support units on a division stack? (Can I create a super-suppression unit of nothing but MP companies or a death division with five artillery units?)
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Oct 17, 2015 02:31
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Chief Savage Man posted:A democracy is where the majority of the people get to decide who their leader is. America. A nation that is notable for not being a democracy.
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Oct 17, 2015 03:43
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Rincewind posted:Well, yeah, but the various bad things I did in that LP weren't reenactments of actual historical atrocities that happened within living memory, and by the time we got to the 20th century we were radical syndicalists intent on Smashing the Fash. I'm like this. But with the Confederacy. gently caress the Confederacy.
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Oct 17, 2015 03:45
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Rincewind posted:Even when I'm not actually doing an LP of a Paradox game, the narrative the game creates is still at the front of my mind. And "how Hitler turned things around and won WWII" is not a narrative I really feel like seeing play out. If it helps any, "How Germany/USSR/UK/France/Japan turned things around" is a tragedy for humanity and it's going to be one of those in almost all cases. e: you can include the US there probably but this is one of those few periods when the US is on the left-hand side of the bell curve of all belligerents' historical shitheadedness. Admittedly, the US is always on the left side of the bell curve of any war involving the UK. Everyone is.
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Oct 17, 2015 03:55
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Rincewind posted:gosh why would i possibly not want to play as the perpetrators of the holocaust in a game series i enjoy for their emergent narratives holy lol
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Oct 17, 2015 04:11
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People like that guy make me embarassed to enjoy mapgames
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Oct 17, 2015 04:12
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Larry Parrish posted:holy lol
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Oct 17, 2015 04:19
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Why does no one feel this way about the USSR under Stalin? Edit: I'm saying Goons are mostly communists The Sharmat fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Oct 17, 2015 |
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Oct 17, 2015 04:24
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Larry Parrish posted:People like that guy make me embarassed to enjoy mapgames Seriously though, chill man. People can play map games however they want, and if they feel uncomfortable with certain things they don't have to play with them. Nobody's is or should be forcing people to enjoy a game a certain way. After all, isn't part of the fun of Sandbox games being able to set your own objectives? VerdantSquire fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Oct 17, 2015 |
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Oct 17, 2015 04:26
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The Sharmat posted:Why does no one feel this way about the USSR under Stalin? SA is basically a communism agenda station tbh have you read DnD
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Oct 17, 2015 04:28
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VerdantSquire posted:Yeah, gently caress you if you feel slightly uncomfortable with justifying the racial prejudices of the mass murdering mad man! He's laughing because the idea that people actually think playing as Germany in a war oriented map game means "justifying the racial prejudices of the mass murdering mad man" is absurd.
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Oct 17, 2015 04:28
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The Sharmat posted:Why does no one feel this way about the USSR under Stalin? Because communism is right, and also correct. 
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Oct 17, 2015 04:28
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