Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

This is a really frivolous criticism. The conversation TMM "distracted from" wasn't worth having.

I'm not saying that TMM should have started a conversation about the worthiness of NK analysis. I am saying that what Kashuno essentially said was "You are making a distraction from scumhunting by spending time trying to start a NK analysis discussion," and TMM's response wasn't "yeah, you're right, that is distracting" but rather "gently caress YOU KASHUNO." Why the need to jab at Kash? Nothing had even happened yet.

Do you see why this is making me feel like TMM is working on creating a narrative wherein Kashuno is wishy washy and the bad guy, even from the get go?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

Furthermore, what's the end goal of asking fifty million questions of everyone in the game?

Is there something you're specifically looking for, are you looking to frame people who don't answer them as anti-town, or are you trying to go Monstering but don't actually have the gumption to actually hound someone to death until they gently caress up?

Betrayer nails my feelings here.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

I'm not saying that TMM should have started a conversation about the worthiness of NK analysis. I am saying that what Kashuno essentially said was "You are making a distraction from scumhunting by spending time trying to start a NK analysis discussion," and TMM's response wasn't "yeah, you're right, that is distracting" but rather "gently caress YOU KASHUNO." Why the need to jab at Kash? Nothing had even happened yet.

Do you see why this is making me feel like TMM is working on creating a narrative wherein Kashuno is wishy washy and the bad guy, even from the get go?

You're putting a lot of words into Kash's post that aren't there. And also incredibly exaggerating TMM's response.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Quidnose posted:

Yeah, I really am not liking the way TMM is engaging with Kashuno on this. He seems incredibly angry that Kashuno's opinion isn't locked in with the narrative that he has created, and that he's not just bending over and going "yeah I guess you are right maybe I did do that I need to rethink" in regards to that narrative.

It's weird and feels off.

What? This doesn't even make sense. Why would I be angry at Kash not agreeing with my narrative when my narrative this whole time has been PMush and Kash are working together?

You're really reaching here Quid.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

votefinder posted:

Votecount for Day 2

Someone Awful! (3): Kashuno, Kashuno, Kashuno, uranus, CapitalistPig
Kashuno (2): imgay, Rarity
Tommunist (1): MEDS CURE SCHIZOS, Rarity, Rarity
Poison Mushroom (1): TMMadman
TMMadman (0): Kashuno, Kashuno

Not Voting (7): Conall, fiery_valkyrie, Poison Mushroom, Quidnose, Section 31, Someone Awful!, Tommunist

With 14 alive, it's 8 votes to lynch. The current deadline is October 17th, 2015 at 1 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 2 days, 18 hours.

At this point in the thread, TMM has spent nearly a page arguing with Kashuno about how his refusing to take a stand on the scumminess or not scumminess of PMush is terribly scummy and not his normal town game.

While sitting on a PMush vote.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

At this point in the thread, TMM has spent nearly a page arguing with Kashuno about how his refusing to take a stand on the scumminess or not scumminess of PMush is terribly scummy and not his normal town game.

While sitting on a PMush vote.

It's like he cased PMush and also thinks Kashuno is scum.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose you're not winning me over with this "TMM is suspicious of two players at the same time" argument.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

You're putting a lot of words into Kash's post that aren't there. And also incredibly exaggerating TMM's response.

His response was dismissive of Kashuno's point. Without the hyperbole of gently caress YOU DAD, do you agree that, when called out for trying to do something distracting, it was odd that he didn't say "yeah you're right I shouldn't go down that path" and instead made a dig at Kashuno for no reason before pulling the conversation where he wanted?

Because you haven't actually mentioned anything about my content in two posts.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

It's like he cased PMush and also thinks Kashuno is scum.

If you spend a page looking at someone's content and convincing yourself that they are acting scummily, and you want the thread to agree with you, you should vote for them. I know I am in the minority here potentially but I think it's weird he didn't get to the end of that and vote Kashuno. And I am INCERDIBLY interested in my reread to see if and when he DID vote Kashuno, because if it's when the tide started turning towards him, that is suspicious as gently caress.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

His response was dismissive of Kashuno's point. Without the hyperbole of gently caress YOU DAD, do you agree that, when called out for trying to do something distracting, it was odd that he didn't say "yeah you're right I shouldn't go down that path" and instead made a dig at Kashuno for no reason before pulling the conversation where he wanted?

Because you haven't actually mentioned anything about my content in two posts.

He didn't say gently caress you or type in all caps, he said a sarcastic "Thanks Mafia dad" which was appropriate given Kashuno's general comment about the game (which I happen to disagree with).

It seems like your criticism is that TMM thinks night kill speculation is worthwhile.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

Quidnose you're not winning me over with this "TMM is suspicious of two players at the same time" argument.

And in fairness here, TMM hasn't spent any time in the beginning of D2 saying that PM and Kashuno are scum together, just that Kashuno is not playing a town game.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

If you spend a page looking at someone's content and convincing yourself that they are acting scummily, and you want the thread to agree with you, you should vote for them. I know I am in the minority here potentially but I think it's weird he didn't get to the end of that and vote Kashuno. And I am INCERDIBLY interested in my reread to see if and when he DID vote Kashuno, because if it's when the tide started turning towards him, that is suspicious as gently caress.

If you know you're in a minority about a playstyle opinion, maybe you shouldn't be using it as a justification for why someone is scum. TMM clearly thinks Kash is scum, he also made a great PMush case that I don't see any reason for him to abandon.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

He didn't say gently caress you or type in all caps, he said a sarcastic "Thanks Mafia dad" which was appropriate given Kashuno's general comment about the game (which I happen to disagree with).

It seems like your criticism is that TMM thinks night kill speculation is worthwhile.

That is not what I am saying at all and I really don't see why you are getting that from what I am saying. I'm gonna break it down again in case I'm not being clear:

1. TMM speculated about NKs.
2. Kashuno said "hey, NK disucssion is probably a bad idea," the implication there with that comment being that he thought TMM was trying to create a distraction. Why else would he have brought it up, just to tell him how to play Mafia better? I don't think most of us do that as a point of order, I think we make comments to gauge reactions.
3. AND SUBSEQUENTLY, TMM's response was a big old eye roll. Why wouldn't he just go "oh yeah I guess that is a distraction" and then move on? Or if he disagreed, why wouldn't he have said "well I think there's value in it but we can do something else" or "agree to disagree" or anything that wasn't A COMPLETELY DISMISSIVE RESPONSE?

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

If you know you're in a minority about a playstyle opinion, maybe you shouldn't be using it as a justification for why someone is scum. TMM clearly thinks Kash is scum, he also made a great PMush case that I don't see any reason for him to abandon.

Show me the PMush case, if it was D1 I haven't read it.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

If you know you're in a minority about a playstyle opinion, maybe you shouldn't be using it as a justification for why someone is scum. TMM clearly thinks Kash is scum, he also made a great PMush case that I don't see any reason for him to abandon.

I honestly don't even know why you are bringing up a playstyle opinion here? Nothing about playstyle has anything to do with what I am saying, beyond TMM hinging his case on Kashuno on "This isn't your town game." Is that what you are referring to?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

That is not what I am saying at all and I really don't see why you are getting that from what I am saying. I'm gonna break it down again in case I'm not being clear:

1. TMM speculated about NKs.
2. Kashuno said "hey, NK disucssion is probably a bad idea," the implication there with that comment being that he thought TMM was trying to create a distraction. Why else would he have brought it up, just to tell him how to play Mafia better? I don't think most of us do that as a point of order, I think we make comments to gauge reactions.
3. AND SUBSEQUENTLY, TMM's response was a big old eye roll. Why wouldn't he just go "oh yeah I guess that is a distraction" and then move on? Or if he disagreed, why wouldn't he have said "well I think there's value in it but we can do something else" or "agree to disagree" or anything that wasn't A COMPLETELY DISMISSIVE RESPONSE?

You seem to take it for granted that TMM would suddenly have this epiphany that his nightkill speculation was a mistake. I don't see why he would have that epiphany.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

You seem to take it for granted that TMM would suddenly have this epiphany that his nightkill speculation was a mistake. I don't see why he would have that epiphany.

Then if he thought there WAS value in NK speculation, why wouldn't he have said "What's wrong with NK spec?"

Why roll his eyes at Kashuno mafia-dading for no reason and demand the content move in a different direction? How does that follow at all if he didn't have the epiphany?

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

I have to drive home now.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

Then if he thought there WAS value in NK speculation, why wouldn't he have said "What's wrong with NK spec?"

Why roll his eyes at Kashuno mafia-dading for no reason and demand the content move in a different direction? How does that follow at all if he didn't have the epiphany?

Because he thought the comment was worthy of an eye-roll. People have different personalities you know. This doesn't make someone scum at all and it's not a particularly good point for you to be breaking down in numbered lists. You're making a mountain out of something you yourself called a micro-exchange.

So far everything I've seen you say about a player has been along the lines of "why did you say X when in my opinion you shouldn't have added X to your post" or "why did you do Y when in my opinion you should have done X instead." It's what your case of FV revolved around (that FV was asking too many questions of people to get them to contribute, instead of just posting some vague "Lurkers are bad!" post and calling it a day) and it's what most of these points against TMM have turned into.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

The Ninth Layer posted:

You seem to take it for granted that TMM would suddenly have this epiphany that his nightkill speculation was a mistake. I don't see why he would have that epiphany.

Or why he thinks I was going to go any farther with the NK stuff past the one post. I can honestly say that the one post I made about it was all that I had to say about the NK.

Personally, I think it was an entirely fair statement about the NK.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

I'm not saying that TMM should have started a conversation about the worthiness of NK analysis.

Quidnose posted:

Then if he thought there WAS value in NK speculation, why wouldn't he have said "What's wrong with NK spec?"

So you are saying he should have started that conversation, else you wouldn't have said he was "distracting away from it."

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

So you are saying he should have started that conversation, else you wouldn't have said he was "distracting away from it."

I'm not saying he should have started a conversation speculating about the night kill, but it would have been reasonable for him to ask why he couldn't do that. Those are two different things.

You can easily dismiss this as different strikes for different folks so I am not sure this is worth engaging with you on anymore.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

Because he thought the comment was worthy of an eye-roll. People have different personalities you know. This doesn't make someone scum at all and it's not a particularly good point for you to be breaking down in numbered lists. You're making a mountain out of something you yourself called a micro-exchange.

So far everything I've seen you say about a player has been along the lines of "why did you say X when in my opinion you shouldn't have added X to your post" or "why did you do Y when in my opinion you should have done X instead." It's what your case of FV revolved around (that FV was asking too many questions of people to get them to contribute, instead of just posting some vague "Lurkers are bad!" post and calling it a day) and it's what most of these points against TMM have turned into.

It's almost as if I am reading into intent in regards to how people are phrasing things to see if they are purposefully being misleading is disingenuous! :allears:

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

I'm not saying he should have started a conversation speculating about the night kill, but it would have been reasonable for him to ask why he couldn't do that. Those are two different things.

You can easily dismiss this as different strikes for different folks so I am not sure this is worth engaging with you on anymore.

What he posted was reasonable too.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

It's almost as if I am reading into intent in regards to how people are phrasing things to see if they are purposefully being misleading is disingenuous! :allears:

Is it purposefully misleading or disingenuous for you to characterize TMM's post as gently caress YOU DAD or was that just an accident? :allears:

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

Cool.

Please explain to me now what this engagement you have been pushing between the two of us has gained the thread in terms of content.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

Is it purposefully misleading or disingenuous for you to characterize TMM's post as gently caress YOU DAD or was that just an accident? :allears:

It was hyperbolic and I have admitted that!

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

Cool.

Please explain to me now what this engagement you have been pushing between the two of us has gained the thread in terms of content.

It helps me figure out whether your opinions are genuine or just a bunch of overblown bullshit (guess which way I'm leaning). It adds content to a game in which the 20-page summary I got was "people are lurking." It keeps your opinions from gaining traction if people agree with me. It's a conversation that can be analyzed in light of later flips. Maybe it changes peoples' opinions of you, me, or TMMadman after they read it.

You were upset with TMM for distracting from a conversation and now you seem upset with me for participating in one. There's just no satisfying some people.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

I don't buy it.

Calling TNL as a 3p of some kind.

Back to my reread.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

I don't buy it.

Calling TNL as a 3p of some kind.

Back to my reread.

Now that you've dismissed my point outright it looks like we've come full circle.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy
Hey Quid, do you think PMush is town or scum?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy
Also, as a public notice, TNL has not been replaced in votefinder yet. Both TNL and MEDS will need to revote when he is in votefinder.

imgay
May 12, 2014

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Please reconsider my case on kash everyone.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

Where the hell is my SWORD?
Grimey Drawer
I'm glad people are posting :unsmith:

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

Kashuno posted:

Hi here is my list

Town
  • Kash
  • F_V
  • Uranus

Lean Town
  • Cpig
  • Meds
  • Pmush
  • Tomm
  • TMM

Lean Scum
  • imgay
  • S31
  • Quid
  • Rarity

Scum
  • Conall
  • SA

This is the reason I felt OK voting Kashuno with no other content to go on, this list is terrible. Boo!

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

Poison Mushroom posted:

Why is Conall on your absolute scum list if you've never voted or even really mentioned him(?) until now? I don't like that. Hell, upon looking, it seems like the only time you mentioned him outside of jokephase was to defend him from TM. How did such strong feelings come out of nowhere with no previous mention at all? That feels fake as gently caress.

Add that to that you just made a Lumpen list rather than post any opinions, and I'm starting to wonder if I was right the first time.

##vote Kashuno

I like this analysis and this opinion from PMush. This feels town to me.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

Where the hell is my SWORD?
Grimey Drawer

Quidnose posted:

This is the reason I felt OK voting Kashuno with no other content to go on, this list is terrible. Boo!

Guilty. Even looking it over I'm ashamed of my terrible mafiaing

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

TMMadman posted:

Kash, I have never seen you be this hesitant to name players you think are scum.

Calls out Kash again for acting scummy, no vote.

TMMadman posted:

A list with no explanation or reasons for why people are ranked in that order. Not very helpful.

Calls out Kash again for acting scummy, no vote.

TMMadman posted:

That's one way of making sure that you can give whatever opinion is convenient for you.

Calls out Kash again for acting scummy, no vote.

So why does he do this? He explains!

TMMadman posted:

This is actually part of the reason I am not currently voting Kash. I think he is scummy as hell this game, but since I always think he's scum and we always end up attacking each other, I'm trying not to let that bias me and so I'm holding my vote back from him for the moment. Also it's because PMush seems way more scummy to me.

I do not believe that last statement to be true at all. And in conjunction with:

quote:

Like I said, I feel like Kash is really all over the place in this game and it's really pinging me hard. But, honestly, one of the reasons I'm not voting for Kash at the moment is because I think he might be right about SA as well, so I have to consider the possibility that Kash and PMush aren't scum together, which is why I'd rather dunk PMush because I feel much stronger about her being scum.

I just don't buy it.

I need to reread why TMM is so deadset on PMush being scum in comparison to how much he has been pushing Kashuno. Hold up.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

TMMadman posted:

Personally, I think PMush is scum. She spent most of D1 saying that Kash and I are scum together because our argument seemed too perfectly staged. Then with 6 hours left to deadline, she unvotes Kash saying she isn't feeling it anymore because she doesn't think two scum would butt heads so long but completely ignores the fact that one of us could still be scum. Her unvote also essentially (and conveniently) makes Kash an unviable target. When asked for other reads she says she stopped looking because she was convinced Kash and I were scum together. To me, it reads like she is either working with Kash or she knows our alignments already.

So I'm going to start there today.

##vote PMush

This is the case that is so much more a solid slam dunk over his hard pushing of Kashuno that he's not willing to vote Kash. But it's actually a bad case:

quote:

Then with 6 hours left to deadline, she unvotes Kash saying she isn't feeling it anymore because she doesn't think two scum would butt heads so long but completely ignores the fact that one of us could still be scum.

Not actually what PMush said!

Poison Mushroom posted:

##unvote

I'm actually cooling on TM and Kash. If either of them were scum, I don't think they'd be this stubbornly determined to keep bashing their heads against the wall like this.

PMush here is saying "I don't think that either of them, as scum, would keep doing this, it would be too suspicious. Therefore, it looks like a townie slap fight." That is NOT "they clearly aren't on a team together and therefore they are not both scum." TMM is misrepresenting her here.

quote:

Her unvote also essentially (and conveniently) makes Kash an unviable target.

I don't know what this means. Because of the way the votes were at the time?

quote:

When asked for other reads she says she stopped looking because she was convinced Kash and I were scum together.

This is the only valid thing he has in his case, and while it is true PMush offered a reread and then vanished, she explained what's been going on with her today, and I buy it. I don't see this as lurking scum, I see this as busy and exhausted PMush.

quote:

To me, it reads like she is either working with Kash or she knows our alignments already.

The first is a ridiculous connection. Why do you see her as working with Kashuno initially?

The second part would be a stronger statement if you hadn't undermined your own case by misrepresenting her.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

The point TMM was making was that PMush was suspicious of both players and suddenly is suspicious of neither of them. He's right that PMush doesn't consider whether one of them individually would be scum. She just goes from "you guys are scum contriving an argument to distance each other" to "neither of you are scum because you're still arguing with each other." He's right in that she doesn't stop to consider whether one or the other might be scum, she writes them both off from being scum at the same time.

  • Locked thread