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TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

The Ninth Layer posted:

The point TMM was making was that PMush was suspicious of both players and suddenly is suspicious of neither of them. He's right that PMush doesn't consider whether one of them individually would be scum. She just goes from "you guys are scum contriving an argument to distance each other" to "neither of you are scum because you're still arguing with each other." He's right in that she doesn't stop to consider whether one or the other might be scum, she writes them both off from being scum at the same time.

Ding ding ding ding!

We have a winner!

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Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

The point TMM was making was that PMush was suspicious of both players and suddenly is suspicious of neither of them. He's right that PMush doesn't consider whether one of them individually would be scum. She just goes from "you guys are scum contriving an argument to distance each other" to "neither of you are scum because you're still arguing with each other." He's right in that she doesn't stop to consider whether one or the other might be scum, she writes them both off from being scum at the same time.

She probably has considered it because she essentially says "The only way I could see you guys still doing this poo poo is if you are both town." That means she probably stopped at some point and said "is maybe one of them scum? No, I don't think so, because if one of them were scum I think that person would have hopped off this already. Let me present my final result."

I mean I can't for sure say that's what she did but I don't think everyone needs to present their play by play thought process in the way that I do and to say this makes her scummy when you could just as easily say "she probably thought about it came to a conclusion and then posted said conclusion" is kind of ridiculous.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

PMush's suspicion depended on both Kash and TMM being scum together so the distinction that she said "either" instead of "both" is meaningless, her argument was the same as if she had said "both" in that post.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

TNL, why are you white knighting TMM so hard?

redneck nazgul
Apr 25, 2013

That's just bad play and/or being dumb.

Also, Ninth is still scum by virtue of replacing scum. Sorry, Ninthy buddy, but you still have to die.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

She probably has considered it because she essentially says "The only way I could see you guys still doing this poo poo is if you are both town." That means she probably stopped at some point and said "is maybe one of them scum? No, I don't think so, because if one of them were scum I think that person would have hopped off this already. Let me present my final result."

I mean I can't for sure say that's what she did but I don't think everyone needs to present their play by play thought process in the way that I do and to say this makes her scummy when you could just as easily say "she probably thought about it came to a conclusion and then posted said conclusion" is kind of ridiculous.

Her suspicion of them was entirely that they were both scum together. Every one of her posts about them says as much.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

That's just bad play and/or being dumb.

Also, Ninth is still scum by virtue of replacing scum. Sorry, Ninthy buddy, but you still have to die.

I'm 100% not worried about dying this game so do what you think you have to do.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

PMush's suspicion depended on both Kash and TMM being scum together so the distinction that she said "either" instead of "both" is meaningless, her argument was the same as if she had said "both" in that post.

Oh, so you are an expert on PMush's thought process on this, to the point that you can tell me what she was thinking at the time outside of what she has posted in the thread?

Can I have the link to the scumdoc where she explains, then? :allears:

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

Oh, so you are an expert on PMush's thought process on this, to the point that you can tell me what she was thinking at the time outside of what she has posted in the thread?

Can I have the link to the scumdoc where she explains, then? :allears:

I can read her post history. Look at her posts about both players, she calls each one scum by bringing up the connection to the other.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

TNL, why are you white knighting TMM so hard?

I think your points against him are bad and nitpicky. Why are you pushing him so hard, when you're not voting him? Isn't this kind of hypocritical considering you were calling him out for a similar thing?

redneck nazgul
Apr 25, 2013

The Ninth Layer posted:

I'm 100% not worried about dying this game so do what you think you have to do.

I mean, if you're a miller, that'd be nice to know. Are you a miller?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Not that I know of but I haven't gotten my full PM yet.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

If you investigated me as scum, you got a bunk result.

redneck nazgul
Apr 25, 2013

The Ninth Layer posted:

Not that I know of but I haven't gotten my full PM yet.

Waiting on the scumdoc?

The Ninth Layer posted:

If you investigated me as scum, you got a bunk result.

Only one way to find out, my friend.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

PMush's suspicion depended on both Kash and TMM being scum together so the distinction that she said "either" instead of "both" is meaningless, her argument was the same as if she had said "both" in that post.

Nope, I do not read this as what she did. I believe she said "either" and not "both" because she had reread what they were doing and made a judgement call that said "if I either of them were scum, I don't think they would be still doing this, I think, as scum, they would have dropped it."

Which is, you know.

What she said.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

##vote TNL

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

Actually, ##unvote

The Ninth Layer posted:

If you investigated me as scum, you got a bunk result.

3p who can only be NKed is my call.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

Nope, I do not read this as what she did. I believe she said "either" and not "both" because she had reread what they were doing and made a judgement call that said "if I either of them were scum, I don't think they would be still doing this, I think, as scum, they would have dropped it."

Which is, you know.

What she said.

She went from suspicious of both of them to suspicious of neither of them. Regardless of the language she used, TMM's point still stands: there was no consideration of one of them being scum independent from the other.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

Actually, ##unvote


3p who can only be NKed is my call.

I'm not third-party either. Town town town. I will say that my role is so ridiculously powerful that I've never gotten a role on its level before, to the point where I must wonder what scum got to compensate.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

Where the hell is my SWORD?
Grimey Drawer

Quidnose posted:

Actually, ##unvote


3p who can only be NKed is my call.

Can only be NKed based on..?

redneck nazgul
Apr 25, 2013

The Ninth Layer posted:

I'm not third-party either. Town town town. I will say that my role is so ridiculously powerful that I've never gotten a role on its level before, to the point where I must wonder what scum got to compensate.

If you're softclaiming Thrall, I hope to god there's a dayvig. For Seebach.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose voting me after pushing TMM for two pages is pretty ironic, considering he called TMM out for pushing Kashuno without voting him.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

Where the hell is my SWORD?
Grimey Drawer

The Ninth Layer posted:

I'm not third-party either. Town town town. I will say that my role is so ridiculously powerful that I've never gotten a role on its level before, to the point where I must wonder what scum got to compensate.

Ahaha holy poo poo if you are such a strong role why would you put yourself out here like this?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

If you're softclaiming Thrall, I hope to god there's a dayvig. For Seebach.

I'm not Thrall.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Kashuno posted:

Ahaha holy poo poo if you are such a strong role why would you put yourself out here like this?

Because I know it won't matter.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Quidnose posted:

Nope, I do not read this as what she did. I believe she said "either" and not "both" because she had reread what they were doing and made a judgement call that said "if I either of them were scum, I don't think they would be still doing this, I think, as scum, they would have dropped it."

Which is, you know.

What she said.

Why would she move to that conclusion though? Why couldn't I be scum and continue to attack Kash because if he gets voted out D1, it'd be easy as hell for me to turn around on D2 and say "Welp, I was wrong, but wrong doesn't equal scum." It's especially puzzling because I think I was the aggressor during most of it against Kash on D1, so if I'm town and think Kash is scum, then why wouldn't I continue to attack him?

PMush does not seem like she is coming from an honest place and it feels like she already knows our alignments.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

The Ninth Layer posted:

Quidnose voting me after pushing TMM for two pages is pretty ironic, considering he called TMM out for pushing Kashuno without voting him.

Hahaha, I have to completely agree with you. Especially since he never voted for me at all. At least I've voted for Kash during the game.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

Where the hell is my SWORD?
Grimey Drawer

The Ninth Layer posted:

Because I know it won't matter.

I don't get this. You're soft claiming a super strong role and painting a huge target on yourself with basically no votes on you. That doesn't seem like town play at all

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Kashuno posted:

I don't get this. You're soft claiming a super strong role and painting a huge target on yourself with basically no votes on you. That doesn't seem like town play at all

I'm The Ninth Layer, I don't need a strong role to have a target on my back.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Kashuno posted:

I don't get this. You're soft claiming a super strong role and painting a huge target on yourself with basically no votes on you. That doesn't seem like town play at all

What are you talking about? You've seen my town play, I put a target on myself all the time as town. I played an entire drat game openly as the town (role)cop.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Quidnose posted:

TNL, why are you white knighting TMM so hard?

Hey Quid, why are you white knighting PMush so hard?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

I'm sure I'm not the only one with a crazy-strong role either. At least I feel comfortable claiming it. Scum has a janitor which is also a very strong role and who knows what else. Probably good to have that out in the open.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

TMM on PMush:

The initial suspicion post:

TMMadman posted:

Also, if the whole things sound fake, why vote for Kashuno? You seem to think we are both scum buddies, so why be the first vote on a guy instead of putting your vote on the other guy you suspect is scum who already has a vote? Granted the only vote on me at the time is by a guy you think is scum, but the point still stands: if you think we are both scum, shouldn't you be looking to make one of us a viable lynch candidate instead of starting the train on the other?

Also, why do you think Kash is scummier out of the two of us?

The thing here is I can kinda understand "why did you start a new train instead of going with someone who has traction" as meaning "are you self conscious about placing a vote on someone who already has heat on him," which WOULD speak to PMush caring about how she looks and would be a scum tell...but TMM never brings this up, instead going into this weird thing about "Trying to make one of us a viable lynch candidate" which I just understand what he's trying to do here.

He goes back and forth with her a little bit, votes her for not wanting to do any work (that's valid). But then Kashuno comes in and posists that maybe TMM and PMUSH are scum together, and he's on Kashuno's case:

TMMadman posted:

You really like stretching this game Kash. This logic doesn't make any sense to me at all. In your theory of PMush and I as scum together, why would I come in and attack her for voting you? The bold part makes the least sense to me. If PMush and I are scum together, then she knows I will flip scum, it's not an in case I flip scum deal.

You're making poo poo up and I think you might actually be scum this game.

Didn't we just have a conversation about distancing in PMush's theory? How is TMM not seeing the clear connection?

And THEN:


TMMadman posted:

In fact, let's go ahead and find out if PMush is scum with you Kash.

##vote Kash

This is 100% the worst reason to vote someone. Chain-cuddle set up AT IT'S BEST. Don't like this at all.

And now he is hardcore on the "Kashuno is scum" train with no mention of PMush. Remember, it's Kashuno's ACTIONS that are making Kashuno scum, NOT his connection to PMush beyond that initial mention of it. He initially said Kashuno is "making poo poo up" and that he therefore "might be scum":

Kashuno calls him out on the Chaincuddle:

TMMadman posted:

Way to be dismissive of my vote.

Action call.

He then calls...basically everyone who disagrees with him scum, going so far as to say BK is scum for insinuating he might be scum (what) but when derp comes in asking what he should do he doubles down on Kashuno again:

TMMadman posted:

Vote for Kashuno.

He doubles down on this in a summary post:

TMMadman posted:

I still think Kash is likely to be scum here. While he usually thinks I'm scummy, he generally doesn't go out of his way to attack me on D1. His reasons for voting me feel insincere.

BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN IN THE VERY SAME POST:

quote:

However, I strongly think you should look at PMush. I figured that she would move her vote if I put mine back on Kash and that's exactly what she did. I have a feeling that she never intended to keep her vote on Kash and was just distancing herself from him because they are scumbuddies.

I'm not sure about the Section 31 vote because he's a weird guy. SA is just sort of an OMGUS vote and I'm not really worried about it. FV is voting me but she is probably town, although that's based on gut. I also didn't like BKs vote on me and think his justification and reasons for it are pretty weak, so I think he might be scum with Kash and PMush.

These are my current thoughts.

Hasn't mentioned PMush in freaking YEARS and yet all of a sudden because she moved her vote it was a "gotcha" all along? Where does calling everyone else under the sun scum during said gotcha fit in?

##vote TMM There might be more but I have to get going soon, and honestly, this is not the slam dunk PMush case you have been presenting as the reason you are not voting Kashuno today. Kind of the opposite~

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

##vote TNL

This vote is still unexplained and hilariously reactionary.

redneck nazgul
Apr 25, 2013

I think in our race to show off who has the biggest Mafia ego penis, we're ignoring that I investigated Tommunist ne้ Ninth Layer as scum.

I want to reemphasize that point.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose's case can be summed up as "TMM didn't vote who I think he should have" which is a very weak case for all the quotes he needed to rely on to make it.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

I think in our race to show off who has the biggest Mafia ego penis, we're ignoring that I investigated Tommunist ne้ Ninth Layer as scum.

I want to reemphasize that point.

I'll flip town. :)

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

TMMadman posted:

Hey Quid, why are you white knighting PMush so hard?

Because PMush's content has been based in actual reads with content in the thread which have consistant internal logic, whereas you are all over the place and TNL seems to be doing whatever he can to make sure everyone talks about absolutely nothing while he offers zero hard opinions.

Which makes me suspicious of you and him and not suspicious of PMush.

I have backed my opinions up with content analysis. Can you show me where, beyond TNL's summary post of why I am "spewing bullshit," he's analyzed and interpreted content, rather than purely basing all of his bullshit calls on me in semantic nuance that have nothing to do with my presenting my content disingenuously?

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

The Ninth Layer posted:

Quidnose's case can be summed up as "TMM didn't vote who I think he should have" which is a very weak case for all the quotes he needed to rely on to make it.

You read my entire case in the minute it took me to respond to TMM? You are an amazing reader.

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Quidnose posted:

Because PMush's content has been based in actual reads with content in the thread which have consistant internal logic, whereas you are all over the place and TNL seems to be doing whatever he can to make sure everyone talks about absolutely nothing while he offers zero hard opinions.

Which makes me suspicious of you and him and not suspicious of PMush.

I have backed my opinions up with content analysis. Can you show me where, beyond TNL's summary post of why I am "spewing bullshit," he's analyzed and interpreted content, rather than purely basing all of his bullshit calls on me in semantic nuance that have nothing to do with my presenting my content disingenuously?

One of the first things I did in this thread was catch up and offer hard opinions lol.

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