Rugby Union 2017 - AM NOT A FIGHT AM A LOVER BOY

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Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

Scapegoat posted:

I think of Quade better for kneeing the king of the bogans in the head.

I don't think of any player as better for purposefully kneeing another player in the head. I also don't think QC is worse than 100 other players who have done something similar just because the player he kneed happened to be Sir. The Kiwi reaction to this was (and still is) spectacularly immature.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 07:01

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# ? Apr 24, 2024 23:03

TRISHY: Apr 12, 2005

Unimpressed posted:

I don't think of any player as better for purposefully kneeing another player in the head. I also don't think QC is worse than 100 other players who have done something similar just because the player he kneed happened to be Sir. The Kiwi reaction to this was (and still is) spectacularly immature.

One of my kiwi friends secretly goes for the Wallabies because of this.
She is sick of how arrogant and close minded some AB's supporters can be

# ? Oct 21, 2015 07:04

ColtMcAsskick: Nov 7, 2010

TRISHY posted:

One of my kiwi friends secretly goes for the Wallabies because of this.
She is sick of how arrogant and close minded some AB's supporters can be

Please don't reveal the existence of the cells of sleeper Australians in New Zealand tia

# ? Oct 21, 2015 07:37

Mister Chief: Jun 6, 2011

TRISHY posted:

One of my kiwi friends secretly goes for the Wallabies because of this.
She is sick of how arrogant and close minded some AB's supporters can be

No matter how intolerable they may be there is no justification for that.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 07:49

TRISHY: Apr 12, 2005

Mister Chief posted:

No matter how intolerable they may be there is no justification for that.

It's her choice.

I am a Wallabies supporter, and have no shame about that.

Feel sorry for my nephew as his dad is a kiwi and my sister goes for Wallabies, he is so confused. hahah

# ? Oct 21, 2015 08:05

Smorgasbord: Jun 18, 2004; Our review identified changes needed to be made and, in Stephen, we have a coach who has a reputation for demanding the highest standards.

Unimpressed posted:

I don't think of any player as better for purposefully kneeing another player in the head. I also don't think QC is worse than 100 other players who have done something similar just because the player he kneed happened to be Sir. The Kiwi reaction to this was (and still is) spectacularly immature.

The silent majority of us didn't think it's a big deal because it wasn't, in fact we love Quade for the comedy he brings.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 08:19

Schlesische: Jul 4, 2012

Smorgasbord posted:

The silent majority of us didn't think it's a big deal because it wasn't, in fact we love Quade for the comedy he brings.

You're from a lovely place not called Australia aren't you?

I have a frustration with Quade because I've seen him at his best and he can be very good. When he's not there he's a trashcan on fire.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 08:38

The Rabbi T. White: Jul 17, 2008

Schlesische posted:

You're from a lovely place not called Australia aren't you?

I have a frustration with Quade because I've seen him at his best and he can be very good. When he's not there he's a trashcan on fire.

I think he's actually quite talented, but everything falls to poo poo for him the second he feels pressure in a situation. He also looks like he is slow in the head so is great fun to mock.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 08:57

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

Unimpressed posted:

Apart from the actual Kiwis, which is understandable, it's AB supporters (aka glory hunters) who are embracing the rivalry. Sort of like hating Tottenham when you're an Arsenal fan from Singapore.

This is untrue, I don't want Australia to win and I'm not an AB supporter.

I'm going to be supporting the Puma's in the Semis.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 09:29

ElectroMagneticJosh: Oct 13, 2006; Lets Volt In!!

Aramoro posted:

I'm going to be supporting the Puma's in the Semis.

If my team was eliminated I would go for them. In a final I would either go for the All Blacks or, if they weren't in it, whoever hadn't won the cup before (if that was an option).

# ? Oct 21, 2015 09:57

Schlesische: Jul 4, 2012

ElectroMagneticJosh posted:

If my team was eliminated I would go for them. In a final I would either go for the All Blacks or, if they weren't in it, whoever hadn't won the cup before (if that was an option).

In the event of an Australia SA Final which glass do you break?

# ? Oct 21, 2015 10:03

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

Schlesische posted:

In the event of an Australia SA Final which glass do you break?

Neutral supporter, there's always a third way.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 10:24

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

Aramoro posted:

This is untrue, I don't want Australia to win and I'm not an AB supporter.

I'm going to be supporting the Puma's in the Semis.

I'd totally support Argentina too in your shoes, but that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the people who put "anyone but Australia" in their list like we were England.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 10:33

Tyma: Dec 22, 2004; I love Leinster and I couldn't be happier that Jordie Barrett has signed with them on a short term deal.

I used to remember who supported who by their avatar... But then Priestland happened :{

# ? Oct 21, 2015 10:35

Chas McGill: Oct 29, 2010; loves Fat Philippe

Support hierarchy:
~~Scotland~~
Whoever is the underdog, particularly if not an english speaking nation.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 10:40

ElectroMagneticJosh: Oct 13, 2006; Lets Volt In!!

Schlesische posted:

In the event of an Australia SA Final which glass do you break?

That is a tough one. I would probably go for the team I felt was more deserving in a given tournament. However for that final to happen in this world cup I would be very annoyed at SA (because they would have eliminated NZ) so I might go for Australia out of spite.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 10:45

Apollodorus: Feb 13, 2010; TEST YOUR MIGHT

I'm going to be honest, at this point I don't care about any team other than the Pumas. If they don't win the cup then it will just be someone else picking up title #3 and I just don't give enough of a poo poo.

I really wanted a full-strength Wales side to beat the Springboks, Scotland to be allowed the win they earned (or the win Australia gifted them, either way), and a set of semis in which one of them was won by a NH team. But instead, the NH teams had to beat each other up in the pre-cup games and leave the spoils for the RC teams.

So, to restate, �coronados de gloria vivan los Pumas!

# ? Oct 21, 2015 11:25

Schlesische: Jul 4, 2012

Aramoro posted:

Neutral supporter, there's always a third way.

If you're from this side of the world, waking up to watch the final is just not worth it if you don't have a horse in the race. So I totally get the idea of just running from the burning building.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 13:17

The Clit Avoider: Aug 11, 2002; El Profesional

Seriously? You don't think it's worth it if you've no side to take?

I've got up at/stayed up to stupid o' clock on plenty of occasions to watch super rugby finals when I don't care who wins. If the game itself promises a good spectacle that's enough.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 15:48

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

ladies and gentlemen, I present: USA Rugby

quote:

On July 19, 2015, the USA Rugby organization issued an online announcement that Todd Clever had �been released from the Eagles� Pacific Nations Cup squad due to multiple squad conduct violations.� The Eagle�s coach, Mike Tolkin added the following, �Such behavior is contrary to the team culture that players and management have been fostering within the Eagles over time. Clearly, this is not a pleasant or desirable circumstance for either party.� Since then little has been said about this except rumors and opinions. Todd was excluded from the World Cup squad without a whisper.

Todd Clever was the face and heart of the USA national 15s side. If you ever watched a game regardless of how much you knew about rugby, you knew he was giving all he had. That was my English wife�s opinion. She watched Todd play a half dozen times. He had over 60 caps for the USA and most of these as captain. After matches he would spend time applauding the fans. I remember a World Cup qualifier in Charleston in 2013 when the USA was destroyed by Canada 27 to 9. USA fans were booing and yelling at Taku Ngwenya to use his fancy, bright colored shoes. After the match Todd circled the pitch, practically on his own, to shake hands and sign autographs when it was obvious he was devastated. A list of his awards would occupy paragraphs. He was the first American to play in the Super 14 in 2008, and when his 2015 World Cup dreams ended, he returned to professional rugby. He played a match for the world famous Barbarians select side in early September and then signed with Newcastle Falcons. He started for Newcastle at #8 in their opening match of the 2015-16 season.

Detractors who said Tolkin was justified because Clever was over the hill don�t know rugby. He was voted Most Valuable Player in the Pacific Premiere League in March of 2015, and as mentioned above, he is now starting for a top level professional English side. The USA back row was ineffective in the World Cup. Chris Wyles played a reasonable tournament, but he was not the lead from the front captain that Clever was. How did such a bad decision to exclude Clever from a spot on the USA side happen?

Because of the depth of his commitment to the team Todd remained silent through the USA�s World Cup campaign. He had several opportunities to tell this story since the July 19th announcement, but his support and devotion to the players and USA team was the driving motivation to remain quiet until now.

Below is Todd�s story in his words:

�The biggest thing is a feeling of betrayal by the USA Rugby organization. Whenever you change something significant like the captain or excluding a very experienced player right before the World Cup, you are sending a huge message. Everybody is on eggshells after that. It is important to get the right story out, and everything that was said was not true. I asked Nigel Melville (CEO of USA Rugby) several times to open an investigation. I never missed a team meeting. I never missed a team field session.

During the USA 2014 November tour to Europe, Tolkin was putting a stamp down that it was going to be my way or the highway. I had issues with what he was doing and how he was doing it. I always put my head on the chopping block for the guys. If I am stopping practice and saying we are done, it is for the boys. The team atmosphere, morale, and conditioning all come together on the field, and we were being treated like high schoolers. During the tour several issues developed about training, rules being made without discussions with senior player groups, and false accusations, but the second to last night of the tour at the jersey presentation before the Fiji match everything seemed to be going fine. We had beaten Georgia in Tbilisi and were feeling good about winning a test series on the road. We were about to head back to our rooms to individually prepare for the match when Tolks stands up with a piece of paper. On the paper is the list of numbers 1-26. He tells us to rate the 26 players on the team from best to worst and slide the paper under his door. I was livid and disgusted, and he knew it by my body language. This was not how we prepare. There were some guys I had just met when they came on tour two weeks before and some I had known for over ten years. I wasn�t going to do it. Several players asked me if I was doing it. I said I wasn�t, but if they wanted to do it, do it.

A couple weeks after the November tour, in our tour review, he questioned me about if I filled in the player rating. I told him I didn�t and that I thought the timing and everything made it ridiculous. It was the night before a huge test. He said, �If I tell you to do something, you do it.� In the same conversation he told me he did not want me to be his captain moving forward. That was December, and I said, �If you think this is best for the team, then do it. I am on board with it.� I didn�t need to be captain, but I wanted to be part of the team. I told him I would follow what he said and give it my all.

After that Tolks and I had a couple of conversations which made me a little suspicious that he might be gunning for me, but generally everything leading up to the World Cup seemed o.k. We spoke about my future rugby plans and if I was going to stay in Japan. I had offers in Japan. A few clubs in Europe and one in the southern hemisphere were interested. I told him that I knew my body. From where I was, I would be in the best shape for the World Cup if I was fresh rather than after having played a lot of games. Coming back to the USA and playing for OMBAC was the route I wanted to take to peak at the World Cup. He was on board with it. He knew what I was passing up to be ready for the World Cup.

In June I did the photo shoot for ESPN. It was USA Rugby that made the contacts that led to the photo shoot. On Friday, two days before our first team meeting, the magazine came out. ESPN and the ESPYs had contacted me about an invite to the awards party, and I told them I didn�t think I could make it because I would be in camp in San Jose with the team training for the Pacific Nations Cup.

At one of the first team meetings we got the week�s schedule, and Wednesday was a free day. Wednesday was the day of the ESPY awards. I went to Tolks and asked if I could attend the ESPY�s, and since Wednesday was a day off, it didn�t seem to conflict with any team activities. He said it was my day off. I had the schedule. I could do what I wanted, but I needed to be back for 9:30 am on Thursday. I checked flights and could be back at 7:30 am. It was pretty cool to have an opportunity to be part of the whole ESPN/ESPY thing, so I invited Scott LaValla, and we went.

On Wednesday the coaching staff decided to put in a 30 minute gym session for 6:30 � 7:00 am on Thursday. They sent the email out announcing the added gym session at something like 4 pm on Wednesday. By the time I got the email it was probably 11:30 or midnight. Scott and I knew we couldn�t make the early morning gym session, and there was nothing we could do about it. We felt hopeless. We had planned everything out to be back and do everything on the schedule, and now it was impossible.

We caught the morning flight, arrived at 7:30, had breakfast, and were at the 9:30 am meeting. We went to training � no problem. Trained well. Everything was good. After the session, they called us both in and they dropped me from the squad for that match. Scott was on the bench, and I was out of the 23.�

(If you listen to the tape, the emotion in Todd�s voice is palpable. It quivers as all it meant to him to be dropped from this match before a hometown crowd of family, former teachers, and friends flows out and his eyes water. )

�What do you say to your parents who have tickets booked to the World Cup and who have been to every one of your World Cups � under 19s in 2001 & 2002, Rugby World Cups in Australia in 2003, France in 2007, New Zealand in 2011?
At this point I thought it is only for the one match. Their reasoning was, like, this is a demerit. Scott was going to start and I was going to be on the bench, so now Scott�s on the bench, and I am off the team. In the room with Scott and me were Mike Tolkin and Dave Williams. After the meeting I asked Mike what should I say to media. Should I say it is a disciplinary matter? He just shrugged and gave me no direction. That is when I put up, �Awesome to be here. Sad I am not playing. I�m in time-out.� I didn�t know what else to say, so I decided to take it light heartedly.

Friday was the captain�s run and jersey presentation. I didn�t get a jersey. Then if you are not in the game 23 + 2 deep reserves, you have to go for drinks with the coaches. They will buy the drinks. There were 5 or 6 of us who were not playing. If you don�t drink beer, you have a Coke or whatever. Mike had beers. The other coaches had beers. I had beers, and that was the end of it. They planned a jog for the 6 guys not playing the next morning with Dave Williams

It was game day in my hometown. I had been cut from the team for questionable reasons. Then the people who did it require me to go out drinking with them and want me to go for a jog the next morning. I slept in. I went for a jog at the hotel and did my own warm-up. Then there was the game, and we supported the guys against Samoa.

The next day they called me in.
They said, �You missed another session.�
I said, �What? The morning jog?�
They said, �Yeah. You are going to be sent home.�

By the Australian and Harlequins warm-up matches I was fairly sure my World Cup dream was over. There were communications about still being on the call-up list, but you don�t want to be hoping somebody gets hurt.�

Todd has moved on. He hopes one day there is an investigation into how this came about. Mainly he would like an investigation so this sort of thing doesn�t happen to another player but also to clear his name.

Was this an ego battle where ex-high school teacher cum USA Coach Tolkin decided to make an example of the recalcitrant pupil?

Sir Clive Woodward, 2003 World Cup winning coach of England, said 95% of coaching is selection. Does the mishandling of Todd Clever signify significant weakness in the coaching taking place for the USA men�s national 15s team?

WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Oct 21, 2015

# ? Oct 21, 2015 16:09

EL BROMANCE: Jun 10, 2006; COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬

Welp, that's a pretty good explanation as to why they played like utter crap then. Tolkin sounds like a complete rear end, who'd want to play under him.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 17:09

The Clit Avoider: Aug 11, 2002; El Profesional

Rate players through 1-26?

Yeah. Might as well have stopped reading the article there, that's from the David Brent school of man management.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 17:43

fallingdownjoe: Mar 16, 2007; Please love me

The Clit Avoider posted:

Rate players through 1-26?

Yeah. Might as well have stopped reading the article there, that's from the David Brent school of man management.

That was the bit which really caught me too. I can't imagine why a competent coach would think that that was an appropriate thing to get a team to do. I realise that 'competent' is now up in the air as a descriptor for Tolkin.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 17:55

Apollodorus: Feb 13, 2010; TEST YOUR MIGHT

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

ladies and gentlemen, I present: USA Rugby

me irl:

Those of you who are not American, and some of you who are, may not realize that Mike Tolkin was essentially promoted directly from coaching Xavier High School in NYC to coaching the USA national side.

I wish some ludicrously wealthy investment banker with more money than sense - and we have PLENTY of those in the USA trust me - would just give USARugby like a billion (with a B) dollars and outbid the Stormers for Eddie Jones' contract.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 18:06

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Apollodorus posted:

Those of you who are not American, and some of you who are, may not realize that Mike Tolkin was essentially promoted directly from coaching Xavier High School in NYC to coaching the USA national side.

Didn't he coach NYAC too?

# ? Oct 21, 2015 19:02

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Apollodorus posted:

I wish some ludicrously wealthy investment banker with more money than sense - and we have PLENTY of those in the USA trust me - would just give USARugby like a billion (with a B) dollars and outbid the Stormers for Eddie Jones' contract.

God, I've been involved with all levels of rugby in DC (played D1 and D2 club, refereed, coached WPL and Womens' D2), and you'd think that with all the club alumni here, we'd be able to get at least something going on like Glendale, but jesus, USA Rugby is total poo poo.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 19:06

ColtMcAsskick: Nov 7, 2010

You know I've just realized I'm going to be sad once Richie McCaw retires. He's retiring after this World Cup right?

# ? Oct 21, 2015 19:22

Dog Friday: Feb 22, 2006

Scapegoat posted:

Surprised at all the Wallaby hate, we aren't spoilt like the All Blacks, dirty like the Boks or dull like the English team.

The Boks haven't been dirty for a number of years now

# ? Oct 21, 2015 19:24

ColtMcAsskick: Nov 7, 2010

Dog Friday posted:

The Boks haven't been dirty for a number of years now

While they don't really slow down the rucks as much as they used to there is something incredibly frustrating when I see a springbok hardly rolling away. It awakens a primitive anger from deep inside me

# ? Oct 21, 2015 19:36

Apollodorus: Feb 13, 2010; TEST YOUR MIGHT

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

Didn't he coach NYAC too?

Yes but he was coaching Xavier when he got the USA job. At least that's what I was told by my teammate who had just graduated in 2011 from Xavier.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 21:04

Madkal: Feb 11, 2008; I believe in all the ways that they say you can lose your body; Fallen Rib

As a ex-South African I feel like there used to a rivalry against Australia that makes it easy for me to root against them (though more so in cricket than rugby). At least there is a history there to support rooting against them.
Also I just want to see Argentina do good.

# ? Oct 21, 2015 22:52

Ewar Woowar: Feb 25, 2007

ColtMcAsskick posted:

You know I've just realized I'm going to be sad once Richie McCaw retires. He's retiring after this World Cup right?

If we make the final I believe that would be his 149th test...he really should play one more game. Testimonial maybe?

Also I hate Australia in all sports as they're both terrible winners (league, rugby and, most of all, cricket) and losers. Your national sides are full of absolute douche bags like Warner, Haddin, Greg Bird, Michael Ennis, Gallen, Cooper...also your stable of idiot tennis players.

Also I find it funny that they have about six times the population of NZ, invest a huge amount more into sports but are either worse than us or only slightly better.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 00:44

Woden: May 6, 2006

Ewar Woowar posted:

If we make the final I believe that would be his 149th test...he really should play one more game. Testimonial maybe?

Also I hate Australia in all sports as they're both terrible winners (league, rugby and, most of all, cricket) and losers. Your national sides are full of absolute douche bags like Warner, Haddin, Greg Bird, Michael Ennis, Gallen, Cooper...also your stable of idiot tennis players.

Also I find it funny that they have about six times the population of NZ, invest a huge amount more into sports but are either worse than us or only slightly better.

What other sport than Rugby/League is NZ better than Australia, or heck only slightly behind? Netball?
NZ is bad at cricket and tennis which are the other two sports you mentioned, bad at hockey, bad at soccer, bad at basketball which are all sports Aus either does ok in or is one of the top teams.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 01:05

Madkal: Feb 11, 2008; I believe in all the ways that they say you can lose your body; Fallen Rib

New Zealand was the only team at the Football World Cup 2010 to not lose a game.

I just like throwing that fact out there every now and then.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 01:19

Scapegoat: Sep 18, 2004

Madkal posted:

New Zealand was the only team at the Football World Cup 2010 to not lose a game.

I just like throwing that fact out there every now and then.

It's similar to US being the reigning champions and most successful Olympic union team.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 01:59

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Apollodorus posted:

Yes but he was coaching Xavier when he got the USA job. At least that's what I was told by my teammate who had just graduated in 2011 from Xavier.

wiki says both, idk

# ? Oct 22, 2015 01:59

TRISHY: Apr 12, 2005

Ewar Woowar posted:

If we make the final I believe that would be his 149th test...he really should play one more game. Testimonial maybe?

Also I hate Australia in all sports as they're both terrible winners (league, rugby and, most of all, cricket) and losers. Your national sides are full of absolute douche bags like Warner, Haddin, Greg Bird, Michael Ennis, Gallen, Cooper...also your stable of idiot tennis players.

Also I find it funny that they have about six times the population of NZ, invest a huge amount more into sports but are either worse than us or only slightly better.

Someone is a little bitter.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:16

Apollodorus: Feb 13, 2010; TEST YOUR MIGHT

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

wiki says both, idk

I can't imagine that either would have been a full-time job so I am sure he was indeed coaching both.

But surely you can understand why Clever felt he was being treated like a high school player, yes?

# ? Oct 22, 2015 02:46

Schlesische: Jul 4, 2012

Ewar Woowar posted:

If we make the final I believe that would be his 149th test...he really should play one more game. Testimonial maybe?

Also I hate Australia in all sports as they're both terrible winners (league, rugby and, most of all, cricket) and losers. Your national sides are full of absolute douche bags like Warner, Haddin, Greg Bird, Michael Ennis, Gallen, Cooper...also your stable of idiot tennis players.

I loving hate Richie "What's that, playing the ball off my feet? Don't mind if I do!" McCaw.
But he's a champion and if he has a testemonial against Australia I hope it's in Christchurch and I hope NZ wins like 70-0.

As to the other thing: We learned from the best. Thanks England!

Ewar Woowar posted:

Also I find it funny that they have about six times the population of NZ, invest a huge amount more into sports but are either worse than us or only slightly better.

This comment is amazingly stupid. It's like a hot take but you lit the garbage bin on fire to make it.

# ? Oct 22, 2015 03:32

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# ? Apr 24, 2024 23:03

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Apollodorus posted:

I can't imagine that either would have been a full-time job so I am sure he was indeed coaching both.

But surely you can understand why Clever felt he was being treated like a high school player, yes?

oh yeah

# ? Oct 22, 2015 03:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > Rugby Union 2017 - AM NOT A FIGHT AM A LOVER BOY

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