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Dibujante
Jul 27, 2004

Asproigerosis posted:

Did I miss something regarding vassals? Mine are getting claims on everything neighboring so I get to just bloat them by a one province depth every truce and then just diploannex a huge chunk. This seems broken.

If you have Art of War you can transfer occupation of any province adjacent to any occupied province to the occupier, so you can transfer arbitrarily vast amounts of land to your vassals. That said, they have trouble digesting 6+ overextension, and it gets really hairy at 12, although it just gets funny after 20.

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Asproigerosis
Mar 13, 2013

insufferable

Dibujante posted:

If you have Art of War you can transfer occupation of any province adjacent to any occupied province to the occupier, so you can transfer arbitrarily vast amounts of land to your vassals. That said, they have trouble digesting 6+ overextension, and it gets really hairy at 12, although it just gets funny after 20.

I meant more that they keep getting claims on adjacent provinces that allow me to swiftly go to war and get them and I don't remember this being a thing the last time I played.

Ms Adequate
Oct 30, 2011

Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling



Panzeh posted:

I remember when I was testing Star Ruler 2 and a bunch of people complained about how boring it was and it was universally because they jacked up the planet count to 500 so you just spent three hours connecting dots where the game was tested and tuned for settings closer to 10-20 planets per player.

A lot of players are really loving stupid and go "HUGE MAP/MARATHON/MAX OUT EVERYTHING" because they think that's fun.

I mean, I do think that's fun, but I also appreciate that it's generally not the best balanced way to play a given game and there may be, for example, a slow start or long travel times between planets or whatever the poo poo.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

VerdantSquire posted:

Pops were amazing because they added a sort of character to your nation. Not only did the fact that they were independent actors capable of influencing the player from the inside of their nation make them an interesting gameplay component, but just their presence gave the player an idea of what their nation actually looked like. Pops were a great idea that I will defend to the death, and I'm really happy that they'll be in Stellaris.

I love the concept of pops, but vicky is painful.

SET NATIONAL FOCUS: +2.1% cheesemaker daily dissatisfaction amelioration rate!

uninverted
Nov 10, 2011

Fintilgin posted:

SET NATIONAL FOCUS: +2.1% cheesemaker daily dissatisfaction amelioration rate!

But you need your cheesemakers to have at least a 60% dissatisfaction rate to introduce pasteurization!

Erev
Jun 9, 2013
So I'm set to go on a two and a half week repositioning cruise starting tomorrow and it'll have something like twelve 'at sea' days. As such I'm planning to spend at least part of the boat time catching up on strategy games. Now, with the understanding that I'll have no real net-connection and thus wiki access should I install CK2 or EU4? I've got most of the DLC for the first and like the setting but on the other hand I've really gained a budding interest in the early modern world over the last few years. Which one might I get more mileage out of (assuming that I plan to go out and nab any missing DLC)?

Larry Parrish
Jul 9, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
You can have fun with either one without endlessly obsessing over the wikis. I mostly only use the EU4 wiki to easily look up idea sets and policies and stuff.

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.
Post Heart of Darkness Victoria 2 is good and fun IMHO.

Drakhoran
Oct 21, 2012

Asproigerosis posted:

I meant more that they keep getting claims on adjacent provinces that allow me to swiftly go to war and get them and I don't remember this being a thing the last time I played.

Vassals don't just get claims, the have to fabricate them just like you do. How likely they are to fabricate claims depends mainly on their ruler's personality. Sounds like you have gotten a lucky string of militarist vassals.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Empress Theonora posted:

Post Heart of Darkness Victoria 2 is good and fun IMHO.

It's a good game yeah, it sucks so many fans want to strip away all the stuff that makes it unique and fun. They just seem to want EU Victoria edition.

PleasingFungus
Oct 10, 2012
idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off
the defining features of victoria, to me, are (1) the sense of rapid progress (technological, military & cultural), and (2) the tight timeframe that limits what you can practically accomplish (which makes nations feel more distinct) and makes finishing games actually common.

pops and a realistic economy aren't necessary at all to either of those, so I could give or take them.

Sarmhan
Nov 1, 2011

I think some kind of economy system is essential to the industrial revolution and imperialism elements. The importance of securing resource access/markets for your goods, and the growth of factories/global trade seem really hard to get right without an economy.

In the same way, it's hard to get the nuance necessary to have the conflicting political and national ideologies that define the period without some sort of detailed pop simulation.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Yeah the economy parts are as important to Vicky as the family dynamics are to CK

Another Person
Oct 21, 2010
Viccy 2 Russia is a massive dick.

VerdantSquire
Jul 1, 2014

Yeah, I agree that the economic aspect of Victoria should definitely stick around. I just think that Vicky 2 went a little overboard with it, and it should probably be reigned in for a sequel. Or at least make it more transparent so I can see why my nation is currently in economic collapse.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

One thing I always love about Vicky 2 is that the verbiage for pops changing occupation is "signed up". As in "27 labourers signed up to be aristocrats today."

Dibujante
Jul 27, 2004
I don't think you can do Vicky without industrialization. Vicky is the UK's century and it is such pretty much entirely due to industrialization.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

Erev posted:

So I'm set to go on a two and a half week repositioning cruise starting tomorrow and it'll have something like twelve 'at sea' days. As such I'm planning to spend at least part of the boat time catching up on strategy games. Now, with the understanding that I'll have no real net-connection and thus wiki access should I install CK2 or EU4? I've got most of the DLC for the first and like the setting but on the other hand I've really gained a budding interest in the early modern world over the last few years. Which one might I get more mileage out of (assuming that I plan to go out and nab any missing DLC)?

I'd go with EUIV, it's a lot more intuitive and in general better as an actual game than CK2.

Another Person
Oct 21, 2010
Viccy 3 would need a lot of transparency added to it to improve over 2. Such as...

"What on earth do all these different tech modifiers actually do? Is 0.2% pop growth huge, or tiny? How about 5% factory throughput? 1% tax efficiency? Where are these modifiers being applied? Are they additive or multiplicative?"
"How is it that you gain more troops, and why when the whole regiment dies once they disappear for a long time, but if they get knocked down to 100 men they will recover just fine? Why can't I disband a regiment and then train another with the same men from the population? Those men never left the population, and never died."
"How am I really influencing these political party changes? If I consistently made motions in favour of State Capitalism in the last 5 elections, why am I still getting in free market liberals every time? They don't even suit any of the other policies I supported."
"Why do I care about a 30% increase of individuals towards protectionism in a province which only has .2% who already support it? Is it making the value 30.2%, or does it mean +30% of that .2%? Does this influence the stances that the political parties actually take to make themselves electable?"
"Why am I killing no men in this battle when the enemy has 0% organisation left and I have 80%, yet they are getting kills on me?"
"If I am the 5th great power and have been for a decade, why does Austria, the 6th greatest power, take over war leadership from me on a war declared against me?"


There is a lot of demystifying that needs to be done to a lot of the mechanics that operate in this game if it were to get a sequel. I consider myself pretty decent at EUIV, and very good at CK2, but this game is impenetrable. It would also need to get rid of chain alliance war leader nonsense which makes no sense.

The economy is the biggest candidate for reform, but there is a hell of a lot of other things that need some work.

Another Person fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Oct 23, 2015

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

Another Person posted:

Viccy 3 would need a lot of transparency added to it to improve over 2. Such as...

"What on earth do all these different tech modifiers actually do? Is 0.2% pop growth huge, or tiny? How about 5% factory throughput? 1% tax efficiency? Where are these modifiers being applied? Are they additive or multiplicative?"
"How is it that you gain more troops, and why when the whole regiment dies once they disappear for a long time, but if they get knocked down to 100 men they will recover just fine? Why can't I disband a regiment and then train another with the same men from the population? Those men never left the population, and never died."
"How am I really influencing these political party changes? If I consistently made motions in favour of State Capitalism in the last 5 elections, why am I still getting in free market liberals every time? They don't even suit any of the other policies I supported."
"Why do I care about a 30% increase of individuals towards protectionism in a province which only has .2% who already support it? Is it making the value 30.2%, or does it mean +30% of that .2%? Does this influence the stances that the political parties actually take to make themselves electable?"
"Why am I killing no men in this battle when the enemy has 0% organisation left and I have 80%, yet they are getting kills on me?"
"If I am the 5th great power and have been for a decade, why does Austria, the 6th greatest power, take over war leadership from me on a war declared against me?"


There is a lot of demystifying that needs to be done to a lot of the mechanics that operate in this game if it were to get a sequel. I consider myself pretty decent at EUIV, and very good at CK2, but this game is impenetrable. It would also need to get rid of chain alliance war leader nonsense which makes no sense.

The economy is the biggest candidate for reform, but there is a hell of a lot of other things that need some work.

Considering the jump in quality of UI and meaningful player interaction with mechanics in EUIV over III and CK2 over CK1, I don't really see why all of these things wouldn't be addressed in a hypothetical Victoria sequel. Warts and all Vicky 2 is still one of Paradox's very best games, and god willing it's next on the list after Stellaris (which I am very psyched about in its own right).

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Stellaris will make a good test ground for a revamped pop system

Another Person
Oct 21, 2010

Fuligin posted:

Considering the jump in quality of UI and meaningful player interaction with mechanics in EUIV over III and CK2 over CK1, I don't really see why all of these things wouldn't be addressed in a hypothetical Victoria sequel. Warts and all Vicky 2 is still one of Paradox's very best games, and god willing it's next on the list after Stellaris (which I am very psyched about in its own right).

EUIV and CK2 still have significant issues with magical numbers which make sense to the devs because they made them, but don't make much sense to the player because the numbers are fuzzy. For example, how many players actually understand truly how trade works in EUIV? And I don't just mean "push towards nodes you own, try and have bigger percentage", I mean the actual numbers which influences those percentages, production, etc. EUIV has improved massively on that front, but it still has a lot of it, particularly in trade and production.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR
Trade is quite simple, only thing it doesn't display properly as far as I can remember is the domestic trade modifier and the abroad modifier in the trade screen. Other than that there are not that much hidden complexity to the trade system.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


Groogy posted:

Trade is quite simple, only thing it doesn't display properly as far as I can remember is the domestic trade modifier and the abroad modifier in the trade screen. Other than that there are not that much hidden complexity to the trade system.

After a little experimentation and reading, I figured out EU 4's trade system- push towards monopolized or near-monopolized nodes, collect when there's more than one node between you and your destination, etc. What I don't quite get is what it represents. What is steering and collecting abstracting?

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.
imperialism's relentless drive to exploit and plunder the less advantaged.

actually I've been wondering, did they take out all the little ships and trade carts that to along your caravans and tell you where stuff came from? or did I just disable it accidentally somehow. I haven't noticed them in ages.

Cynic Jester
Apr 11, 2009

Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

Kavak posted:

After a little experimentation and reading, I figured out EU 4's trade system- push towards monopolized or near-monopolized nodes, collect when there's more than one node between you and your destination, etc. What I don't quite get is what it represents. What is steering and collecting abstracting?

My interpretation has always been that steering represents pulling wealth(or whatever word you want to use) out of an area and collecting representing that wealth being applied. It made more sense when your trade port was locked to your capital though, now it's more nebulous.

podcat
Jun 21, 2012


Come sign up for beta: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-4-beta-signup.888039/
We need lots of sane people.

Struensee
Nov 9, 2011
Signed up. Maybe I should have put in that I'm a sane person? Would be pretty cool to multiplay with goons. EU IV multiplayer was pretty sweet when I had the time.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


Also signed up. Please don't laugh at my lovely 4-year-old laptop, my family's poor and I can't get a job.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax
The only thing dumb about Vicky 2's market besides the capitalist AI is the weird high prestige first come first serve thing.

fuck off Batman
Oct 14, 2013

Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah!


Fister Roboto posted:

One thing I always love about Vicky 2 is that the verbiage for pops changing occupation is "signed up". As in "27 labourers signed up to be aristocrats today."

I remember once seeing a screenshot of two people signing up to be slaves.

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012

The Sharmat posted:

The only thing dumb about Vicky 2's market besides the capitalist AI is the weird high prestige first come first serve thing.

I honestly kinda like it, it gives an actual concrete benefit to prestige. Though ideally i'd change it to a ratio, if there were only two countries buying iron and one of them had 100 prestige and the other 3, the one could buy 100 iron for every 3 the second was allowed to buy. So low prestige doesn't leave you COMPLETELY SOL, just really really bad off.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax

Disco Infiva posted:

I remember once seeing a screenshot of two people signing up to be slaves.

Don't kinkshame.

420 Gank Mid
Dec 26, 2008

WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Kavak posted:

After a little experimentation and reading, I figured out EU 4's trade system- push towards monopolized or near-monopolized nodes, collect when there's more than one node between you and your destination, etc. What I don't quite get is what it represents. What is steering and collecting abstracting?

I've always imagined it as your merchants' ability to buy/sell/transport goods around the world. So placing a merchant in Alexandria would be the equivalent of setting up an import/export business where your country's merchants buy local goods and ship them back home for sale. Your trade power is an abstraction of the budget your merchants have to buy with and their ability to have the ships actually make it home uninterrupted.

Also I always thought 'protecting' trade was funny way to put it because I always imagine my light ships sailing up alongside neutral/rival merchant vessels and herding them into my node like cattle.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


I kind of picture every naval unit (Except maybe big ships) as groups, so that's more like flooding the area with your merchant marine so that people basically have to choose your ships to transport their stuff, giving you an edge over the competition.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Another Person posted:

I've been playing Viccy 2 for 5 hours according to Steam. I feel like I've learned a lot, but I've never gotten past 1850. Maybe Portugal is too hard a start? Their literacy is in the toilet at the start.

I think Sweden's a really solid starter country for Vicky 2. You have great literacy meaning you can stay on top of the tech curve and generally start industrializing early. You're on the cusp of great nation status at the start, so you'll be able to start playing with sphereing and so on relatively quickly as either Spain or the Ottomans slip down the ranks. You can either kind of ignore the bloody wars of europe, or decide to jump in and out as things interest you. You also have the nice form-able nation goal of Scandinavia and trying to take Finland back from the evil Russians.

The only thing you kind of lack is an easy opening to Africa, but Arumba just started a Vicky-2 Sweden LP and made his starting moves all about invading Sokoto and Ethiopia so he can get his own colonial empire going...so it's not impossible.


My big lesson from my last V2 play through was that the best quality-of- life cheat is to go change a bunch of your political parties' economic policy to interventionalism. A lot of people talk about how crazy the LF capitalists can get, but state capitalism is really tedious to manage for very long. Also factories are really expensive early on, so it's not a great starting policy if you actually want to industrialize. Interventionism means you can influence factory growth up with national focuses on capitalists, craftsmen and clerks, and you also can subsidize or un-subsidize factories to help keep the economy churning.

Fidel Cuckstro fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Oct 23, 2015

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax
Even as bad as the capitalist AI is, laissez-faire gets an undeserved bad rap in Vicky 2. The game seems built around the historical European trend of top down industrialization rather than the American one, which means you want interventionist or state capitalist parties at the start to build your economy and get everything running. Thing is, once it's already going good, you actually can just set it to laissez-faire and the capitalists have enough money to play with that their bonuses outweigh their lovely decisions and they'll just grow your economy for you while you don't have to do much of anything.

Ofaloaf
Feb 15, 2013

ATI being listed as a graphics card option threw me for a moment. Even though the ATI name is well defunct, is that what you want us to put down if we're using an AMD card?

Farecoal
Oct 15, 2011

There he go

Another Person posted:

Viccy 3 would need a lot of transparency added to it to improve over 2. Such as...


I love the heck out of V2 but I still 100% agree with this post

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Westminster System posted:

I see the AI invade Britain pretty often, in fact the AI does more amphibious invasions then people give them credit for. Its just they don't tend to succeed, and if they do they tend to get wiped out pretty quickly. Most recently in a Kaiserreich game at that, the entire Entente was navally invading Haiti who had like 14 divisions for some reason, and they actually managed to pull it off.

But failure is generally the most likely outcome, to be fair. D-Day was pretty much incredible in the fact that it succeeded after all. Its pretty common for me to see Germany in normal and modded games take something in Southern England only to be driven out immediately or a short while later, usually without taking London but a few provinces at best.

Yeah, the Allies had complete and utter naval and air supremacy by the time they landed on Normandy, and the US invasions of various Japanese-held islands in the Pacific were similarly unopposed.

It's easy for us to go "eh the AI invaded but then I ran over them with some panzers" when that's exactly what happened in Dieppe, or what could have happened if Hitler wasn't sleeping, or if the Germans forced Sealion.

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