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Jerry Cotton posted:It's a universal fallacy that programmers share: because they don't actually ever have to do anything productive, they conclude they're not workers even though they still prostitute a good chunk of what meager number of decades they have been allotted to be alive - to be thinking, feeling persons instead of dust - being at the beck and call of others. Sorry about your lovely job
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Oct 25, 2015 19:05
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Series DD Funding posted:Sorry about your lovely job No, don't you see? He's the only one among us who is truly free! Soylent green is made of people! IT'S MADE OF PEEEEPOLLLE!!!
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Oct 25, 2015 19:19
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Skandranon posted:No, don't you see? He's the only one among us who is truly free! Soylent green is made of people! IT'S MADE OF PEEEEPOLLLE!!! Do you believe there's a difference between you and a cashier at the grocery store beyond your salary, education, and skill? Hint: there isn't. You sell the value of your labor in the same way and your company does whatever it can to reduce what you sell it for. Labor struggle, especially in America, is a real thing and just because you get paid astronomical sums of money to sit on your rear end and make computers go boop doesn't mean that you're not a part of it.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:34
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That is a pretty common attitude amongst programmers, though. Because they get paid well for a discrete set of skills there's this weird sense that they are the übermensch and as such don't have to care about all of the petty people below them. It's basically why San Francisco is such a hosed up, economically stratified city.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:37
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I'm confused. What does your coworker not showing up for work have to do with your negotiations for maximal income? Also does your immediate boss not have to negotiate his income too or is Team Labor just the leaf nodes?
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Oct 25, 2015 19:55
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Series DD Funding posted:Sorry about your lovely job Holy lol.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:58
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Blinkz0rz posted:That is a pretty common attitude amongst programmers, though. Because they get paid well for a discrete set of skills there's this weird sense that they are the übermensch and as such don't have to care about all of the petty people below them. Or parallel to them, as this thread proves.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:59
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Well here's the original post with the parts that seem significant to me:lmao zebong posted:I have a question about how to deal with a current situation I'm having with a coworker. Everything's on track, so you don't need to worry about covering your rear end. Management is aware, so you shouldn't be fretting about that (unless it's part of your job to track absences). You say you enjoy being a part of this two-person team, so your first priority should be to not piss off half the team (that seems like it would make the team less fun!). The problem you identify is that there are some tasks which could slow down if your coworker continues this schedule. Since you want to have a discussion about refactoring, why not discuss more than one thing? You say, "I never see you on Mondays and Tuesdays anymore. <make eye contact>" At this point, normal coworkers would say something. ("I'm working from home then." or "I have a lot of doctors appointments." or "Yeah, I'm not in on those days any more.") Then you say, "oh. Well, I want to talk through refactoring ten thousand source files, and the product team wants to have a ton of meetings. How do you want to schedule things?" If, at any point, you coworker says something like "gently caress off I'm never talking to you again," then you should look for management/HR.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:04
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Blinkz0rz posted:Do you believe there's a difference between you and a cashier at the grocery store beyond your salary, education, and skill? Is it that you can easily afford the means to production and can start your own company if you feel you're not getting paid enough by The Man?
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Oct 25, 2015 20:08
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What a ridiculous discussion. Either talking to the person or the manager is reasonable depending on the coworker, the manager, and the relationships involved. The one line of reasoning that truly makes me lol is the "labor solidarity!" within the context of your immediate team and a guy who isn't pulling his weight (or it at least appears that way). If you think the imbalance of power between software engineers and first line software managers is as high as that between a line worker and the factory owner in a Victorian England, my salary that allows me to save and live a good life and the several hundred e-mails in my recruiter spam folder would beg to differ.
Evil Robot fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 20:37
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i think yospos leaked
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Oct 25, 2015 21:00
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Evil Robot posted:What a ridiculous discussion. Either talking to the person or the manager is reasonable depending on the coworker, the manager, and the relationships involved. The one line of reasoning that truly makes me lol is the "labor solidarity!" within the context of your immediate team and a guy who isn't pulling his weight (or it at least appears that way). If you think the imbalance of power between software engineers and first line software managers is as high as that between a line worker and the factory owner in a Victorian England, my salary that allows me to save and live a good life and the several hundred e-mails in my recruiter spam folder would beg to differ. Thank you for taking the time to brag.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:05
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Mniot posted:Well here's the original post with the parts that seem significant to me: Btw, for those following along at home, this is the correct answer and what I've been saying the entire time. Talk to your coworkers you goddamn spergs.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:22
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Blinkz0rz posted:Do you believe there's a difference between you and a cashier at the grocery store beyond your salary, education, and skill? Other than my impressive aristocratic lineage or superior blue blood? No, I suppose there is not. You've truly opened my eyes to a larger world, and I now have much to ponder upon.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:40
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You guys work in weird places if your manager doesn't notice you only showing up to work three out of five days a week.
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Oct 26, 2015 00:19
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I'm in a team that barely appears once a week in the NY office. The manager lives on another floor. But then I have colleagues in Toronto, Boston, somewhere in Missouri, under the same manager too.
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Oct 26, 2015 00:40
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Evil Robot posted:What a ridiculous discussion. Either talking to the person or the manager is reasonable depending on the coworker, the manager, and the relationships involved. The one line of reasoning that truly makes me lol is the "labor solidarity!" within the context of your immediate team and a guy who isn't pulling his weight (or it at least appears that way). If you think the imbalance of power between software engineers and first line software managers is as high as that between a line worker and the factory owner in a Victorian England, my salary that allows me to save and live a good life and the several hundred e-mails in my recruiter spam folder would beg to differ. But if someone just randomly stopped showing up, I wouldn't hesitate to ask the nearest person, "hey, where's Danny?" whether they be a coworker or my manager (who is also a coworker; as in, he still spends most of his time coding). This is a normal person thing to do, it's constantly casting every mundane workplace interaction in terms of Eternal Class Struggle that's bizarre and spergy.
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Oct 26, 2015 02:32
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Hey, real talk for a second, I just got done having dinner with my friend who apparently is a finance manager at Apple in Cupertino. She deals with payroll so I gave her the $130 figure everyone has been parroting as being a starting salary out here. Her response was a look of shock and said, "that's way high, I don't know where you're getting that number but that's what we might pay a REALLY good level 2 engineer." So what's the deal? Does apple pay low, or are you guys feeding me be that a starting engineer makes $130 in the bay area? Hadlock fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 02:47
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A starting engineer can make more than that if you include bonus and stock, at the better paying companies anyway, probably can't get that for base salary though. Is the 130k total comp or just base salary?
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Oct 26, 2015 02:51
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Hadlock posted:Hey, real talk for a second, I just got done having dinner with my friend who apparently is a finance manager at Apple in Cupertino. She deals with payroll so I gave her the $130 figure everyone has been parroting as being a starting salary out here. What kind of experience? For fresh grads I've seen more like 105 +/- 10k salary and then depending on stocks and bonuses that can easily pass 140k.
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Oct 26, 2015 02:53
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I guess I am mostly interested in the number for salary negotiations tomorrow, for a smallish startup. They're cash flow positive, had series A funding last year and I've used their product for a year + already worked with their developers for about a year adding functionality for my current company. Also they recruited me. So I'm wondering if I should hold my ground for $115-120 to relocate from Texas. Relocation package would be about $5k but that's a one time deal.
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Oct 26, 2015 02:55
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Hadlock posted:I guess I am mostly interested in the number for salary negotiations tomorrow, for a smallish startup. They're cash flow positive, had series A funding last year and I've used their product for a year + already worked with their developers for about a year adding functionality for my current company. Also they recruited me. So I'm wondering if I should hold my ground for $115-120 to relocate from Texas. IIRC Facebook starts at just under 100k for starting engineers with bands $20k wide, incremented by $20k for each level, with performance evaluated twice yearly. At a previous job I worked for ~100k at a small startup and ~130k at a small-to-medium company after that one. Apple's compensation afaik isn't the most competitive, but it's got a lot of intangibles. And an actual secret police for leaks, but, eh, well.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:03
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usually large companies will have a "target compensation" where they combine salary, stock, and bonuses. when people say they're making 200-300k, they're (usually) not talking about purely cash in hand but all those things combine, with stock starting to make up much more of the whole number as time goes on.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:07
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Hadlock posted:Hey, real talk for a second, I just got done having dinner with my friend who apparently is a finance manager at Apple in Cupertino. She deals with payroll so I gave her the $130 figure everyone has been parroting as being a starting salary out here. When I started 8 years ago as a developer in the rear end end of Apple (OSX Server) my salary was $87k. I don't think anyone is quoting $130k as starting salary for someone new right out of school, thats more what I would guess is the median for engineers in general in the bay area.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:21
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$130k base could be part of a reasonable offer for a newly minted PhD in stats/CS or similar fields in the Bay Area.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:32
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Ok, but 7 years professional work experience, three years programming experience, I have a leg to stand on to ask $115? Basically my plan is to get them to name a number, and then point out I'm making 70 with no state income taxes, and 110 would effectively be a cost of living adjustment. I forget if that 110 number includes state income tax.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:39
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California has a ridiculously high state income tax, so yeah, plan on negotiating up.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:41
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Hadlock posted:Ok, but 7 years professional work experience, three years programming experience, I have a leg to stand on to ask $115? Basically my plan is to get them to name a number, and then point out I'm making 70 with no state income taxes, and 110 would effectively be a cost of living adjustment. I forget if that 110 number includes state income tax. Yeah. Remember to adjust for cost of living. $70k in say Austin goes a lot further than the same in SF.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:42
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Hadlock posted:Ok, but 7 years professional work experience, three years programming experience, I have a leg to stand on to ask $115? Basically my plan is to get them to name a number, and then point out I'm making 70 with no state income taxes, and 110 would effectively be a cost of living adjustment. I forget if that 110 number includes state income tax. Three years as a developer... Yeah probably 100-125k base at least for NYC (not sure how comparable it is to the Bay Area but they're both super expensive places to live with lots of competition for not completely terrible programmers.) Senior / Lead roles are around 135-160k in my reckoning, but you kind of hit a ceiling as an engineer after that, unless you get in on some crazy finance thing that makes it rain. What are your 4 years of not a dev experience in?
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Oct 26, 2015 03:52
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Hadlock posted:Ok, but 7 years professional work experience, three years programming experience, I have a leg to stand on to ask $115? Basically my plan is to get them to name a number, and then point out I'm making 70 with no state income taxes, and 110 would effectively be a cost of living adjustment. I forget if that 110 number includes state income tax. Not a hard and fast rule, but don't name your old salary. Just say you're looking for higher after they name a number. 3 years programming experience (not sure what 7 years pro means exactly, needs to be individually evaluated) is worth 130k in SV just on base compensation. Maybe take 10k off that for a startup. What you lose for being in a startup is real-valued stock and probably bonuses. So that 130k is going to stay 130k instead of say +20K bonus + 30k stock. What you gain is an actual percentage of the startup company, which may be worth a lot, a little, or nothing 5 years down the line. Note that stock compensation is often doled out overtime, so even if someone gets 100k stock, they're not getting 100% of that until 3 years later, and if they quit, the extra comp is lost.
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Oct 26, 2015 03:55
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Is it wrong to just totally not care about stock? I guess stock is a nice bonus, but anything above $115 is just gravy and goes in to the sailboat fund. I point out 7 years professional experience I guess, because my finance friend was telling horror stories about her friend's start up where the programmer had no real world experience and the programmer's expectations of how warehouse shipping worked vs the real world.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:02
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Hadlock posted:Is it wrong to just totally not care about stock? I guess stock is a nice bonus, but anything above $115 is just gravy and goes in to the sailboat fund. If you don't care about stock and you are fine with the salary, the only question left is if you will significantly enjoy the work. That's going to have a much bigger impact on your life than anything else.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:10
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Hadlock posted:Is it wrong to just totally not care about stock? I guess stock is a nice bonus, but anything above $115 is just gravy and goes in to the sailboat fund. If you really don't care about stock you could probably use that to negotiate up pay at the expense of stock. Totally normal to have the mindset that the stock will probably not be worth much, risk-adjusted, as money will be. Cash vs. worrying about options, exercising, risk of sticking with the company, future bad decisions, etc.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:34
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Hadlock posted:Is it wrong to just totally not care about stock? I guess stock is a nice bonus, but anything above $115 is just gravy and goes in to the sailboat fund. 2/3rds of my net income over the last 3 years has been stock. In large part because the stock price has increased 3.5x in that time. It's worth considering when you calculate total compensation, especially if you think the company will grow in the next few years.
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Oct 26, 2015 06:21
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pr0zac posted:2/3rds of my net income over the last 3 years has been stock. In large part because the stock price has increased 3.5x in that time. It's worth considering when you calculate total compensation, especially if you think the company will grow in the next few years. alternatively, if it's a bluechip, it's basically as good as cash. You'll just have slightly lower portfolio diversity.
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Oct 26, 2015 06:27
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pr0zac posted:2/3rds of my net income over the last 3 years has been stock. In large part because the stock price has increased 3.5x in that time. It's worth considering when you calculate total compensation, especially if you think the company will grow in the next few years. I mean, if it's Facebook, sure, it matters. if it's some random startup, assuming not much will come of it is probably a reasonable bet.
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Oct 26, 2015 06:33
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I mean, if it's Facebook, sure, it matters. if it's some random startup, assuming not much will come of it is probably a reasonable bet. Well yeah, thus my saying it's worth considering. There's a lot of people that joined Facebook when it wasn't a reasonable bet that are now massively wealthy. There's a lot of people that joined other startups at the same time that made nothing. Figuring out your thoughts on the direction the company is going is a part of figuring out what the stock is worth to you. It's not a calculation that's guaranteed to be correct but it's worth taking the time to think about to correctly value an offer.
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Oct 26, 2015 06:42
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What is stock worth in a buyout? From what I understand in a buyout, the marketing and sales teams get jettisoned, and the engineering team stays on with a big fat pay bump. I don't see this going IPO but more likely either staying independent or getting bought out by someone like Cisco.
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Oct 26, 2015 07:21
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Most likely none or almost none. There's usually only enough money in the buyout to hand out to the A-class investors (the VC seed, etc) and maybe a bit to the founders. You get some scraps. For reference, buyout of the startup I worked at ended up in a 2.5k payout for me and this scenario was exactly as you described. Marketing/Sales flushed, half the core engineering also gone while the other half went with CTO to the buyer as an acquihire. Don't know about the CTO/Founder who came with me, maybe half a year's salary or similar; enough to compensate for the poo poo salary he was drawing for 3 years. Although if it was really an acquihire, you get some decent retention bonus for a few years. How much depends on how much they valued your company before buying out. edit: Actually we may have gotten some more, but we had some PMs that we also had to keep on up until the buyout. CTO talked with the remaining members and we agreed they should more of what's left, ~20k each. MeruFM fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 07:37
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Hadlock posted:What is stock worth in a buyout? It depends on a number of things (preferred vs common stock, triggers, etc.) that as far as I know aren't necessarily set in stone until the sale would actually be finalized. Some things will be spelled out in your option agreement though and, if options are supposed to be a major part of your compensation, you should feel comfortable taking to someone at the company to get a full explanation. quote:From what I understand in a buyout, the marketing and sales teams get jettisoned, and the engineering team stays on with a big fat pay bump. I don't see this going IPO but more likely either staying independent or getting bought out by someone like Cisco. Not necessarily. It depends a lot on the reason another company is buying you. If you're buying a company to continue to sell their product, you wouldn't be inclined to jettison the sales team.
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Oct 26, 2015 07:44
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