|
The multiple personalities stuff is fine yall, it's clear that it wasn't added just to make the mystery more complex but to illistrate parts of Magata's psyche. We're not closer to understanding how the murder happened at all but that was another really good episode. My terrible speculation: It's clear that part of how the murder was pulled off involved aspects of the software that runs the facility, which it appears Magata was involved in developing. Two possibilities: she had a hand in developing her own murder, or that she discovered the parts of the software designed to kill her and... something happened. devtesla fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Oct 30, 2015 |
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 04:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 18:31 |
|
|
I was going to say it's going to end up all being setup by Magata herself but that doesn't explain the rooftop murder.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 04:13
|
|
|
Demicol posted:I was going to say it's going to end up all being setup by Magata herself but that doesn't explain the rooftop murder. That doesn't mean she's not involved, but it does make the whole thing more interesting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 04:20
|
|
|
The Devil Tesla posted:My terrible speculation: It's clear that part of how the murder was pulled off involved aspects of the software that runs the facility, which it appears Magata was involved in developing. Two possibilities: she had a hand in developing her own murder, or that she discovered the parts of the software designed to kill her and... something happened. My terrible speculation: She was attempting to build robot bodies for her alternate personalities, one of whom (Susa?) was furious with her over having stolen her boyfriend, since she had a body of her own. That led to that personality loving with the software to try to murder Magata, and eventually escaping in her robot form to kill the director. Moe's beginning to piss me off, what with her "This is obviously a murder!" and her ridiculous forensic mittens. And Saikawa is somehow reminiscent of a Dan Brown protagonist, which is even worse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 04:20
|
|
|
So there must be something up with the sewing machine. They mention that she didn't sew the wedding dress, but there are two teddy bears sitting around her bedroom (with multiple shots showing them and the sewing machine in the same frame) and one of them looks kind of shoddily-made. Two teddy bears, one lego figure, one robot... The A.I. for Red Magic is called Deborah. I get the impression that Dr. Megata is creating forms for her personalities, or at least she's interested in the idea of bringing form to things. Also, the door to her room requires a verbal input as well as a hand scan. Don't know how the killer would hide one of those, though... Cephas fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Oct 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
Holy gently caress show, gimme something to work with. ... Here's what I've got. Even though it doesn't quite match the ability of its sci-fi counterparts, Michiru is a top of the line creation by today's standards. On top of that, it seems Magata designed and built it all herself. ...right? The show drew attention to the living room, which contained a sofa and two armchairs, and the dining room which has 2 chairs at the table. Magata and her alternate personalities have enough self-awareness to understand that there is only one body; in the bathroom scene, she implies early on that the alternate personalities do not perceive themselves as having a body. There's only two ways the explain the extra seating: 1) It's purely aesthetic, perhaps in order to recreate some other apartment. This suggests a distinct attachment to something in the past, which given all the flashbacks is very likely. 2) There has been another person there, probably for a long time. Perhaps her eventual killer? Given what was written in the readme, her murder seems to have been premeditated by Magata herself in some way. (It's also possible that, 3) She's also schizophrenic on top of having alter egos, which would be loving stupid without a very well defined reason for it. Unlikely, in my opinion.) One of the most interesting parts of the episode is Magata's bedroom. There's a whole lot of stuff that's representative of childhood, and even apart from that the room has a harsh aesthetic that's distinct from the sterile cleanliness of the rest of the living space. The fact that Michiru was told to lock the door to the bedroom from the inside also supports the idea that Magata somehow planned all this, and that she wanted to lock that room away as if she didn't want people to see the inner personality the room suggests. I suppose it's also possible that the killer told Michiru to lock the door. The only possibility I can think of given what we have is that maybe the Uncle is the killer and he locked the room for Magata since he understands her and probably understands why she would want it locked away. Despite the info-dumping, there's still a lot more we need to know to make sense of this whole mess. They're definitely holding back important elements about Magata's past that they're gonna drip-feed us as the show progresses. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Oct 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 05:16
|
|
|
I don't have any kind of firm theory yet, but here are some (mostly contradictory) options I'm throwing around in my head: 1. Magata never lived in that room, and nor did anyone. It was all run remotely and via Michiru. Michiru seems as if it can't do certain things such as opening doors, but it could have had other attachments which have since been removed, even moved out on the cart at some point. People never saw the real Magata''s face, and it could all have been just a computer display. Regardless of who the corpse is, the victim could have been killed outside the facility and smuggled in somehow. 2. Magata has a lookalike daughter, who was being raised in maximum isolation to maximise her genius. She could have been the one who spoke to Moe. 3. Magata and the daughter lived in there together. The daughter killed Magata, and escaped by hiding under the dress. But why remove the arms, if so? Did she have to press Magata's hand to the doorpad, then very quickly duck and hide on the trolley? Or was Michiru following orders and holding the hand up? Michiru could have disposed of the arm inside the room by some means, or could have actually had time to put it on the cart hidden by the dress, to be taken away when the cuprit crawled out. Alternatively, the culprit could already have been outside the room and actually taken that window of opportunity to sneak up to the cart and take away the arm. ...But if the culprit has control of all the computers, and they probably do, they didn't even need Magata's hand in order to open the door. 4.The corpse belongs to Magata's sister. The person pretending to be Magata's sister is either Magata or Magata's daughter. The arms were removed so that nobody could check to see if the hands could open the doors. If it's a daughter, potentially the real Magata has been dead for a long time, hence why the sister's corpse would be needed. But if the person posing as Magata's sister was really Magata's daughter, it makes even less sense that she would look older than Magata, so it probably really is Magata pretending to be the sister. And now, I suppose I'm thinking of a weird scenario where Magata is posing as her own sister, the corpse was the real sister, and Magata has a daughter who used to be trapped in the room and escaped by hiding on the cart and then killed the director. Or, the corpse was the daughter and Magata is posing as the sister? Probably all needlessly complicated, esp. when there's no proof of there being a daughter in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 11:19
|
|
|
It seems to be me that if we are to take this multiple personality stuff at face value, then we just conclude that the woman Moe was talking to was not the Magata Shiki personality, since she said both that only Magata Shiki would murder her parents, and yet refused to answer why. I also wonder if there is a correspondence between colours and Shiki's personalities.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 11:35
|
|
|
I'm not even sure what end-game the killer is working towards by actively stopping them from calling the police, unless they're planning on killing everyone and hoping somehow nobody comes to investigate, it's inevitably going to happen at some point. I guess some evidence they still need time to dispose of?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 11:40
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:I'm not even sure what end-game the killer is working towards by actively stopping them from calling the police, unless they're planning on killing everyone and hoping somehow nobody comes to investigate, it's inevitably going to happen at some point. I guess some evidence they still need time to dispose of? I think my explanation is that the radio thing is a red herring. It muddies the water by stopping people from looking into why the director HAD to die, by giving people the easy explanation that this was to prevent the radio from being used. Alternatively there might be a third murder that needs to be committed and so the killer needs to buy time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 12:02
|
|
|
Michiru is the most interesting clue yet. They've established that it can lock the door, but not open or close it. So, while it was capable of doing all sorts of interesting things, it couldn't have thoroughly cleaned the apartment alone. It just doesn't have the range of motion, not to mention the height necessary to dust all the shelves in there. It also probably doesn't have the strength necessary to cut off or move limbs around, what with how its manipulator was effortlessly held in place. So, even if it was somehow able to lift Magata's torso and stick her on the cart, it couldn't have gone into the bedroom and closed the door behind it. The big mystery is still if and how there was someone else in that room, though. There wasn't a spare cart, a walk-in freezer, or any of the other simple solutions to be found in there. So, someone dressed Magata's body in the wedding dress and put it on the cart and they did so recently. Then they left the room. The most obvious way for someone to escape is to hide in the cart under the wedding dress, but that doesn't explain how they got in there. Was there someone else living in there all along?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 12:20
|
|
|
Mad thought: Is the aperture that is too small to fit an adult human large enough to fit the dismembered corpse of Magata Shiki? If the answer is yes, then there's a solution to the locked room puzzle right there. The murder didn't happen in the locked room, rather the body was put in there afterwards. The arms and legs were cut off so that they would fit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 12:40
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Mad thought: Wouldn't her shoulders and hips be the widest points of her body, not her arms/legs?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 13:08
|
|
|
Kytrarewn posted:Wouldn't her shoulders and hips be the widest points of her body, not her arms/legs? Rewatching episode 3 also raises a question: There's a moment where one of the scientist goes "you tell me, and don't say it was a ghost", and the younger guard gets angry and goes "hey look at me and say that again!" Can we infer from that that the guard did see something that he attributed to a 'ghost', at some point?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 13:58
|
|
Fangz posted:It seems to be me that if we are to take this multiple personality stuff at face value, then we just conclude that the woman Moe was talking to was not the Magata Shiki personality, since she said both that only Magata Shiki would murder her parents, and yet refused to answer why. On one hand, I don't think we're supposed to take the Multiple Personality Disorder at face value because whatever they hell they showed in that episode was not Multiple Personality Disorder. On the other hand, this is anime produced by a country that's not really known for being at the forefront of mental disorder awareness, so who knows. On the other other hand, an anime that's pretentious enough to reference the random stuff this show has should probably be able to Wikipedia the difference between Multiple Personality Disorder and Schizophrenia. Verdict: Just another red herring. This "closed room" has more holes than Swiss cheese, and no one has inspected the body/robot trolly mechanism yet. I'm leaning towards the Dr. setting this all up herself, including faking her own death.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 17:09
|
|
|
AnacondaHL posted:On the other other hand, an anime that's pretentious enough to reference the random stuff this show has should probably be able to Wikipedia the difference between Multiple Personality Disorder and Schizophrenia. Hiroshi Mori, author of the original 1996 novel that the anime is based on, used to be a research scientist,an associate professor, and has a Doctorate in Engineering. (Info from Wikipedia) I highly doubt he's bullshitting the stuff he writes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 18:37
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Hiroshi Mori, author of the original 1996 novel that the anime is based on, used to be a research scientist,an associate professor, and has a Doctorate in Engineering. (Info from Wikipedia) On the contrary, engineers are fantastic at bullshitting about things they don't actually know about. So I guess I'll believe it was a misguided attempt at making some clever red herring then.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 18:49
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Hiroshi Mori, author of the original 1996 novel that the anime is based on, used to be a research scientist,an associate professor, and has a Doctorate in Engineering. (Info from Wikipedia) Saying an engineer has a sound understanding of mental illness feels like as much of a reach as asking a psychologist to design a bridge. But I'll reserve judgement until the end of the show.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
Lestaki posted:Saying an engineer has a sound understanding of mental illness feels like as much of a reach as asking a psychologist to design a bridge. But I'll reserve judgement until the end of the show. I'm not saying he has a sound understanding of psychology, but he does have a demonstrable history of researching skills. I'd trust him to handle mental health better than the average writer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 18:59
|
|
|
He is an engineer though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 19:10
|
|
|
At this point it is impossible to distinguish whether the multiple personality thing we see in this is actually real, is a case of careful play-acting by a psychopath, or is some kind of delusion Magata Shiki has convinced herself and others of.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
If he had researched multiple personalities at all, he probably wouldn't have used it in a novel because the reality isn't very interesting. We are probably supposed to take this particular bit of bullshit at face value.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Hmm, rewatching episode 3, the mail slot's dimensions are 250 mm x 250mm x 350 mm. Average female human shoulder width is 395mm, but the victim 'seemed young'. So I don't think shoulder length causes issues. But the length of the torso might be a problem, especially including the head. What is the scenario that you're considering in which the Depth of the mail-slot is an issue? Also, you have to consider the diagonal if you're considering jamming her into the thing. 2502 + 3502 = 430.12 so you could fit an average sized woman through the hole. But I'm still unclear as to how the dismemberment of the corpse affects your ability to do this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
It is also possible that her limbs were removed simply to prevent anyone from checking her fingerprints. The legs were also removed to mask the purpose. It may be that the body appearing to be Magata would be enough for it to be identified as her if fingerprints were unavailable. I can't remember dental records ever being used in other terrible anime murder mysteries for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
Kytrarewn posted:What is the scenario that you're considering in which the Depth of the mail-slot is an issue? Given that they gave a depth and volume, my understanding of the mail slot is that it's a sort of bin/air lock sort of deal with doors on both sides, so a person cannot crawl through it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2015 20:00
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:
The exact moment I saw that giant teddy bear I thought 'someone's totally hiding in that somehow aren't they'
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 00:42
|
|
|
Gyra_Solune posted:The exact moment I saw that giant teddy bear I thought 'someone's totally hiding in that somehow aren't they' Anyone else think about robotic digital control theory and stochastic estimation when the robot unlocked the door? Also, engineers don't necessarily know anything about psychology. I don't know anything about multiple personality disorders. All I could think of was the anime, We Without Wings on Crunchyroll, episode 11. Skp to 17:26. The mail slot could be a red herring, but I think a small woman might be able to fit through, if going in diagonally, based on the dimensions. If it's 250mm x 250mm, then we get 353mm as the diagonal, which is just under that average. Also, the sewing machine looked really, really old. Ever hear of Bernina? For all the high tech equipment. Bernina folks. Bernina.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 13:55
|
|
|
In this episode, Saikawa continues to be an arsehole.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2015 23:58
|
|
|
Nearly all the psych analysis they discussed in this episode are concepts that I've been researching for a psychology paper.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 04:48
|
|
|
Fangz posted:In this episode, Saikawa continues to be an arsehole. He's so good. Moe is so good. Their dialog where they're constantly trying to read each other in incredibly obvious ways is so good. I really like this show you guys. I'm also much more on board with Magata's multiple personalities now that it's clear it's meant to be closer to be closer to imaginary friends than the actual mental disorder usually known as multiple personalities. It fits better with the themes they've been working with from the start, and the argument this episode was a really good pay off.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 05:23
|
|
|
I continue to hate both Moe and Saikawa. On the other hand: It's looking increasingly likely that it was Uncle Director that killed Magata's parents. He knew that while his brother was shouting "I'll never forgive you for this", there was the possibility that it might have been overheard by someone else, so he put that much into his story, but changed the other details to make it seem like Magata was crazy and had done it herself. Also, I continue to be convinced that Uncle Director had a "Turn cameras off at X time every week" override built into the initial version of Deborah so he could continue "visiting" his favorite niece. I think that may be more likely than the "AI imaginary friend gets jealous of Magata's arms and decides to go hug her crush" scenario.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
Its the same/similar knife sticking out of his neck last ep.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 10:51
|
|
|
The Devil Tesla posted:I'm also much more on board with Magata's multiple personalities now that it's clear it's meant to be closer to be closer to imaginary friends than the actual mental disorder usually known as multiple personalities. It fits better with the themes they've been working with from the start, and the argument this episode was a really good pay off. To inform this a bit, an average person's personality is surprisingly multi-faceted, but most people never show more than their usual self because personality is so dependent on context. Moat people are just so good at controlling their environment that they never encounter a context that could bring out their alternate personalities. (See the Zimbardo Experiment, Gladwell's "Power of Context") What Saikawa was saying about Magata's purity make a kind of rhetorical sense. She was so fully aware of her own psychology that she never merged her various personalities like normal people do, and could access any of them without context. This is probably impossible in real life, but it makes for pretty good hard sci-fi. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Nov 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 13:23
|
|
|
Saikawa is far from a neutral observer, though. I think much of what he's saying is really in the context of his own situation. He envies Magata's boldness and notoriety, he wants to place someone who he considers a personal hero on a bit of a pedestal. Crazy theory time (if I make enough of these one must surely be right): The point that the doll, unlike the other personalities, was not based on a dead person makes me think. What if the doll did do the murder? How it might work is, say, if the doll contained a speaker or such device, that someone might use to give Magata instructions, that she would mistake as her own thoughts through the Michuru personality. It might be significant that the doll was destroyed following the murder. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Nov 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 13:40
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Saikawa is far from a neutral observer, though. I think much of what he's saying is really in the context of his own situation. He envies Magata's boldness and notoriety, he wants to place someone who he considers a personal hero on a bit of a pedestal. That's definitely part of it. He's in denial, but a weird kind of self-aware denial. He seems to see himself as a lesser human as a result, since he considers her the perfect human. I wonder why he developed such a mindset though. Fangz posted:Crazy theory time (if I make enough of these one must surely be right): I am 90% sure "doll" is meant figuratively in direct relation to the Michiru personality. It would be really weird if the show went for a convoluted mechanical solution after all of its psych talk and philosobabble. Also by Ocham's Razer it just makes more sense that Magata is just that unhinged.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 15:12
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:That's definitely part of it. He's in denial, but a weird kind of self-aware denial. He seems to see himself as a lesser human as a result, since he considers her the perfect human. I wonder why he developed such a mindset though. I mainly find this theory appealing because it repudiates Saikawa's reasoning. It would be due to Magata's arrogant self-isolation that she becomes vulnerable to that sort of manipulation. Also 'just unhinged' would be disappointing, I think there are clear rules being shown to us. EDIT: One other thing, the person Magata said was with Moe when her parents died... that's Saikawa, isn't it? Hmm, thinking that, that sequence reads very differently. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2015 15:36
|
|
|
I think Saikawa knows that Moe is in love with him but doesn't believe he's good enough for her, so he treats her poorly, hoping she'll give up on him. If a doll killed Magata's parents, and one of her personalities, is a doll, well..... Magata is clearly insane. In my very limited experience, extremely smart people tend to have... issues... anyway. At least the few I've known personally have. Also, I fail to see the draw to wearing one of these, but I suppose I might buy one if I could get one with a pocket: 
Dan7el fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2015 02:14
|
|
|
In this episode, alcoholism is moe.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
Just because it says 0% on it doesn't mean that there isn't any alcohol in it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 18:31 |
|
|
Fangz posted:Also 'just unhinged' would be disappointing, I think there are clear rules being shown to us. There can be rules behind the insanity of insane people. That doesn't make them less insane from the perspective of the non-insane.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 03:14
|
|