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It is known that Stalin was awfully quiet at the peace conference.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:14
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Randarkman posted:Can you demand other stuff than territorial changes and puppet status? Like supplies of resources, control of portion of civilian industry (to represent reparations), marking up demilitarized zones (which would stop others from demanding the state), releasing independent (or puppet states), forced disarmament, regime change, transfer of puppets, etc. I hope this is also part of the conference system at some point- although I imagine inter-ally negotiations may be a difficult thing to overlay on the current system. At least until everyone gets enough experience with this system to think through exactly how to best handle that..
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Oct 30, 2015 16:23
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-31th-development-diary-30th-of-october-2015.889096/ End Turn button spotted  I think one of the biggest things that always stops me from going back to CK2 is the peace mechanics, having to figure out which option to pick when going to war (will this person become my vassal or not???) and then not having anything other than Win/White Peace/Lose options. Did they ever change those at any point? Been a while since I played it.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:25
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:End Turn button spotted There is still only total victory where you take the wargoal, white peace or surrender, but they have added in a couple CBs, such as the tributary CB. You can use that on any neighbours to force them to pay you until your or their ruler dies (not sure which), and they are also counted as an ally for your nation which you can call into war, which I don't think they can refuse. However, as a tributary, you must also protect them against threats. You basically turn them into a low maintenance temporary vassal.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:33
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What actually happens after the war is over in Hearts of Iron? The peace mechanics look really nice (and I guess they'll feature in smaller wars before the huge one too), but for the giant peace what incentive is there to actually getting really good terms for yourself? Doesn't the game just end like immediately afterwards? Also how are the casualties having an impact on your contribution going to relate to China? 'Cause they had casualties in the millions but pretty much no say in the peace whatsoever.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:34
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Fintilgin posted:Looking at that I think a good DLC/big expansion for HOI4 would be one that takes the game into the mid/late 50s and assumes that the Cold War is going to go hot or at least allow you make it do so. Actually I think it's sufficient in and of itself. Paradox games don't have endings, they have 'the clock ran out, here is your arbitrary score', and this works for every game... except HOI. HOI has always felt like it needed a bit more of a 'this is what the post-war world looks like' moment in order to contextualise your victory (or loss) and how well you did objectively and comparatively with your co-belligerents.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:34
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quote:OMG OMG OMG!!!I love this...I just dont understand this Radical Yugoslavia?what is that?What is ur point in that?If u look at history govermant wonted to give Hitler free pass thru country so they can go and help italians i greece and to sign some sort of package, but then the people rebelled because he did not want and with protests and shouts better war than pact better grave than slave government was forced to change his mind with regard to time..so that about radical Yugoslavia in the absurd I love historical flexibility EXCEPT WHEN YOU BRING HONOR TO YUGOSLAV DOG
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Oct 30, 2015 16:34
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Another Person posted:There is still only total victory where you take the wargoal, white peace or surrender, but they have added in a couple CBs, such as the tributary CB. You can use that on any neighbours to force them to pay you until your or their ruler dies (not sure which), and they are also counted as an ally for your nation which you can call into war, which I don't think they can refuse. However, as a tributary, you must also protect them against threats. Whichever comes first. Also tributaries are ridiculously OP because they are almost always forced to respond to your call to arms, so they're almost better than regular vassals. I don't remember if they count against your vassal limit though.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:35
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:End Turn button spotted Holy wars have less binary results but you don't get to pick and choose in a debate, its based on force projection. But a good Spain or Viking based game is a good change of pace since it acts a little more like the Total War series (but still not EU4). Basically CK2's reason to exist is to let you play as a medieval lawyer.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:36
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Koramei posted:What actually happens after the war is over in Hearts of Iron? The peace mechanics look really nice (and I guess they'll feature in smaller wars before the huge one too), but for the giant peace what incentive is there to actually getting really good terms for yourself? Doesn't the game just end like immediately afterwards? Obviously there can be peace-treaties outside the main one for WW2. Plus I think each nation can be defeated on their own, or at least Germany / Japan. Also opens up for expansions / cold war stuff even if it's just to kick off WW3 (with very few nukes). The CK2 war-diplomacy mechanics feels very arcane and uninformative ("why is the declare war button greyed out?") and in mods like the Warhammer one it doesn't really work/fit at all. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 16:37
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Alchenar posted:Actually I think it's sufficient in and of itself. Paradox games don't have endings, they have 'the clock ran out, here is your arbitrary score', and this works for every game... except HOI. I think adding the start of a Cold War to showcase how the world changes based on what happened in WW2 actually sounds like it would be really good. In most Paradox games I don't even play to the end, but Hearts of Iron is quite a bit shorter than CK2 and EU4 isn't it? So having a solid ending might actually be really important. Koramei fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 16:38
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Koramei posted:The peace mechanics look really nice (and I guess they'll feature in smaller wars before the huge one too), but for the giant peace what incentive is there to actually getting really good terms for yourself? Doesn't the game just end like immediately afterwards? cheevos
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Oct 30, 2015 16:38
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I think it's interesting how much that DD focuses on the postwar, with possible tensions based on the results of the peace conference. Have they ever specified an end-date? It almost seems like they're setting up for Cold War stuff in later DLC, though that's probably wishful thinking, I imagine coming up with mechanics that work for both WW2 and the Cold War is probably a pretty big task. E: wow like a million people posted this same thing while I was typing. Punished Chuck fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 16:39
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Koramei posted:What actually happens after the war is over in Hearts of Iron? The peace mechanics look really nice (and I guess they'll feature in smaller wars before the huge one too), but for the giant peace what incentive is there to actually getting really good terms for yourself? Doesn't the game just end like immediately afterwards? I think the incentive might just be nice-map peen. Also lord knows every PDX player turns off the game's end date usually before their first playthrough anyways. There is still the question of if/how the game breaks up the 'big war' in to smaller wars. Like I'm assuming at some point the Axis divides up Poland and France even though England is still alive and kicking. Also my guess is they'll do a 'cheat' similar to 3 to get around China again. China will technically lose a war and be put in to a non-aggression pact with Japan as a 'separate' war from the overall World War.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:41
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Koramei posted:I think adding the start of a Cold War to showcase how the world changes based on what happened in WW2 actually sounds like it would be really good. I'm guessing that if anything the most impact it will have is to provide a punctuation mark for the end of MP games.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:41
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zedprime posted:That's CK2's schtick. Everything is bound by some international religious rule of law so you either prove your point, agree to disagree, or outright lose. Aggression is less total war and more legal trial by fire and God will let the true owner of the province prevail. Did they at least add a tooltip for pressing someone else's claims to say if they will become your vassal or not? That's the one that always drove me crazy the most. But yeah I guess I see the point about it the war mechanics, I guess I just like the EU4 mechanics better even if they wouldn't make sense in CK2.
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Oct 30, 2015 16:41
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The only "hard ending" that HoI3 had was the end date. This could be easily changed by editing one text file. Then expansions added the faction goals or whatever they're called which could end the game faster if you picked enough easy objectives.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:05
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Koramei posted:What actually happens after the war is over in Hearts of Iron? The peace mechanics look really nice (and I guess they'll feature in smaller wars before the huge one too), but for the giant peace what incentive is there to actually getting really good terms for yourself? Doesn't the game just end like immediately afterwards? Maybe casualties could multiply the value of other contributions? Since China took no territory its casualties might give it no leverage. Or perhaps different contributions affect the cost of different demands, and China's high casualty count and zero territorial claim could enable it to demand the return of all of its cores but not a claim on anything else. e: or just throw in a Jiang Kaishek modifier that makes your country inept.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:09
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Alchenar posted:Actually I think it's sufficient in and of itself. Paradox games don't have endings, they have 'the clock ran out, here is your arbitrary score', and this works for every game... except HOI. I think some kind of epilogue slideshow would be ridiculously cool in theory, but probably insanely hard to make it work as anything more than a very shallow "Then there was a Cold War between WINNER FACTION 1 and WINNER FACTION 2".
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Oct 30, 2015 17:13
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Larry Parrish posted:Whichever comes first. Also tributaries are ridiculously OP because they are almost always forced to respond to your call to arms, so they're almost better than regular vassals. I don't remember if they count against your vassal limit though. They do not count against your vassal limit. I once had all of the tribes bordering Khazaria as tributary states, as well as Armenia, Byzantium and the Abbassid Dynasty.  Note: I have whoever was ruling Sweden and Norway as a tributary too. They just didn't fit in the pic. Also, the Bajanid's were only independent for another 5 months before they began the transition into paying me a monthly stipend for letting them have castles on my border.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:14
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DStecks posted:I think some kind of epilogue slideshow would be ridiculously cool in theory, but probably insanely hard to make it work as anything more than a very shallow "Then there was a Cold War between WINNER FACTION 1 and WINNER FACTION 2". War, war never changes.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:16
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I assume your state has to exist as something other than a government-in-exile for its casualties to matter (Which I'm sure is what Mackus was referring to  ). China's only claims on the Axis were Manchukuo and Taiwan (Plus Japan's foreign concessions, please god let the map be small enough for those, Kaiserreich will be so improved for it), which they got. There was also the whole civil war issue...
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Oct 30, 2015 17:16
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As long as I can divide all the things it'll be good.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:21
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Westminster System posted:As long as I can divide all the things it'll be good. What the hell did you do? 
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Oct 30, 2015 17:24
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DStecks posted:I think some kind of epilogue slideshow would be ridiculously cool in theory, but probably insanely hard to make it work as anything more than a very shallow "Then there was a Cold War between WINNER FACTION 1 and WINNER FACTION 2". Yeah I don't mean in that sense, I mean in a 'this is literally what the borders look like now that the shooting has stopped' sense in a way that actually reacts to how the game played out and it's the result of a clunky events system firing and doing weird things.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:31
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Westminster System posted:As long as I can divide all the things it'll be good. My favorite part is the random enclave in Libya.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:37
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Britain's parents shipped him off to military school. Belgium and the Netherlands grew up to build skyscrapers. Germany went to college and became a pediatrician. France played triple A ball and never got to the majors. The USSR got really into the sixities and no one ever saw him again. America grew up and married Wendy Peffercorn; they bought the Five & Dime and they still own it to this day. Switzerland lived to be 199 years old... in human years.
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Oct 30, 2015 17:41
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popewiles posted:Britain's parents shipped him off to military school. Belgium and the Netherlands grew up to build skyscrapers. Germany went to college and became a pediatrician. France played triple A ball and never got to the majors. The USSR got really into the sixities and no one ever saw him again. America grew up and married Wendy Peffercorn; they bought the Five & Dime and they still own it to this day. Switzerland lived to be 199 years old... in human years. Ok but now can we get an intro to HoI in the vein of The Royal Tenanbaums? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9DaEOrFgk8
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Oct 30, 2015 17:44
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Kavak posted:What the hell did you do? Went through Italy after getting bogged down in Western Germany. Didn't stop there because reasons. The USA had already annexed Italy and been pushed all the way back to Sicily so, what can I say,. I'm a scummy communist who must spread the revolution no matter the border cost. 
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Oct 30, 2015 17:46
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popewiles posted:Britain's parents shipped him off to military school. Belgium and the Netherlands grew up to build skyscrapers. Germany went to college and became a pediatrician. France played triple A ball and never got to the majors. The USSR got really into the sixities and no one ever saw him again. America grew up and married Wendy Peffercorn; they bought the Five & Dime and they still own it to this day. Switzerland lived to be 199 years old... in human years. Poland: Whereabouts Unknown. Czechoslovakia: Married 1945. Divorced 1993. Yugoslavia: Killed by his own troops in Slovenia. Kavak fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 17:48
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Kavak posted:Poland: Space  Everyone knows this.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:01
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Did they at least add a tooltip for pressing someone else's claims to say if they will become your vassal or not? That's the one that always drove me crazy the most. That's just dipping your toes in the water though, and if you don't want to jump into the political bog that is CK2 to tell that at a glance and in advance so you can set up elaborate marriage plots, its not a great game because just forging and pressing claims is kind of an awful gameplay loop even if it makes you an immortal big blob.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:13
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Cold War DLC is a nifty idea but I can't imagine how it would work in practice, you just run into the same problem as East VS West, that postwar -> present isn't really about HoIs style mass warfare. I'm sure everyone is tired of jerking off to how awesome Victoria is, but that honestly seems like the better model for such a game to me, all about the development and political influence game with periodic crisis showdowns over random parts of the globe.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:30
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Fuligin posted:Cold War DLC is a nifty idea but I can't imagine how it would work in practice, you just run into the same problem as East VS West, that postwar -> present isn't really about HoIs style mass warfare. I'm sure everyone is tired of jerking off to how awesome Victoria is, but that honestly seems like the better model for such a game to me, all about the development and political influence game with periodic crisis showdowns over random parts of the globe. Victoria wouldn't really be right either, though it would be better. A cold war game should have mechanics emphasizing diplomacy and espionage as the most important aspects, with economics, technological development and proxy warfare being lesser but important aspects feeding into and driving those two. HoI4's world tension mechanic, peace conferences and factions would fit a cold war game pretty well actually. Though it should be utilized differently and you should have some sort of combination of HoD's crisis system and the world tension dynamic in order to do diplomacy through the UN and stuff. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 18:34
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Randarkman posted:HoI4's world tension mechanic, peace conferences and factions would fit a cold war game pretty well actually. Though it should be utilized differently and you should have some sort of combination of HoD's crisis system and the world tension dynamic in order to do diplomacy through the UN and stuff.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:HoI seems pretty focused on a singular climax though, with the game being built upon escalating tensions and war, with a mad dash to the finish to end it in the way most favorable to your side, followed by a peace conference to wind things back down again. That's basically a standard three act structure, and adding a bunch of Cold War at the end seems to me like I would just drag the game out without anything to really compare to the excitement of the war itself. If you wanted to expand on that it would be some Operation Unthinkable thing, which would work within the existing structure, rather than be some weird extra thing at the end. That seems like it's already there actually, going by the last few words in the DD, but it could probably be expanded upon. Oh, I completely agree. I just think that some of the mechanics they've revealed for HoI 4 so far could, properly implemented in a game where total war is not the main feature, work very well for a Cold War grand strategy game.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:20
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Yeah if they do Cold War DLC it would have to be some sort of althist thing to extend the timeline through the 50s allowing for a post- peace conference showdown.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:56
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Any HoI cold war stuff would be a misnomer anyway, as there's nothing "cold" about what would be going on up to the 60s.
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Oct 30, 2015 20:10
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Leaving everything else aside, it seems like if the game supports a lot of alt-history branches setting the timeline back a few years seems well-advised since there's no guarantee that whatever wacko war that's cropped up will be finished by 1945-6. Though, when I went looking for HoI2's original end date, it seems like HoI2's expansions pushed the end date back to 1953 and 1964 respectively, anyways, so this shouldn't really be breaking much new ground, should it?
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Oct 30, 2015 20:11
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StashAugustine posted:Yeah if they do Cold War DLC it would have to be some sort of althist thing to extend the timeline through the 50s allowing for a post- peace conference showdown. Yeah, I was picturing more an early coldwar themed sandbox extension that lets you fight some early cold war conflicts after smashing out your version of WW2. Systems driven based off what your history was NOT event driven based off our history. I think a 'sandbox' DLC would be crazy fun too. Have the game randomly generate semi-balanced nations named off regions like the EUIV generator, so you've got Red Texas fighting fascist Chicago in the Great Plains or whatever. Paradox is nuts if they don't do something fun like that. Especially now that they have more robust AI and peace making rules.
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Oct 30, 2015 20:12
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