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Taffer posted:Passive flowers are well optimized. In fact I'd say they're one of the best optimized TE's I've seen. But they exist in minecraft, and anything that requires a tick is going to get it, and when you go beyond a couple hundred it's going to start lagging, no matter what the TE is or how well optimized it is. One thing I'd like to see is the MFR's mining laser have the option of combining 9 laser drills in a crafting grid gives you 1 super laser drill, takes 9 times the energy and makes ore 9 times faster(either by speeding up ore generation or making multiple blocks spawn at the same time) and same again for pre-chargers to super pre-chargers.) Then 9 super laser drills into 1 ultra drill. (for 81 ore per time, 81 times the energy requirement) You couldn't power them via redstone cables of course, maybe direct Tess to Tess would work. In other news, I managed to get a 64x64 Big Reactor to work. 1800 fuel rods. It makes 1.4 million RF/t at peak but then it is only 6 blocks high. Things get....weird if I try to make it full height. (64x64x100)
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Nov 7, 2015 19:56
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Taffer posted:Passive flowers are well optimized. In fact I'd say they're one of the best optimized TE's I've seen. But they exist in minecraft, and anything that requires a tick is going to get it, and when you go beyond a couple hundred it's going to start lagging, no matter what the TE is or how well optimized it is. If they were well optimized, then this would not be a problem. So 1 flower makes x amount of lag. 100 flowers makes x*100 amount of lag. If you can't reduce the individual lag per unit any further, then the only other solution is to find a way to make each tick treat larger groups of flowers as an aggregated total. Since you will already have that group defined by the mana spreader collecting the mana, and you have the group of mana spreaders defined by the mana pool then you already have a target. The problem is that now you have to reverse engineer a way to make it so that as the volume of passive flowers increase, the code understands which corners to cut in order to keep all of the unnecessary calculations from bogging down the server.
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Nov 7, 2015 20:44
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EricFate posted:If they were well optimized, then this would not be a problem. You should make a mod because you just solved all the performance issues with modded minecraft!
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Nov 7, 2015 20:50
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EricFate posted:If they were well optimized, then this would not be a problem. Treating dayblooms/nightshades as a multiblock structure WOULD help. However, when you have a thousand of them, you're also going to have a hundred mana spreaders, which are way laggier. Well, they were laggy last time I heard someone check them on OPIS. What concerns me more is that apparently Vaskii thinks using hydroangeas is bad too? Despite them being much much more efficient than dayblooms?
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Nov 7, 2015 21:18
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McFrugal posted:Treating dayblooms/nightshades as a multiblock structure WOULD help. However, when you have a thousand of them, you're also going to have a hundred mana spreaders, which are way laggier. Well, they were laggy last time I heard someone check them on OPIS. They check for rain, which is a similar type of performance hit due to needing to check every tick for whether it's raining or not. (I think.)
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Nov 7, 2015 21:31
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Big Lasers Combine mining lasers into a 3x3 multiblock that not only blasts down a 3x3 beam of death, it will also melt near everything except bedrock so you don't need to dig a shaft. The larger laser base allows for more power cables to hook into the thing. Bottom layer is a dyed glass lens of whatever focus you want, changes the color of the beam. Perhaps a Laser Precharger Aggregator, that takes precharge lasers from 4 directions and directs them down to either other aggregators or the top of the Big Laser to boost its power. Big Flowers Proportionally more effective than an equal amount of flowers, new meta flowers/plants around them modify the effectiveness/stats of these plants. A creeping vine new plant can create nodes that act like mana spreaders, but collects mana from these nodes to a central flower. Another flower to distribute from a central plant to various nodes. Hopefully is less laggy than spreaders.
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Nov 7, 2015 21:50
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Blind Duke posted:Big Lasers  BUT THEN IT'S NOT lovely ENOUGH FOR MY VISIONI WANT THE GAME TO PUNISH PEOPLE Seriously, I hope most of these modders never go into actual game design.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:17
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Blind Duke posted:Big Lasers Hell if that was ever a thing I'd strap it to a redstone mover and have it loom over the world carving my initials.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:20
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Do you know about this little trick for maintaining levels of craftable items without a bank of level emitters we're talking about? Khorne posted:set the number of things you want it to hold in the interface's interface and it will request those from the network until it holds the desired amount. This requires a crafting card if you want the item to be crafted in the network. You can then attach a storage bus to the interface and it will treat the interface as a chest and provide its contents to your network.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:34
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StealthArcher posted:
I feel like every time a modder makes a change that someone doesn't like, they just call it MUH VISION instead of actually discussing why they think it's a bad change. I think if Vazkii had left off most of the schpeel about why she was changing it, it would be fine. Discussing whether Vazkii is a tool or not for the change is really unproductive and stupid. Talk about the change itself and why it is or isn't good design. I think the change is fine because passive spam is dumb+bad and kills servers, and leaving it as a config option means that server owners get to deal with sperglords raging at them for turning on passive decay. I think the decay time should be longer because ~20 minutes of operation is pretty gimped, but decay itself isn't a huge deal, partly because endoflames aren't hard to power and are dozens of times better. People are also welcome to disagree with me 
Magres fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 23:02
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What's the highest fuel reactivity possible with the Big Reactors, 850%? [edit] Best I can do is 832% while doing 442,857 rf/t with a fuel usage of 0.0015mB/t Only about 18 blocks high I think? Ak Gara fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 23:37
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Sage Grimm posted:Hell if that was ever a thing I'd strap it to a redstone mover and have it loom over the world carving my initials. There's a digging tool in I think EE? that does this, it's a lense of some kind. That + an activator + a mover and you're in business.
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Nov 8, 2015 00:02
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regrowth i'm very proud of my cake making device even if i have to manually feed it wheat and sugar cane
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Nov 8, 2015 01:38
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is that it on the left? using that long line of droppers and crafty crate thing? How far are you in regrowth? I'm a bit burned out on it because I feel like I'm not progressing anymore. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 01:56
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Bhodi posted:is that it on the left? using that long line of droppers and crafty crate thing? yeah, it's more or less a big line of corporea funnels using analog redstone signals to craft, broken up a bit to isolate the parts that are craft-on-demand using corporea interceptors and retainers i'm pretty far along, i'm pretty sure i have all the seeds made, i've unlocked three thaumcraft quests, the new mekanism quests, but there's still a crapload locked that i am not sure i can do yet i'm gonna have to crossbreed those loving vanilla plants eventually 
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Nov 8, 2015 02:03
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Regrowth has thaumcraft. You should consider using golems for your farms, plus they can be used to move the wheat and sugar.
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Nov 8, 2015 02:05
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Demiurge4 posted:Regrowth has thaumcraft. You should consider using golems for your farms, plus they can be used to move the wheat and sugar. corporea means i don't have to move anything, but yeah i might have to bite the bullet and do thaumcraft research i think forestry works too but lol forestry
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Nov 8, 2015 02:11
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Golems are super simple though. I never got far into regrowth but all you'll need for full functionality is a wooden golem, basic infusion stuff and alchemy for the harvesting core. Might need the hoe of growth too.
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Nov 8, 2015 02:14
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I believe in the current version of regrowth, golems break the sticks instead of just harvesting. You can manually upgrade the mod, I guess.
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Nov 8, 2015 02:29
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Has anyone tried using HQM's JSON load stuff yet? I had a hankering to try and add Botania and the HQM quests from the mod of the month pack into BFSR just to see if it would work. If I try and load any of the Botania pages in I get a "Failed to Load" message but no stack trace or similar to tell me what is going wrong. It could well be issues with references to other pages but I don't know how to go about fixing it without a decent error. If I export and then try and reload the Basic Minecraft page from BFSR I get a Stack Overflow error and minecraft will crash next time I use the book.
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Nov 8, 2015 02:35
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Bhodi posted:Another big reason not mentioned about people sticking with lower level mana generator flowers is that by deliberately omitting any amount of mana, there's no way to know how much better one flower is from another. This pretty much sums up my experience in mana gen to date. People would argue that knowing hard figures for each flower means that once the most efficient setup (in terms of effort/reward) has been found out, that's all people will do. Not exactly an unfair point, but without any indication of just how much each flower makes there's no real drive to go beyond. My fiancee (who's played more into Botania than I have) basically just uses farms of endoflames and automates it with a dropper system.
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Nov 8, 2015 03:54
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One of the biggest problems with botania is that most of the mana-generating flowers are just awful when fed manually and a gigantic pain in the rear end to automate. Like, who is going to make a cake factory for mana generation? The bottleneck is eggs so you need like 50 chickens, which causes lag. Who is going to set up a gigantic rainbow sheep farm to feed the wool flower? Again, lag. Not to mention you have to figure out a way to get it to drop the order in exactly the right sequence. The munchdew is PROBABLY possible to automate without AE2 but gently caress doing that. What's left? The food-eating one? Oh hey there's also a stupid restriction when automating that, because it eats food even when it's full. The thermalily? Actually INFERIOR TO ENDOFLAMES when both are automated, overall. I'm not sure the thermalily can be automated anyway without outside mods. Similarly, the Entropinnyum is probably impossible to automate without other mods, and even when it IS, it's either going to cost a lot of RF to spawn the needed creepers, or some kind of magic mod that can do it for free. Or some way of making TNT without killing creepers for the gunpowder. People use passive flowers and endoflames almost exclusively, and that's not because it's the easiest path. It's because the other paths are loving RIDICULOUS. Vaskii wants people to jump through interestingly-shaped hoops to use anything other than the most basic of flowers which is... you know, interesting... but I honestly do not believe the results for doing so are worth it. I will most likely only ever use endoflames now, and so will 90% of other botania players.
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Nov 8, 2015 04:51
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McFrugal posted:People use passive flowers and endoflames almost exclusively, and that's not because it's the easiest path. It's because the other paths are loving RIDICULOUS. Vaskii wants people to jump through interestingly-shaped hoops to use anything other than the most basic of flowers which is... you know, interesting... but I honestly do not believe the results for doing so are worth it. I will most likely only ever use endoflames now, and so will 90% of other botania players. I'm pretty much at this point now after playing around this morning (and all night thanks to railworks going on next to my block). Feels like the majority of the flowers just poo poo all over any kind of effort/reward ratio. It's all about convoluted setups, manufacturing chains and a bunch of poo poo that needs more setup, causes more lag and gives too little return to be worth it. Certainly it's not on the scale that 1000+ flowers would cause but still, my 40 Endoflames meet my needs easily.
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Nov 8, 2015 05:32
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The stuff about multiblocks, condensed flowers, etc. sounds really fun and makes me wish Big Trees/Big Plants/Big Flowers mods actually got made because many modders get so hung up on precision infrastructure or the "one right way" to progress through their tech it really hinders what could be a much more enjoyable experience. I like Botania's effects and methods a lot but I agree that keeping actual numbers invisible goes a long way to adding to the confusion, and there's very little indication of how much mana is actually generating from any given plant VS another. Maybe if people could see side-by-side numbers, to realize just how bad dayblooms really are, even these stubborn folks would move on from them. Maybe that would solve the problem of armies of passive flowers, not this forced withering. Magres posted:I feel like every time a modder makes a change that someone doesn't like, they just call it MUH VISION instead of actually discussing why they think it's a bad change. The whole point is that removing options because some people can't help themselves is a dumb idea. Options in Minecraft and its mods shouldn't be trimmed down because you're worried about people playing it wrong. That, to me, is the perfect example of a modder's "vision" interfering with how people actually enjoy the game. It's like a person who argues that quicksaving should be removed from PC games for everyone because they personally can't stop obsessively quicksaving. Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 06:48
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door.jar posted:Has anyone tried using HQM's JSON load stuff yet? I had a hankering to try and add Botania and the HQM quests from the mod of the month pack into BFSR just to see if it would work. I haven't even played with it yet, but I can say that when I was going to open it up, I was going to see if I could even change a single character first without it making GBS threads its pants. I'd then work up from there. Fortunately, they did just recently open up the source so I expect we can start to pull it out of a ditch, but I did not anticipate trying until the holidays. I figured I would have to run it through a debugger and see what happened when I tried nontrivial stuff. BTW I would be happy if somebody wanted to add some stuff into BFSR. It has been sitting dormant online, but I have been locally making fixes as I hear problems. I was intending to do a new release after I hit a mental finish line with Blightfall. It has just been a good place to practice messing around with AE2, and it's the first time I've played with Thaumcraft and Botania. I think I know enough about both to prepare reasonable guides, but I could particularly use more help with Botania.
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Nov 8, 2015 07:18
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i want a botania-like tree mod independent of anything happening with botania, because trees are cool and it legit would be a way to cut down on lag as long as they're not, like, redwood-sized.
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Nov 8, 2015 07:20
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It legitimately annoys me that no redwood in Minecraft actually looks like a Redwood at all.
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Nov 8, 2015 07:28
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Vib Rib posted:The stuff about multiblocks, condensed flowers, etc. sounds really fun and makes me wish Big Trees/Big Plants/Big Flowers mods actually got made because many modders get so hung up on precision infrastructure or the "one right way" to progress through their tech it really hinders what could be a much more enjoyable experience. As far as server owners go I think it saves them some headaches to not even have it as an option - if it's an option then everyone who likes spamming passives is going to piss and moan about passive decay being turned on. As far as the muh vision stuff, I'm generally fine with mod creators having some sort of vision they want to pursue. Not having an idea of what you want people to get out of your mod usually means your mod will lack direction and be kind of lovely. Vazkii's direction for Botania is that it's a mod about making whacky Rube Goldberg contraptions out of a bunch of small stepping stone parts that assemble into a greater whole. It's not a mod for everyone (hell, it's not a mod for me - I'm trash at making those big, complex gizmos), and that's okay. I don't think enforcing passive decay is horribly unreasonable because it's not a way of enforcing tedious bullshit on the player before they have suffered enough to unlock the fun of the mod, unlike a lot of the mod vision enforcement poo poo like Railcraft, Forestry, and GregTech do. Botania's gating is usually more about figuring out how to make a new toy work than it is about heaping enough resources onto the pile before you can use something new. Basically I'd much rather a mod gate things behind creativity and design than a mod gate things behind enormous piles of rare resources, and I'm fine with Vazkii wanting to push the player towards the former rather than the latter. I think Botania has a couple really dumb design decisions (primarily the complete lack of any kind of numerical information, even in general terms, and the dedication to a lack of GUIs) that I would personally change, but I think passive decay isn't a bad mechanic and I feel like most of the objections I've seen to it had more to do with Vazkii's sprawling screed about MUH VISION rather than with the change itself.
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Nov 8, 2015 07:30
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Glory of Arioch posted:They check for rain, which is a similar type of performance hit due to needing to check every tick for whether it's raining or not. (I think.) They rapidly eat water blocks, causing frequent liquid movement checks which eat a fair amount of performance.
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Nov 8, 2015 07:38
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Magres posted:As far as server owners go I think it saves them some headaches to not even have it as an option - if it's an option then everyone who likes spamming passives is going to piss and moan about passive decay being turned on. Running a server basically means not giving in to every whiny person who asks to have something tweaked or changed in a certain way. People who've complained on my server over the years always get the simple response of "Deal with it" unless they can present a compelling case as to why it's a good change and how it'd be of a benefit (rather than just them being whiny). If people don't like how I run my server, they can play on their own or another. I will admit, I love setting up nice big Rube Goldberg like contraptions myself, and usually I'll do this to see just how far I can scale a proof of concept I've tried out. The problem is when you have half a dozen to a dozen people on a server who are all doing this. Also, the more complicated a setup, the more likely that it will in some way poo poo itself and cause craptons of server lag. I still have flashbacks of running a server back in the days of 1.2.5 and players doing lovely BC pipe setups that pissed items everywhere because they didn't build enough storage for their 64x64 quarry. Tsubasa2004 posted:They rapidly eat water blocks, causing frequent liquid movement checks which eat a fair amount of performance. Not anymore, if you have water in at least a 2x2 block they won't consume any. I'm pretty sure they count as passives now.
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Nov 8, 2015 07:40
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Magres posted:As far as server owners go I think it saves them some headaches to not even have it as an option - if it's an option then everyone who likes spamming passives is going to piss and moan about passive decay being turned on. Not trying to pick on you, Magres. I just think that this line of thinking about making the change for the server owners is stupid. If someone operating a server doesn't know to change an option in a config file, they probably ought not to be operating a server.
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Nov 8, 2015 08:05
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Magres posted:As far as server owners go I think it saves them some headaches to not even have it as an option - if it's an option then everyone who likes spamming passives is going to piss and moan about passive decay being turned on. I'm being hyperbolic of course, but "someone might complain to a server owner about it" seems a really weak reason to force something like this. This logic has gotten stretched so thin we're talking about making a mod more rigid and reducing options because of some really specific and unlikely what-ifs that could be much better handled in so many other ways.
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Nov 8, 2015 08:41
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Tsubasa2004 posted:They rapidly eat water blocks, causing frequent liquid movement checks which eat a fair amount of performance. As said already, if they detect an infinite source of water they stop actually consuming the water. Also, dayblooms check for rain (they shut off during rain), so that earlier complaint about hydroangeas is irrelevant. The fact is, hydros produce over 10x the mana as dayblooms, do so all day and night, and double their mana production during rain. They also take up like 10x the space, require a bit more effort to set up, and are actually LESS laggy than dayblooms once they stop drinking water, because they don't check the day/night cycle, nor do they check for clear line of sight to the sun. Heck, that's probably the main reason why dayblooms are laggy. They constantly check for line of sight to the sun. I bet nightshades are also a lot better than dayblooms, because they don't care about being underground. Hydros do not kill servers. Yet, they were lumped in with the lovely intro flowers, because ??? Endoflames produce 3x the mana as hydroangeas. I wonder, are three hydroangeas laggier than a single endoflame? Remember, endoflames constantly check around them for dropped burnables. What about the added lag of the tree farm? Are endoflames actually better for a server than hydroangeas? The tendency is to just assume less flowers means less lag, but I don't think that's a safe assumption here. McFrugal fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 08:43
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Fair, to all of you. The server owner thing was a bad argument then! (also vibur you're not pickin on me at all, I knew I was basically poking the beehive with this  )
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Nov 8, 2015 09:15
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If it was me, I would have it detect if there are a certain amount in a 3x3 chunk, and then once it hits that amount some of the passives die off until it goes below that amount. Just write it in that dayblooms and hydroangias in too large amounts too close to each other's root systems get too tangled, and they start to die off until they go under the amount. That way, you don't get fields of dayblooms or hydroangia towers, but you can still plop 16 dayblooms down for some easy no thought mana gen.
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Nov 8, 2015 09:29
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I have a lot of problems with botania for the reasons mentioned, like never going past endoflames or gourmalillies because the effort required is too dumb - I once spent a TON of time and effort building a big redstone-and-botania only muchdew tree farm in midgame regrowth only to find out it was mana negative because agricarnations are incapable of growing saplings fast enough to fuel munchdews no matter how much you stack them, and being bad at automating even producing charcoal for endoflames without other mods (which aren't always available - see : regrowth). However, I don't necessarily agree with the idea that once you add something to your mod that you think is a terrible idea that's ruining the gameplay of your mod that you aren't allowed to ever remove it without MUH VISION. I mean imagine a more extreme version of this to make a point - an easy to make flower that gives near-infinite mana passively with zero effort required, pretty much a creative flower, and you had it as a baseline feature in an early version. Obviously you remove it once you come up with a better system, yeah? If you don't remove it, you just make it creative only - botania has creative mana pools so that's not needed here. The whole point of botania is to give tools to make rube-goldberg contraptions to generate power and I can understand some frustration from Vazkii if nobody ever touches anything but the first part. I mean sure, removing dayblooms seems a bit knee jerk but they sucked anyway. I'd prefer some more convenient tools/data to make automating the various generator flowers easier, because making any of these mana generators is honestly mostly just too frustrating without very specific other mods.
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Nov 8, 2015 09:37
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Magres posted:Fair, to all of you. The server owner thing was a bad argument then! Wolpertinger posted:The whole point of botania is to give tools to make rube-goldberg contraptions to generate power Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 10:04
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Vib Rib posted:I think you (and others) on the right track about people not wanting to move on from passive gen sometimes, but as has been mentioned, I think the real problem here is actually with the mod's other mana-generating options themselves, not with the passives. It's been brought up but it really is incredible how few options there are that don't involve super-complex setups or completely-manual control. It's weird to me that thermalilies generate more mana than the TNT-eaters, or that leaves are so productive, or that the color-wheel wool-consumer is basically never worth it even if you have the dyes on hand. Everything is so restricted with weird "gotchas" like the gourmalily eating even when full, or so complex to manage like the wool-cycler or the cake-eater, that it's no wonder so many people are flocking to the simpler options. That's a good point, and I think that if the documentation for Botania, at the very least, organized flowers into tiers of roughly how much mana generation you should expect from them (even without strict numbers, you could measure them in terms of "dozens of Dayblooms" to "hundreds of Dayblooms" worth of mana) that would make it blatantly obvious that you should move on from passive generation rather quickly - you can do semi-automated Gourmalilly and Endoflame setups relatively easily (the hovering hourglass really solves the Gourmalilly's problems), and it's not super obvious that you should because the mod just says "uh, yeah, Dayblooms generate some amount of mana, and Endoflames generate an amount that is more than that!" when really it needs to tell you the fact that an Endoflame, when fueled round the clock, spits out as much mana as almost 40 Dayblooms. Like the only reason I ever moved on from Hydroangea spam was because I read the FTB wiki "numbers of botania" article and found out that I could make a compact set of a dozen or so Endoflames that would match the giant sprawling ~30 Hydrongeas setup I had previously. I legitimately didn't know that I was meant to be moving on to better flowers because Vazkii hides that info from you, and it's moronic. Also, given how much variety in how much the effort the mod involves from flower to flower, there's really no clear answer as to what flower is best, even if you have hard numbers. Especially because what other mods you have installed drastically changes how much effort each method is.
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Nov 8, 2015 10:31
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I guess I don't really get the insistence on removing numbers from Botania. The "no UI" thing I really enjoy because it feels natural, intuitive, and involved. But how hard is it really to like, take a piece of chalk and make increments on the mana pool or something? You could rank flowers in "daybloom minutes" of mana generated: how long a single daybloom, in full daylight, would take to generate as much mana as that plant in one operation. Or just flip it and show the bottom line of how many dayblooms you'd need to match the active power.
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Nov 8, 2015 10:59
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Gaia Guardian battle music is loving horrible, fortunately I found the fork of Botania people were talking about even if it only stopped that godawful combat music, it's worth it.
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Nov 8, 2015 11:55
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