RC aerial vehicles: because we don't have flying brooms

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ImplicitAssembler: Jan 24, 2013

A Yolo Wizard posted:

http://pulsedlight3d.com/blogs/cool-stuff/25137473-pixhawk-lidar-lite-setup-demo

Don't think that's what he meant. I think he's talking about LIDAR units for generating point clouds..the Lidar-lite is for measuring distance to the ground.

# ? Nov 7, 2015 07:45

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 12:49

porksmash: Sep 30, 2008

Yeah, but there are a lot of details missing that makes it hard to answer with any specifics. Do you have a LIDAR possibly picked out, plus know what hardware you need to run it? Knowing the weight of the payload is probably the most important. How long you need to fly in one go? If you need/prefer multicopters or airplanes? Do you want to fly it manually or program in a route and have it fly itself?

# ? Nov 7, 2015 08:00

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

I was ON THE SCENE of the MOST EXCITING NEWS STORY in my rural town with my Phantom 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfh3p_FTy28

Which I then crashed into the sinkhole after flying down into it at the request of the city engineer who wanted pictures of the broken water main. :v:

Luckily the fire department dragged it out for me and the only thing damaged was my pride.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 17:28

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

For a moment there I was worried it's going to be one of those Guatemal-style giant sinkholes, in which case you'd probably never see your Phantom again

I strapped my Yi to the done a couple of times already but the footage looks like rear end, relatively speaking. It's not the image quality really, I guess the stabilized gimbal is what makes it so nice and cinematic... Would a 2-axis one do the job? They're getting pretty affordable and I'm thinking it should be sufficient since there isn't that much yaw jerkiness going on, as far as I can tell.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 20:56

Elendil004: Mar 22, 2003; The prognosis
is not good.

mobby_6kl posted:

For a moment there I was worried it's going to be one of those Guatemal-style giant sinkholes, in which case you'd probably never see your Phantom again

I strapped my Yi to the done a couple of times already but the footage looks like rear end, relatively speaking. It's not the image quality really, I guess the stabilized gimbal is what makes it so nice and cinematic... Would a 2-axis one do the job? They're getting pretty affordable and I'm thinking it should be sufficient since there isn't that much yaw jerkiness going on, as far as I can tell.

No pics of the crash and recovery? For shame!

porksmash posted:

Yeah, but there are a lot of details missing that makes it hard to answer with any specifics. Do you have a LIDAR possibly picked out, plus know what hardware you need to run it? Knowing the weight of the payload is probably the most important. How long you need to fly in one go? If you need/prefer multicopters or airplanes? Do you want to fly it manually or program in a route and have it fly itself?

It was a question posed to me by a client, and I have to admit that outside the acronym, my understanding of LIDAR is about nil. No idea about what LIDAR unit would be useful, or the hardware/software. I'd prefer a multirotor since I am familiar with them, and the ability to do both manual and preprogrammed flight is key.

It would be an added bonus if I could mount a FLIR unit either alongside (or ideally in place of) for SAR and night stuff.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 23:22

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

Elendil004 posted:

No pics of the crash and recovery? For shame!

Well, here's the aftermath:

We've got some pretty red dirt down here. Also my video got on CNN for like ten seconds so :toot:

I guess.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 23:54

Elendil004: Mar 22, 2003; The prognosis
is not good.

overdesigned posted:

Well, here's the aftermath:

We've got some pretty red dirt down here. Also my video got on CNN for like ten seconds so I guess.

Now just wait for your form letter from the FSDO

# ? Nov 9, 2015 00:08

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

Didn't overfly any crowds, stayed within visual range of the operator, remained well below 400'AGL, had local LEO approval (well, I mean, he was standing next to me watching and asking for a copy of the pics), and I didn't monetize the footage.

Besides, I'm already medically grounded from flying right now so what are they gonna do, pull my license?

...it's the FAA so they'll probably try...

# ? Nov 9, 2015 01:11

ImplicitAssembler: Jan 24, 2013

overdesigned posted:

Didn't overfly any crowds, stayed within visual range of the operator, remained well below 400'AGL, had local LEO approval (well, I mean, he was standing next to me watching and asking for a copy of the pics), and I didn't monetize the footage.

Besides, I'm already medically grounded from flying right now so what are they gonna do, pull my license?

...it's the FAA so they'll probably try...

Your local LEO doesn't have authority over the airspace..that remains the domain of the FAA...and whether money changed hand is irrelevant.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 01:21

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Your local LEO doesn't have authority over the airspace..that remains the domain of the FAA...and whether money changed hand is irrelevant.

My understanding is that as it stands now, FAA doesn't own poo poo below 500'AGL unless the activity is commercial, and since I didn't get paid, it wasn't commercial.

It doesn't matter, I'm some rando with a drone who got twelve seconds of fame on CNN and will go back to being forgotten tomorrow.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 01:29

helno: Jun 19, 2003; hmm now were did I leave that plane

They argued in Trappys case that they have authority over all airspace right down to the ground.

Edit: Weekend progress http://imgur.com/Reh71LZ

helno fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Nov 9, 2015

# ? Nov 9, 2015 03:44

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

helno posted:

They argued in Trappys case that they have authority over all airspace right down to the ground.

He was under a paying contract to provide video services though, and I'm not getting paid. I'm sure the FAA could find a reason to hammer me but in the absence of actual well-defined laws I think I'm as safe as anyone that releases video publicly can get.

Also his case got dismissed, right?

# ? Nov 9, 2015 03:48

Elendil004: Mar 22, 2003; The prognosis
is not good.

overdesigned posted:

He was under a paying contract to provide video services though, and I'm not getting paid. I'm sure the FAA could find a reason to hammer me but in the absence of actual well-defined laws I think I'm as safe as anyone that releases video publicly can get.

Also his case got dismissed, right?

If there's even a whiff of you getting a value from it, you could maybe technically kinda be in violation. Trappy did end up settling but due to recklessness not commercialism.

It's a mess, and my comment was mostly tongue in cheek, but getting a form letter wouldn't surprise me.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 04:13

ImplicitAssembler: Jan 24, 2013

overdesigned posted:

My understanding is that as it stands now, FAA doesn't own poo poo below 500'AGL unless the activity is commercial, and since I didn't get paid, it wasn't commercial.

It doesn't matter, I'm some rando with a drone who got twelve seconds of fame on CNN and will go back to being forgotten tomorrow.

You were providing a service. Whether money got exchanged is irrelevant.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 09:16

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

You're famous now!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34763157

# ? Nov 9, 2015 11:48

Slash: Apr 7, 2011

I finished my build! :toot:

# ? Nov 9, 2015 11:55

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

ImplicitAssembler posted:

You were providing a service. Whether money got exchanged is irrelevant.

I eagerly await the FAA sending cease and desist letters to every private pilot who ever took their friend up for a ride for free :rolleyes:

# ? Nov 9, 2015 14:27

mashed: Jul 27, 2004

I doubt you are going to get hassled by the FAA given the amount of full on commercial activity that they haven't done anything about. Honestly the most likely way you would get noticed by them is some commercial operator seeing your video and reporting it.

Perhaps one day there will be a clear reasonable framework for people to follow rather than the garbage fire there is right now where getting a hot air balloon licence is the easiest way to certification in the USA.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 18:36

ImplicitAssembler: Jan 24, 2013

Elendil004 posted:

Anyone have any idea what it would take to haul a LIDAR unit into the air and do surveys?

Found the link finally:
http://www.phoenix-aerial.com/products/lidar-systems/scout-series/

So, the LIDAR unit itself is only only 830g, but with battery and control system, it comes up to 1.85kg.

The X-UAV Talon could just about haul that around, but you're probably better with something with ~2.5m+ wingspan.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 18:50

mashed: Jul 27, 2004

Don't lidar units need to be moved fairly slowly to get good results? I've only ever seen them being used on a tripod but in those cases it being as still as possible was what they were after.

A multirotor might be a better platform than fixed wing potentially.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 20:08

ImplicitAssembler: Jan 24, 2013

mashed_penguin posted:

Don't lidar units need to be moved fairly slowly to get good results? I've only ever seen them being used on a tripod but in those cases it being as still as possible was what they were after.

A multirotor might be a better platform than fixed wing potentially.

One datasheet showed up decent results at up 13-16m/s, which is about the same speed as traditional mapping, so no, not really.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 20:42

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

Or you could just notice that the Google cars have a LIDAR on the roof that apparently works fine at highway speeds, ~30m/s.

Granted that's a $70,000 unit with weight and power consumption way out of the range of a small UAV, but it shows that it's possible.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 22:11

porksmash: Sep 30, 2008

Reading the papers linked on the MIT autonomous airplane might give some insights into hardware and vehicle requirements. They're flying around 10m/s and the details they give are "a Hokuyo UTM-30LX laser rangefinder, a Microstrain 3DM-GX3-25 IMU, and a 1.6GHz Intel Atom base flight computer.", and from the video they are using a custom plane with a 2m wingspan.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 22:37

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Is rate mode usually always implemented as simple PID output added to the throttle? Doing some initial research, that seems to be the claim in the first two pages I ran into. In pseudocode this:

code:

loop()
{
    ...
    pid = PID(desiredRate - actualRate);
    frontMotors = throttle - pid;
    rearMotors = throttle + pid;
    ...
}

Which seems a little simplistic to me. As soon the target rate gets into reach, P and I will back off, in the hopes that rotational inertia would keep things going. Wouldn't it make more sense to handle this in a differential way, i.e. the PID accelerating and decelerating the propellers as needed by integrating the output into a multiplier? Kind of this:

code:

loop()
{
    ...
    throttleMod += PID(desiredRate - actualRate);
    frontMotors = throttle * (1 - throttleMod);
    rearMotors = throttle * (1 + throttleMod);
}

Like this the front and rear have a coefficient that gets modified whenever the error deviates from 0.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 22:45

porksmash: Sep 30, 2008

The PID loops don't operate on rate specifically. They are operating on the error in desired orientation vs actual orientation. The rate part is that the sticks on your TX are interpreted as the rate of change in the desired orientation. Each loop it reads the stick inputs, applies the changes from the sticks to the desired orientation, then calculates the error in angle between desired and actual orientation which the PID loop operates on.

Now, for the throttle, it takes the output of the PIDs for yaw, pitch, and roll (which is motor speed required to adjust the orientation of the vehicle to match the desired orientation) and adds the throttle input to that. There's probably something in there to reduce motor speed for one half and increase the motor speed on the other half (otherwise it would be impossible to control at full throttle) but I didn't search around for that.

refs: MultiWii source code here and here.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 23:22

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

poo poo, almost crashed my drone into a tree yesterday when I decided to connect to the onboard Yi camera with WiFi while it was airborne :v:

I shouldn't be surprised given the shared frequencies of course, but I really didn't expect to completely mess up the signal when it was so close, and also for it to actually cause weird movements instead of triggering the failsafe.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 13:59

Nerobro: Nov 4, 2005; Rider now with 100% more titanium!

After painting three multicopter airframes, I think I finally have the technique down. It's a technique involving acetone, razor blades, and at least four layers of paint.

But it's cheap! and looks really good in the end.

Here's how I do it.

1. Clean the edges of the airframe using acetone.
2. Paint a dry-ish coat of white paint on the edges of the airframe.
3. Re-coat white layers until coating is solid. Wait 20 minutes between coats.
4. Run razor blade around edges to break the excess paint on tops and bottoms of the frame from the paint on the edge.
5. Use razor to remove bulk white paint.
6. Use acetone to clean up white paint.
7. Apply color to edges of frame. Light, dry-ish coats until surfaces is a solid color. Wait 20 minutes between coats.
8. Run razor blade around edges to break the excess paint on tops and bottoms of the frame from the paint on the edge.
9. use razor to remove bulk color paint.
10. use acetone to clean up straggling paint.

This ends up taking two evenings.

I've got lots of pictures of the process, and plan on doing a video of it. I know it sounds dumb.. but every other bit of advice on how to paint multi-rotor airframes is awful, and doesn't cover good painting techniques. And they seem to focus on nail polish.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 16:26

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

The FAA called me. They're here to help!

He said that apparently it doesn't matter if I wasn't using the drone with commercial intent. He said that unless I'm operating it at a designated model airplane field under the safety rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, the drone qualifies as an full-fledged aircraft and the FAA can regulate it as such, and the current regulations say you can't operate any aircraft below 500'AGL, UAS or no.

He's mailing me "educational materials" and that's the end of the matter, legally.

Don't buy drones, I guess.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 18:28

deong: Jun 13, 2001; I'll see you in heck!

Are you legally able to fly drones in your own house? Or still FAA regulated?

# ? Nov 10, 2015 18:43

Mina: Dec 14, 2005; HONK HONK HONK HONK HONK HONK HONK HONK

This FAA bullshit is the biggest part of why I haven't flown my drones in months, after spending thousands on building them (the other reason is that Portland loving sucks for finding places to fly). I have made exactly two flights with my FPV quad before putting it into storage. To me, there is no point in pursuing this hobby until the FAA pulls their head out of their collective rear end and releases sensible rules for them. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 18:53

bring back old gbs: Feb 28, 2007; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Krittick posted:

This FAA bullshit is the biggest part of why I haven't flown my drones in months, after spending thousands on building them (the other reason is that Portland loving sucks for finding places to fly). I have made exactly two flights with my FPV quad before putting it into storage. To me, there is no point in pursuing this hobby until the FAA pulls their head out of their collective rear end and releases sensible rules for them. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Come up to Canada where it isn't terribly bad yet. I went to my local park to fly my printed deadcat and I met a guy there flying his ZMR250. He let me try on his fatsharks, they're pretty drat slick.

If I wanted to go 5.8Ghz diversity, would I get a simple Boscam like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Boscam-FR632-....8ghz+diversity

And an antenna setup like these:
http://www.amazon.com/Andoer-Rotati...=5.8ghz+antenna

Or would I want to replace that flat panel one with a helical? Or helical and flat panel but no circular polarized? All my Tx antennas are RHCP I believe.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 19:16

mashed: Jul 27, 2004

overdesigned posted:

He said that unless I'm operating it at a designated model airplane field under the safety rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, the drone qualifies as an full-fledged aircraft and the FAA can regulate it as such, and the current regulations say you can't operate any aircraft below 500'AGL, UAS or no.

I'm not in America but this seems like its totally wrong. There is no requirement to fly at a designated model airplane field afiak.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 19:17

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

porksmash posted:

The PID loops don't operate on rate specifically. They are operating on the error in desired orientation vs actual orientation.

Is that universal or just one way of doing it? From what I read, IMUs love to drift, using rotational rates is more reliable on the long run. Then again, the MPU6050 does already sensor fusion on its own.

quote:

refs: MultiWii source code here and here.

Be lookin' at dis.

--edit: Uh, the inner PID loop, also used for acro, in the source file is actually PIDs on axis rates. The beginning of the section you refer calculate rates, depending on flight mode, which are then fed into rate operated PIDs further down.

Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 10, 2015

# ? Nov 10, 2015 19:18

CrazyLittle: Sep 11, 2001; Clapping Larry

mashed_penguin posted:

I'm not in America but this seems like its totally wrong. There is no requirement to fly at a designated model airplane field afiak.

Also codifying a private org (AMA) into law seems like a pretty huge loving oversight.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 20:45

helno: Jun 19, 2003; hmm now were did I leave that plane

overdesigned posted:

The FAA called me. They're here to help!

He said that apparently it doesn't matter if I wasn't using the drone with commercial intent. He said that unless I'm operating it at a designated model airplane field under the safety rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, the drone qualifies as an full-fledged aircraft and the FAA can regulate it as such, and the current regulations say you can't operate any aircraft below 500'AGL, UAS or no.

He's mailing me "educational materials" and that's the end of the matter, legally.

Don't buy drones, I guess.

The leaps in the logic they use for stuff like this are ridiculous.

Ac 97 is voluntary and does say you have to fly at a designated field. And outside of built up areas even full size aircraft are not required to stay above 500 feet.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 20:47

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Eh, at least it's completely forbidden, instead of some asstastic regulation a la Belgium (well, it's not finalized yet). Here they only want to allow you to fly within your own backyard under 10 meters of altitude. Excludes pretty much anything but a Hubsan in sunny weather and no wind. Unless you have a commercial license, of which I don't know what hoops you need to hop through (considering it's Belgium, it's probably some batshit insane requirements), allowing you to operate up to 90m and only on areas you have a) retrieved permission of the owner, and b) acquired a take-off permit from the municipality.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 20:56

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

A family friend in the FAA that knows the UAS program director disagrees with the particular FSDO's ruling but why poke a hornet's nest? I got off without any lasting damage. They can't publish the new rules fast enough.

Until then my poo poo is staying in storage.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 21:41

fordan: Mar 9, 2009; Clue: Zero

CrazyLittle posted:

Also codifying a private org (AMA) into law seems like a pretty huge loving oversight.

That wasn't actually done by the FAA. It was done by Congress directly.

FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 posted:

SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
(a) IN GENERAL.�Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if�
(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;
(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;
(3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;
(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and
(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

overdesigned posted:

The FAA called me. They're here to help!

He said that apparently it doesn't matter if I wasn't using the drone with commercial intent. He said that unless I'm operating it at a designated model airplane field under the safety rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, the drone qualifies as an full-fledged aircraft and the FAA can regulate it as such, and the current regulations say you can't operate any aircraft below 500'AGL, UAS or no.

He's mailing me "educational materials" and that's the end of the matter, legally.

Don't buy drones, I guess.

This is such a terrible interpretation by the Inspector (I assume it was a FSDO inspector). Personally I'd wait to get the educational materials and the cover letter or Letter of Investigation that will probably come with it telling you what he thinks you did wrong in writing and send a copy to the AMA and contact the FSDO and complain.

# ? Nov 10, 2015 23:12

CrazyLittle: Sep 11, 2001; Clapping Larry

fordan posted:

That wasn't actually done by the FAA. It was done by Congress directly.

"A nationwide community-based org" is vague enough to be anything. The assumption that we must follow specifically the AMA is where I draw the line.

# ? Nov 11, 2015 00:58

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 12:49

overdesigned: Apr 10, 2003; We are compassion...; Lipstick Apathy

CrazyLittle posted:

"A nationwide community-based org" is vague enough to be anything. The assumption that we must follow specifically the AMA is where I draw the line.

Quick, name another nationwide community based organization specializing in remote control aircraft.

# ? Nov 11, 2015 01:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > RC aerial vehicles: because we don't have flying brooms

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