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Chief Savage Man posted:Should they throw their children or ineffective beta testers into a sinkhole to appease Satan? recruit beta testers from the pdox forums, most of them will probably be man children any way so its two for one
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Nov 14, 2015 06:29
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I haven't read the Supply DD enough to really think it over, but the fact that it's pissing off a ton of PDX forum regulars tells me it's probably a good design.
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Nov 14, 2015 07:04
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It looks great. Holding onto ports and preventing them from being taken looks like its essential to maintaining fortress Europe.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:58
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Gort posted:Just being able to point at a province and instantly find out how many divisions you can put there without problems will put this game massive ahead of HoI3. Another outlier that I wonder about is Germany at war start in 39, when it loses access to importing oil and haven't yet acquired oil production of its own (Romania). Probably will have a few synthetic factories, but a little odd to not be able to produce tanks/planes/ships suddenly?
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Nov 14, 2015 09:31
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:I haven't read the Supply DD enough to really think it over, but the fact that it's pissing off a ton of PDX forum regulars tells me it's probably a good design. This was my immediate reaction as well.
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Nov 14, 2015 09:51
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John Charity Spring posted:One thing I wasn't clear on from the diary - will the new supply system allow for things like starvation of the UK or the Japanese home islands through convoy raiding? yes very much so. stuff doesnt teleport to London. 420 Gank Mid posted:
yeah its part of our better debug tools for devs and modders. will be possible to enable in released version for modders. Also you guys havent even met Sergeant Console, the cheating beagle yet  Pimpmust posted:Another outlier that I wonder about is Germany at war start in 39, when it loses access to importing oil and haven't yet acquired oil production of its own (Romania). Probably will have a few synthetic factories, but a little odd to not be able to produce tanks/planes/ships suddenly? you can still produce some, but at a very reduced rate. its not a 100% cutoff.
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Nov 14, 2015 13:22
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podcat posted:yeah, the swiss are still OP on the defensive. If your game is realistic Helbards will be the key to victory. I think I'll actually have to try a Switzerland game just to see what silly things you can do. I am sure that's gonna be important for the Beta!
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Nov 14, 2015 13:30
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podcat posted:yes very much so. stuff doesnt teleport to London. Yeah, but there isn't a food resource that London needs, is there? Also, London actually produces stuff, and some stuff doesn't require particular supplies, does it? So if the UK lost all its convoys it wouldn't be able to make tanks or planes or anything advanced like that, but they could still make infantry equipment, couldn't they? I guess you could handle it by event (if the UK or Japan's merchant navy drops below a certain size they take penalties) but the current supply system doesn't appear to allow for starving Japan or the UK into submission.
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Nov 14, 2015 23:18
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I don't think there're resources that feed into consumer goods any more (Correct me if I'm wrong), which is the best way to simulate starving out a country. It was technically possible to do with Japan in DH, but with stockpiles it was incredibly difficult. Isn't portraying this still illegal in Germany, though?
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Nov 14, 2015 23:37
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Kavak posted:I don't think there're resources that feed into consumer goods any more (Correct me if I'm wrong), which is the best way to simulate starving out a country. It was technically possible to do with Japan in DH, but with stockpiles it was incredibly difficult. Isn't portraying this still illegal in Germany, though?
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Nov 14, 2015 23:53
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[[--|-----------]] 24.5% of United Kingdom suffered
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Nov 14, 2015 23:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Just make the German flavor text say something about the enemy being deprived of good beer, causing them to lose the will to fight. Ireland's hours away, though  I maintain that it was the depletion of the coffee supplies of Germany and her allies that cost them both World Wars. I would've unconditionally surrendered the moment the first cup of ersatz was served.
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Nov 14, 2015 23:59
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The UK had contingencies in place to secure the tea supply during and after WW3, including if it went nuclear. Not that they'd have worked but you know. Also all our tanks are equipped with a BV to make a brew.  So it would be 100% reasonable if shortages in supplies like tea, coffee, and beer, caused massive morale and stability problems.
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Nov 15, 2015 01:21
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Out of curiosity, are supplies still routed from a country's capital? Maybe I missed it, but if I'm the USA and Britain is encircled, can I send supplies to British troops in Africa or India or anywhere else if we're allied?
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Nov 15, 2015 04:10
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Gort posted:Yeah, but there isn't a food resource that London needs, is there? Food supply wouldn't have been the issue. http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2013/sep/24/fighting-fit-britain-second-world-war quote:In December 1939, Britain had been at war with Germany for three months. U-boat attacks threatened incoming food shipments. And, armed with bicycles and walking boots, a group of medical researchers headed to the Lake District to conduct a secret study: if Britain was totally cut off from food imports, would starvation hand victory to Germany?
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Nov 15, 2015 11:07
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GO gently caress YOURSELF posted:Out of curiosity, are supplies still routed from a country's capital? Maybe I missed it, but if I'm the USA and Britain is encircled, can I send supplies to British troops in Africa or India or anywhere else if we're allied? The dev diary says that if the capital is cut off supply is traced from the next best area.
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Nov 15, 2015 11:25
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Riso posted:Food supply wouldn't have been the issue. That reads so weird to me. "After spending millions on research at a secluded lake cabin, we have concluded that scurvy and starvation won't make it harder for housewives to cook inventively with limited ingredients!" 
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Nov 15, 2015 12:07
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yeah it's phrased really badly. writer and editor should be ashamed imho
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Nov 15, 2015 12:12
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Editor has gone with poor editing has happened to them.
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Nov 15, 2015 13:45
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Kavak posted:Isn't portraying this still illegal in Germany, though? It's not.
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Nov 15, 2015 13:50
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There's the concept, even modern, that the UK can't feed itself - from memory I believe today the UK produces around 70%, or has the potential to feed 70% of its own population. It's just that a lot of land management is wasteful ranging from actual incompetence to herds of sheep or whatever when actual crops would feed more people - and that there are a lot of export or non staple crops of course. Not that it wasn't a factor as in the 1930's the UK only produced 30% of its own food, obviously, but Paradox games shouldn't be going out of their way to model some dissent about Farmer Jim's Wife switching from rhubard to corn or whatever whilst Daisy plants some cabbages in her garden, and Cecilia really doesn't agree, the war effort demands carrots! Events about it with effects are great, but its questionable whether its a long term thing that produces fun™. The real problem for the modern age at least is that pretty much most Western economies, particularly when it comes to food, are wasteful in general, and operate on a 24 hour logistical cycle, and if that is interrupted for any reason, particularly suddenly, the entire distribution network would collapse and there'd be farms and warehouses full of food but empty super markets - and the transition to getting everything working amidst chaos and riots and what have you is what causes starvation and thus societal breakdown. So the irony is everyone worried about the apocalypse is effectively what would start that cycle. Pray we don't run out of oil or have a sudden shock to the supply system anytime soon. I apologize,. I may of read a book about the latter. Obviously simplified and full of holes for resident thread experts to fix, my sweet knights of lore. Westminster System fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 14:50
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Westminster System posted:There's the concept, even modern, that the UK can't feed itself - from memory I believe today the UK produces around 70%, or has the potential to feed 70% of its own population. It's just that a lot of land management is wasteful ranging from actual incompetence to herds of sheep or whatever when actual crops would feed more people - and that there are a lot of export or non staple crops of course. Not that it wasn't a factor as in the 1930's the UK only produced 30% of its own food, obviously, but Paradox games shouldn't be going out of their way to model some dissent about Farmer Jim's Wife switching from rhubard to corn or whatever whilst Daisy plants some cabbages in her garden, and Cecilia really doesn't agree, the war effort demands carrots! Events about it with effects are great, but its questionable whether its a long term thing that produces fun™. Food security has been a huge priority for all European governments since WW2 and there's a ton of pre-planning gone into emergencies. It's also why the UK could supply 70% of its own food supply today if it got cut off. Cities will of course be the hardest hit.
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Nov 15, 2015 14:56
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They also all lie about this and throw unrealistic numbers around not to mention ignore what it would mean for the households. Their numbers always boil down to calories per day, ignoring what kind of food it is. From what I've seen here in Switzerland seasons are also abstracted which further falsifies the data. Most of Europe uses the rest of the world for food production and couldn't sustain their populations if there was a loss of supply. They would need way too much time to setup proper inland production again. Planting potatoes on every patch of green in a city is nice propaganda but it doesn't really help with production numbers.
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Nov 15, 2015 15:49
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This is actually pretty fascinating stuff. Where can I read more about it? Any good books on food security / supply chains come out recently?
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Nov 15, 2015 16:39
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Tahirovic posted:They also all lie about this and throw unrealistic numbers around not to mention ignore what it would mean for the households. Their numbers always boil down to calories per day, ignoring what kind of food it is. From what I've seen here in Switzerland seasons are also abstracted which further falsifies the data. Pretty sure we could feed ourselves, it would just require us to stop being whiny bitches and eat like the majority of the worlds population does. So total societal collapse then.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:09
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It was a pretty  moment for me when I learned that modern Egypt can't feed itself after spending so much time reading about it being the breadbasket of the ancient mediterranean.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:10
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uninverted posted:It was a pretty Really? Here in Germany, most of the grapes you buy at the supermarket come either from Egypt or Spain, so they definitely export at least some types of food.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:12
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Egypt has been running out of arable land for decades. Ever since the dam on the Nile there is significantly less flooding on its banks so every year less land is enriched with silt and more land is made available for housing and other development.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:19
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Drone posted:Really? Here in Germany, most of the grapes you buy at the supermarket come either from Egypt or Spain, so they definitely export at least some types of food. See that's why those "we can feed ourself up to X%" statistics fail. It might work out on a calories per day but it is unlikely people would know how to do it. Realisticly if you cut a countries supply and they rely on their own production for food the country will crash and burn down.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:26
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Tahirovic posted:See that's why those "we can feed ourself up to X%" statistics fail. It might work out on a calories per day but it is unlikely people would know how to do it. Realisticly if you cut a countries supply and they rely on their own production for food the country will crash and burn down. But it's easy to do it. An average adult man needs like 2400 kcal a day, right? That's only what, 400 grams of chocolate? I can easily manage to eat that. Now they just need to somehow enrich chocolate with enough micronutrients so I wouldn't die.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:49
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GrossMurpel posted:But it's easy to do it. An average adult man needs like 2400 kcal a day, right? That's only what, 400 grams of chocolate? I can easily manage to eat that.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:42
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Decrepus posted:Editor has gone with poor editing has happened to them. Speaking of,  My people appear to have come down with a case of the deadlies. DrSunshine posted:This is actually pretty fascinating stuff. Where can I read more about it? Any good books on food security / supply chains come out recently? Just a warning, don't go too far down that rabbit hole. I swear my mom did and half the books she read back then reeked of scare tactics and zombie apocalypse survivalism but for gardening. How about a book about a thinly veiled Monsanto's terminator gene hopping into every plant around regardless of how impossible it is for corn to mix with trees and grass? Or how about a super strong solar flare, forcing everyone back to pre-industrial "good living"...ignoring how we'd just pollute even worse and why would we not just make new electronics? There was a similar one about electricity just not working anymore. Somehow the entirety of reality stayed the same...That's not how physics works! Those are the extremes, but all it takes is a step towards survivalism with gardening and BAM, you're reading tin-foil crazy books.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:05
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Bel Monte posted:Just a warning, don't go too far down that rabbit hole. I swear my mom did and half the books she read back then reeked of scare tactics and zombie apocalypse survivalism but for gardening.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:09
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zedprime posted:I assume they are looking for non-fiction digests on the food supply chain, and not pop fiction. That's how it started with my mom too.  Thankfully she's grown out of it.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:06
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i wonder what food sources you can find in solaris
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Nov 15, 2015 22:29
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DrSunshine posted:This is actually pretty fascinating stuff. Where can I read more about it? Any good books on food security / supply chains come out recently? The most recent one that I read that touched on the subject was a fiction series with the flashpoint being a series of terrorist attacks hitting a few key major oil refineries around the world, providing one of those "quick shocks" to the system, it doesn't focus hugely on that, but more on the effects to certain characters and what have you. One of the more harrowing things the author touched upon was that the measures of certain countries like Germany to have stocks prepared actually made things worse - rather than a quick die off with lots of excess long-term viable food that supports a vastly reduced collection of societies transitioning to sustainability - that you see with the PoV characters in the UK in this case, for better or worse - large amounts of people survive for longer in Germany and the like and consume more of that stock before ensuring any sustainability, then they all die off and essentially ruin their own chances. Spoiler just to cover my bases. I believe its called Last Light (By Alex Scarrow) and its the first of a series. Like I say its main focus is of course characters and the like but it does touch on some of the subject matter, albeit through the lens of an artificial peak oil type scenario. Westminster System fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 22:48
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Westminster System posted:One of the more harrowing things the author touched upon was that the measures of certain countries like Germany to have stocks prepared actually made things worse - rather than a quick die off with lots of excess long-term viable food that supports a vastly reduced collection of societies transitioning to sustainability - that you see with the PoV characters in the UK in this case, for better or worse - large amounts of people survive for longer in Germany and the like and consume more of that stock before ensuring any sustainability, then they all die off and essentially ruin their own chances.
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Nov 16, 2015 01:18
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Mans posted:i wonder what food sources you can find in solaris pre spacefaring civs are a pretty good source imo
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Nov 16, 2015 01:24
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Haha 3/4ths of the HoI4 forums page is now separate threads to complain about supplies. Game's going to end up even better due to loss of retarded fan base.
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Nov 16, 2015 02:25
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You just wait until tomorrow when 3/4 of the forum I really don't get why people complain about this stuff though. It seems like even from a realism stance this makes more sense; the supply lines are much more accurate and understandable. The lines themselves functioning in a way that makes sense is way more important than whether it's tinned cod or pixie dust that's actually on the boats.
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Nov 16, 2015 03:46
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