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Westminster System
Jul 4, 2009
Its pretty important to not put certain things in my Pykrete boat okay?

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V for Vegas
Sep 1, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

Haha 3/4ths of the HoI4 forums page is now separate threads to complain about supplies.

Game's going to end up even better due to loss of retarded fan base.

If HOI4 doesn't net dollar one, it will have paid for itself many times over in its epic trolling of the paradox forums.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

BBJoey
Oct 31, 2012

bring out the rebel bicolour

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I don't care that I didn't get in the beta, this is wonderful.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

Games > Paradox Grand Strategy Games should start thinking correctly

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009



The last one is the best. I think Paradox is indirectly getting rid of the wehraboos by designing the game to piss them off- as a bonus, it gets rid of non-Nazi grogs.

I'm still kind of confused on a few things and I'd like to see an example campaign or some such to see how supply in an area being fought over is handled. I'm sure the way ships work makes sense in context in the game.

Side question, how are coal-fired ships handled?

Enjoy
Apr 18, 2009

Koramei posted:

You just wait until tomorrow when 3/4 of the forum including me will be complaining about not getting into the beta.

I really don't get why people complain about this stuff though. It seems like even from a realism stance this makes more sense; the supply lines are much more accurate and understandable. The lines themselves functioning in a way that makes sense is way more important than whether it's tinned cod or pixie dust that's actually on the boats.

Supplies moving from province to province is more accurate and understandable it's just specifics in HoI3/AoD were a bit of a pain

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


Kavak posted:

Side question, how are coal-fired ships handled?

Very well, thank you.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort

lmao the "I know how to design a videogame better than professionals" entitlement is so loving delicious.

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011

What's got the Pdox forums up in arms about the supply system?

GSD
May 10, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo

Demiurge4 posted:

What's got the Pdox forums up in arms about the supply system?

Insufficient level of grognard.

Larry Parrish
Jul 9, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Bort Bortles posted:

lmao the "I know how to design a videogame better than professionals" entitlement is so loving delicious.

That's not a picture of this thread

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Lipstick Apathy
.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Nov 5, 2018

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009
Fun Shoe
I am sure one of these people will make a realistic and correct supply mod, with an easy solution for naval supplies.
Personally I am looking forward to planing the weekly menu for each Division based on their supply of rice, wine, beer, sugar, salt, spices, 28 types of fresh fruit, 32 types of vegetables and your cooking technology. This opens up a lot of new strategic questions, do I invade Brazil to keep my Banana supply steady or do I instead go for South Africa to have apples and pears year around?

Dibujante
Jul 27, 2004

Demiurge4 posted:

What's got the Pdox forums up in arms about the supply system?

Paradox is abstracting some of the distinct types of resources into a more general resource called "supplies" so you the game doesn't model e.g. infantry trying to fire diesel cans instead of bullets. All versimilitude is lost. A mad dog is attacking the polis; it shall face my knife.

Enjoy
Apr 18, 2009

Dibujante posted:

Paradox is abstracting some of the distinct types of resources into a more general resource called "supplies" so you the game doesn't model e.g. infantry trying to fire diesel cans instead of bullets. All versimilitude is lost. A mad dog is attacking the polis; it shall face my knife.

I thought they were removing supplies and having a supply cap like EU4, but for regions rather than provinces

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea
They're rolling the average lifetime supply use of a unit into its build cost. So tanks cost things like chromium, steel, tungsten and a fuckton of oil to make, but don't use up oil once they're operational. It's an abstraction which simplifies the supply system of the game, but does seem a little strange if you consider a single unit, and means that Japan can still sail its fleet around all day even once it has no oil supply - it just can't build any NEW ships.

communism bitch
Apr 24, 2009
It sounds pretty dumb tbh but i'll literally never play a HoI game so idgaf and can laugh at grogs having a strong fit about it.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

Gort posted:

They're rolling the average lifetime supply use of a unit into its build cost. So tanks cost things like chromium, steel, tungsten and a fuckton of oil to make, but don't use up oil once they're operational. It's an abstraction which simplifies the supply system of the game, but does seem a little strange if you consider a single unit, and means that Japan can still sail its fleet around all day even once it has no oil supply - it just can't build any NEW ships.

Have they answered yet whether or not you can repair ships without oil? If so it is pretty stupid and OP, but if not your fleet will be non operational soon enough without oil.

E: The other edge case I would be slightly concerned by is Germany using it's tanks only to exploit breakthroughs created by infantry and encircle units, but never committing them to a fair fight where they might take significant casualties. Which is pretty much already the best way to use armour in HOI, and if you could then never use fuel after your initial build of tanks as long as none of them died it could be quite unbalanced.

Pharnakes fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Nov 16, 2015

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea
Well, if you're never committing your tanks to a battle then you're an idiot who should be using the much cheaper, faster motorised infantry instead.

Also there's near-constant attrition in HoI4 outside of battle (as there should be - tanks need a constant supply of spare parts to do anything) so the goal of simply avoiding losing any is unattainable.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Oberleutnant posted:

It sounds pretty dumb tbh but i'll literally never play a HoI game so idgaf and can laugh at grogs having a strong fit about it.

Not even the mod that lets you play a communist Britain and bring the glory of the revolution to every corner of the globe?

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009
Fun Shoe

Gort posted:

They're rolling the average lifetime supply use of a unit into its build cost. So tanks cost things like chromium, steel, tungsten and a fuckton of oil to make, but don't use up oil once they're operational. It's an abstraction which simplifies the supply system of the game, but does seem a little strange if you consider a single unit, and means that Japan can still sail its fleet around all day even once it has no oil supply - it just can't build any NEW ships.

Pretty sure the ships will require the generic supply resource which likely needs oil to produce in the first place?

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

Tahirovic posted:

Pretty sure the ships will require the generic supply resource which likely needs oil to produce in the first place?

The Dev Diary posted:

In HOI3 supplies was something you produced and stockpiled, then fed into a flow network towards units. In HOI4 the only thing you can stockpile is equipment so this is what you do. Moving, training, fighting, being in bad weather or in particular in bad supply means equipment breaks down and this equipment needs to be shipped. The worse a supply situation is the longer it will take to send equipment and the more attrition you will take. So instead of a flow network we have a system being limited by bottlenecks.

There is no generic supply resource. It's rolled into the cost of equipment now.

One of the reasons this was done was to prevent every player just stockpiling gigantic amounts of supplies and oil before the war and therefore never getting impacted by the lack of supplies and oil at any point in the war. If we're going from "Japan/Germany never suffers problems from lack of supply" to "Japan/Germany only suffers problems from lack of supply when it comes to making new units" then I call it a win.

Gort fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Nov 16, 2015

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011

Yeah, I don't really get what people are so up in arms about. They said very early on that you will be pretty much constantly suffering some amount of equipment attrition (tanks, infantry eq, support eq, motorized eq, etc), whether you're in combat or not, with the rate being higher while moving, training, fighting or in difficult terrain, which means you will have to be replacing equipment all the time to keep your units combat effective, and you will have to invest more resources into this during war, and this will cost you resources.

Ships will be different as you won't constantly need to replace those, but so what, the supply system seems pretty good to me. If you really, really, really wanted a system where you need oil to move units that use fuel then some sort of "fuel threshold" mechanic might work without running into the problems of countries living off massive stockpiles and stuff. Say, depending on how many units you have which would require fuel to be able to move and fight effectivevely that this sets a fuel threshold for your nation. If your daily oil income exceeds this, then you are fine, if below then those untis will suffer, movement, range and organization penalties depending on how far below the threshold you are. You would not expend this oil it would just require you to have a certain daily oil income (and this oil could be used for other things). But, until I am proven wrong, I think the supply system discussed in the previous dev diary sounds just fine and both intuitive and interesting.

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009
Fun Shoe
Hey I am not against it, I actually like it since it should make the game more accessible for me. It's me I am the one who wants the game dumbed down!

Pinback
Jul 22, 2012

I've been having real awful dreams about giant apocalyptic machinery
just mowing us all down...

Gort posted:

There is no generic supply resource. It's rolled into the cost of equipment now.

One of the reasons this was done was to prevent every player just stockpiling gigantic amounts of supplies and oil before the war and therefore never getting impacted by the lack of supplies and oil at any point in the war. If we're going from "Japan/Germany never suffers problems from lack of supply" to "Japan/Germany only suffers problems from lack of supply when it comes to making new units" then I call it a win.

My understanding is that new equipment is needed to reinforce/repair/maintain units. So in the aforementioned Japanese Navy example, you'd have ships that would never repair damage and would degrade in fighting capability over time. Or something like that.

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011

Frontspac posted:

My understanding is that new equipment is needed to reinforce/repair/maintain units. So in the aforementioned Japanese Navy example, you'd have ships that would never repair damage and would degrade in fighting capability over time. Or something like that.

Yeah, they haven't really mentioned any details about ship repairs yet and whether it will cost resources.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

Frontspac posted:

My understanding is that new equipment is needed to reinforce/repair/maintain units.

Yes, where "equipment" is things like "1 tank" or "1 battleship". In tank units a unit might be losing 5% of its strength to attrition, so needs 50 new tanks a month to maintain its strength.

quote:

So in the aforementioned Japanese Navy example, you'd have ships that would never repair damage and would degrade in fighting capability over time. Or something like that.

This is not the case within the information we have so far. If it does cost oil to repair capital ships, it's a mechanic we have not yet been shown.

Within the mechanics we HAVE been shown, ships will be able to move and fight without any resource requirements. As Podcat said in the dev diary thread in response to someone saying, "This is a huge buff to the Japanese navy":

Podcat posted:

yes this is a downside from a pure simulation perspective in that they can be more active. its also a buff to fun since you dont have to stick them in a port the whoel game. They still have the same issues as historical though: A desperate need for oil to replace lost ships and build a big enough navy to fight USA (USA can affort do lose ships, japan really can't since they take so long to build).

So it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing damaged ships requiring resources to repair or Podcat would have mentioned it in his response.

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009
Fun Shoe
Looks like having an iMac to play games on doesn't make me special enough


Shame the Paradox forums give me cancer, or I'd try that.

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003
Guess my grog and grog-lite beta experience was exactly the wrong kind!

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011

I just wrote "I like beer" into the field and figured Wiz would accept his kindred spirit.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


quote:

Hi!

We are sorry to inform you that you did not make it to the Hearts of Iron IV Beta at this time.

You've taken away my ability to feel human, Paradox. :smith: as with every expansion, product announcement, and exhalation

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!
I got into the Rome beta, but my computer chugged so bad with the game in unoptimized debug mode(?), and every bug I wanted to report had already been reported by someone else that I felt like a bad beta, and I figured I'd been put on a bad beta blacklist. :smith:

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:
I was not chosen to participate in a Paradox beta, despite previous beta experience. I must conclude now, knowing more about Paradox, that I was rejected for being Danish, and thus there is no reason for me to sign up in the future.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


A Buttery Pastry posted:

rejected for being a Danish

And now the username/post combo makes sense

Ofaloaf
Feb 15, 2013

Aw man, my application for paid QA tester was declined, too. :(

Job hunting right now sucks. Sweep me away to Stockholm, pls paradox

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009
Definitely should have written a long rant about Oil and Fuel and Yamato as viewed through the lens of WitP. If only the supply diary had come out first.

communism bitch
Apr 24, 2009
Just put a link to a photo of a bottle of bacon vodka in the application form ya drat nerds

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Pimpmust
Oct 1, 2008

I don't think I ever had to sit a fleet in port due to lack of oil in HoI2/AoD/DH. Sure, if I had the entire japanese fleet do donuts all year long I'd probably run out, but why the gently caress would I do that?
Range was a bigger issue, and the AI ignored that too.

Only ever ran out of oil if I didn't bother stockpiling enough pre-war as Germany and constructed too many mech/arm divisions so I really don't see the new system being worse at representing fuel issues.

Besides, my Panzers run on pure burning ethanol :smug:

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