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Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Pimpmust posted:

Besides, my Panzers run on pure burning ethanol :smug:

That molotov that go thrown on your panzer doesnt count as a fuel source

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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I should have just made up a bunch of really obscure and inherently unlikely to be replicable bug reports for EU4 to show my dedication. :(

GenderSelectScreen
Mar 7, 2010

I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME
College Slice
I guess putting "I'm Hitlers Gay Secret" in my application didn't help my chances.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Drone posted:

And now the username/post combo makes sense
:v:

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

I guess putting "I'm Hitlers Gay Secret" in my application didn't help my chances.
The secret code word is "The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong".

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

A Buttery Pastry posted:

The secret code word is "The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong".

"Rudolf Hess is my co-pilot"

Pimpmust
Oct 1, 2008

I didn't even apply, the trick is to play hard-to-get :colbert:


I'll get in any day now.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Pimpmust posted:

I don't think I ever had to sit a fleet in port due to lack of oil in HoI2/AoD/DH. Sure, if I had the entire japanese fleet do donuts all year long I'd probably run out, but why the gently caress would I do that?
Range was a bigger issue, and the AI ignored that too.

Only ever ran out of oil if I didn't bother stockpiling enough pre-war as Germany and constructed too many mech/arm divisions so I really don't see the new system being worse at representing fuel issues.

Besides, my Panzers run on pure burning ethanol :smug:

Neither have I in 3.

It's a weird line historically too. While yes in the biggest picture possible if Japan and/or Germany had infinite fuel or similar resources it'd change things (like, you probably wouldn't have had WW2 at all?), I'm not sure how much resources played in the strategic decision making during the 10 year window of the game.

-It's hard to look at any of the alliances or invasion targets picked by the Germans or Japanese and say "oh that was a resource move" I think.
-In fact it's hard to think of a significant number of engagements where anyone retreated or didn't press an advantage primarily because of fuel. IDK- maybe there was some naval battle in the Pacific that had that issue? But as a guy who watched a lot of History Channel as a kid I'm drawing a blank
-While in theory Germany and Japan's naval strength should be limited by a lack of fuel, they're also limited by their lack of starting navy and lack of overall production capacity anyways (respectively), so you end up with the same effect
-Since you start with your historic fleets, it's not as if one side is getting much of an advantage in the supposedly "free to run ships" department any more than usual. England and the US will have huge navies, as they did, and neither had a ton of trouble keeping them fueled strategically (some of the PDX navy buffs will talk about fueling range, but that's an entirely different game-mechanic issue)


To me it comes off as an issue if you try and take the game rules and apply them as physics. Always applicable. But for the context of the game being made, I think fuel is an irrelevant issue.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

Neither have I in 3.

It's a weird line historically too. While yes in the biggest picture possible if Japan and/or Germany had infinite fuel or similar resources it'd change things (like, you probably wouldn't have had WW2 at all?), I'm not sure how much resources played in the strategic decision making during the 10 year window of the game.

-It's hard to look at any of the alliances or invasion targets picked by the Germans or Japanese and say "oh that was a resource move" I think.
-In fact it's hard to think of a significant number of engagements where anyone retreated or didn't press an advantage primarily because of fuel. IDK- maybe there was some naval battle in the Pacific that had that issue? But as a guy who watched a lot of History Channel as a kid I'm drawing a blank
-While in theory Germany and Japan's naval strength should be limited by a lack of fuel, they're also limited by their lack of starting navy and lack of overall production capacity anyways (respectively), so you end up with the same effect
-Since you start with your historic fleets, it's not as if one side is getting much of an advantage in the supposedly "free to run ships" department any more than usual. England and the US will have huge navies, as they did, and neither had a ton of trouble keeping them fueled strategically (some of the PDX navy buffs will talk about fueling range, but that's an entirely different game-mechanic issue)


To me it comes off as an issue if you try and take the game rules and apply them as physics. Always applicable. But for the context of the game being made, I think fuel is an irrelevant issue.

I dunno about Germany so much but what the gently caress did you think the war in the Pacific was all about?

Riso
Oct 11, 2008

by merry exmarx
Dutch East Indies was a prime resources move just like the German drive into the Caucasus.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos

Pharnakes posted:

I dunno about Germany so much but what the gently caress did you think the war in the Pacific was all about?
Fix the godawful borders European powers had in the colonial holdings.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Pharnakes posted:

I dunno about Germany so much but what the gently caress did you think the war in the Pacific was all about?

It was, as nominally was Germany's lebensraum- but the actual war decisions really didn't do much in that regard. Japan had Manchuria and barely exploited it - resource wise at least. Diqing oil field wasn't discovered until 1959. Then Japan spends a bunch of energy and manpower fighting a very broad front war against China, and when they start looking at the South Pacific they don't really bee-line to Indonesia to get what oil's there. Similarly, Romania doesn't join the Axis until November of 1940, and it wasn't like Hitler was clamoring to force them in either. Instead, Hitler's focused on invading Norway for...dubious reasons. Basically, little of the war plays out as a focused or even determined grab for resources.


e- basically in the long run (as in for decades or generations to come) Germany and Japan were concerned about expanding their own resources and oil. But they didn't look at their war-plans as "ok we grab this area here then we have the oil then we can keep going but otherwise we're really screwed and we won't be able to sail our ships tomorrow."

Fidel Cuckstro fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 16, 2015

Zohar
Jul 14, 2013

Good kitty

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

Japan had Manchuria and barely exploited it - resource wise at least. Diqing oil field wasn't discovered until 1959. Then Japan spends a bunch of energy and manpower fighting a very broad front war against China, and when they start looking at the South Pacific they don't really bee-line to Indonesia to get what oil's there.

Oil maybe but this is BS in general, Japan was generally successful in extracting large amounts of heavy industrial material from Manchuria like iron, coal, steel etc, and the entire Southeast Asia plan was based on securing resources -- many in the Japanese military were pretty uncomfortable with the idea of fighting other Asians when their ideological purpose was to gear up to kick out the West from Asia, it's not like the Nazis where killing Slavs was viewed as a good thing from day one

Ms Adequate
Oct 30, 2011

Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling



All these posts saying simplification is good and grogs are bad are very Triggering to me, please stop.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

It was, as nominally was Germany's lebensraum- but the actual war decisions really didn't do much in that regard. Japan had Manchuria and barely exploited it - resource wise at least. Diqing oil field wasn't discovered until 1959. Then Japan spends a bunch of energy and manpower fighting a very broad front war against China, and when they start looking at the South Pacific they don't really bee-line to Indonesia to get what oil's there. Similarly, Romania doesn't join the Axis until November of 1940, and it wasn't like Hitler was clamoring to force them in either. Instead, Hitler's focused on invading Norway for...dubious reasons. Basically, little of the war plays out as a focused or even determined grab for resources.

Err, seizing the SRA was the entire reason Japan went to war dude. Without it the US embargo would have meant an end to the Adventure in China. The Japanese were well aware they couldn't hope to defeat the Allies in a conventional war, the whole plan was a smash and grab to try and seize as much as resources as possible and hold on to it so stubbornly the allies would say well, shucks, best let you keep some of that while we go beat up on Germany some more. I suppose you could argue that the Pacific war was an inevitable extension of the China gambit and thus was about conquering China not Oil, but that is a very stupid argument. As for why they didn't exploit Manchuko, well the certainly tried to the best of their ability. Post WW2 the geological knowledge behind oil came a huge way. before WW1 there were only really 6 or 7 major oil sources in the world. You might as well ask why Britain didn't exploit Nigerian oil rather than buying from the US, the techniques for finding it just weren't there.

Star
Jul 15, 2005

Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment.
Fallen Rib
The new Stellaris DD about planets https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-9-planets-resources.891510/

Enjoy
Apr 18, 2009

Mister Adequate posted:

All these posts saying simplification is good and grogs are bad are very Triggering to me, please stop.

It's all very Pavlovian

GenderSelectScreen
Mar 7, 2010

I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME
College Slice
Or maybe you guys can stop acting so loving autistic and stop trying to make a game real life.

Who the gently caress cares about what Germany and Japan did with their oil IRL, it doesn't matter because oil isn't a resource in HoI4.

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011


Adjacency could work really well or really badly. I think they took more inspiration from Master of Orion 3 than they did from Galactic Civilizations with regards to planet tiles, which is a good thing because MOO3 actually had a very cool system in place so here's to optimism :toot:

Palleon
Aug 11, 2003

I've got a hot deal on a bridge to the Pegasus Galaxy!
Grimey Drawer
It sounds literally identical to Gal Civ 3 to me from a first read.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Palleon posted:

It sounds literally identical to Gal Civ 3 to me from a first read.

At the very least, very orthodox for the genre.

Riso
Oct 11, 2008

by merry exmarx

Mister Adequate posted:

All these posts saying simplification is good and grogs are bad are very Triggering to me, please stop.

I don't think I've seen you post in the grog thread yet.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

-It's hard to look at any of the alliances or invasion targets picked by the Germans or Japanese and say "oh that was a resource move" I think.

The entire Pacific War was a resource move. You could probably make the argument that the entire war was, German industry ran on resources stolen from France and Eastern Europe for years longer than it otherwise would have.

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

In fact it's hard to think of a significant number of engagements where anyone retreated or didn't press an advantage primarily because of fuel. IDK- maybe there was some naval battle in the Pacific that had that issue?

Lack of resources is a strategic problem, not a tactical one. Here's a really simple, obvious example of how lack of resources affected the war: pilot training. Both Japan and Germany had catastrophic shortages of well-trained pilots because they simply couldn't afford to waste fuel giving them hours up in the air. 1940-1942 the average luftwaffe pilot had 200-300+ hours training in actual planes that flew. By 1944 a fighter pilot could be on the front lines with less than 100 hours flight time. There's a million more examples from sub-par steel in both Germany and Japan causing vehicles to underperform to engagements simply not happening because Japan couldn't afford to move ships.

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

It was, as nominally was Germany's lebensraum- but the actual war decisions really didn't do much in that regard. Japan had Manchuria and barely exploited it - resource wise at least. Diqing oil field wasn't discovered until 1959. Then Japan spends a bunch of energy and manpower fighting a very broad front war against China, and when they start looking at the South Pacific they don't really bee-line to Indonesia to get what oil's there. Similarly, Romania doesn't join the Axis until November of 1940, and it wasn't like Hitler was clamoring to force them in either. Instead, Hitler's focused on invading Norway for...dubious reasons. Basically, little of the war plays out as a focused or even determined grab for resources.


e- basically in the long run (as in for decades or generations to come) Germany and Japan were concerned about expanding their own resources and oil. But they didn't look at their war-plans as "ok we grab this area here then we have the oil then we can keep going but otherwise we're really screwed and we won't be able to sail our ships tomorrow."

Oil isn't the only resource in the world worth going to war over. Germany invaded Denmark and Norway to secure iron and to prevent the British from invading to cut off those iron supplies. The Ukraine is incredibly rich and was stripped of anything valuable and the attempted invasion of the Caucuses was famously a drive for oil.

Manchuria is incredibly rich in natural resources and produced tons of minerals that would promptly be shipped back to Japan, most notably tens of millions of tons of coal and several million tons of oil annually. Calling the Japanese occupation of Machuria & Korea "Barely Exploiting" is to put it mildly, extremely wrong and probably offensive. Burma/Malaya/Sumatra/the whole SRA are extremely rich in oil, rubber and other valuable resources. Remember that Japan is an island with effectively no natural resources of any kind. Their industry relied on brutally occupying other nations and stripping them of anything valuable for shipment back to Japan. The entire Pacific war centered around Japan's insatiable need to invade somewhere, anywhere for raw materials and the consequences of that.

e: Also HOIV's resource system is cool and good.

uPen fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Nov 16, 2015

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
I'm very excited to tell you all that I have not been chosen for the HoI4 beta! I guess being recruited for an internal alpha-test for Endless Space based on a HoI 3 mod I made still wasn't enough to earn a spot.

But then again, not having made any posts on the paradox forums in like 3 years probably didn't help.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009
Personally I thought my non existent paradox plaza post history a plus, but maybe I was wrong.

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Came here to bark at you




I haven't been able to access the Paradox forums in years. I forgot my password at some point and attempting to reset it brings up an error page, so :rip: I guess.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos
To be melodramatic, that's almost exactly what I pictured in my head as what sort of tile system to run screaming away from. I should reserve judgement until they talk about how buildings work and why you would or wouldn't use some sort of automation as governors, but seeing a big grid of varying resources is always slightly a bummer because I don't know why you wouldn't have buttons that automate it in such a way that tiles don't even really need to be present.

Apoffys
Sep 5, 2011

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

It was, as nominally was Germany's lebensraum- but the actual war decisions really didn't do much in that regard. Japan had Manchuria and barely exploited it - resource wise at least. Diqing oil field wasn't discovered until 1959. Then Japan spends a bunch of energy and manpower fighting a very broad front war against China, and when they start looking at the South Pacific they don't really bee-line to Indonesia to get what oil's there. Similarly, Romania doesn't join the Axis until November of 1940, and it wasn't like Hitler was clamoring to force them in either. Instead, Hitler's focused on invading Norway for...dubious reasons. Basically, little of the war plays out as a focused or even determined grab for resources.


e- basically in the long run (as in for decades or generations to come) Germany and Japan were concerned about expanding their own resources and oil. But they didn't look at their war-plans as "ok we grab this area here then we have the oil then we can keep going but otherwise we're really screwed and we won't be able to sail our ships tomorrow."

Here's a recording of Hitler in 1942 talking about how crucial the Romanian oil wells were and how worried he was that the Soviets would seize them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUD7YN--_VU

I don't know whether it is true, but he is literally saying they would be screwed without that oil.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

zedprime posted:

To be melodramatic, that's almost exactly what I pictured in my head as what sort of tile system to run screaming away from. I should reserve judgement until they talk about how buildings work and why you would or wouldn't use some sort of automation as governors, but seeing a big grid of varying resources is always slightly a bummer because I don't know why you wouldn't have buttons that automate it in such a way that tiles don't even really need to be present.

The tiles being there isn't bad in itself, it's an OK way to visualise a planet I think. But I do agree that since it seems there will be a clear optimal development plan for each planet there should be a button that builds it for you, rather than having to work it out yourself for however many planets. I'd also be sad to see the optimal path be monopoly planets.

Gay Horney
Feb 10, 2013

by Reene
wasnt German tanks running out of fuel a major reason they lost a few key battles? How will this supply system represent stuff like the battle of the bulge?

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011

Pharnakes posted:

The tiles being there isn't bad in itself, it's an OK way to visualise a planet I think. But I do agree that since it seems there will be a clear optimal development plan for each planet there should be a button that builds it for you, rather than having to work it out yourself for however many planets. I'd also be sad to see the optimal path be monopoly planets.

Specialized planets are boring as hell. It's why Galciv has failed to capture because it just doesn't make sense that one planet just produces culture and another makes a bunch of money. Primary hub planets should do all those things well but have one thing they're better at. Therefore I hope that planet tiles will lean towards giving the best bonus for their tile type. Mountains are of course best for mining minerals but if your race is subterranean it can also give a population limit boost. Swamps can be terraformed into better farmlands and so on. Buildings would shake this up a little bit so if you have a plains tile surrounded by two mountains on either side it's a prime location for a manufactory which gains a production bonus from the mines you have in the mountain tiles. Planets should also have the ability to host various improvements that boost the sector as a whole. For example if you have three planets in a system you can build a system capital on the best one and it'll provide some passive bonus to the other two at the cost of a tile, but if its a lonely planet in a system that tile is better used for something else.

Planetary interaction can absolutely work really well with tiles but it shouldn't naturally give over to X planet just stacked mines and a spaceport because mines boost adjacent mines.

Edit: In fact you can make adjacency bonuses work well with limiters. So say you have two mines on either side of a tile and put a manufactory in the center tile. The manufactory has 2 slots for mine bonuses so it is of course best to surround it by mines. But the mines themselves only have 1 slot and that is given over to the manufactory so it's not optimal to simple spam the tiles as Mine-Manufactory-Mine-Manufactory in a straight line forever.

Demiurge4 fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 16, 2015

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Demiurge4 posted:

Planetary interaction can absolutely work really well with tiles but it shouldn't naturally give over to X planet just stacked mines and a spaceport because mines boost adjacent mines.

Yeah iyam it actually makes more sense for there to be adjacency bonuses for different buildings rather than same ones. So having a mine next to a factory boosts factory output and having a factory next to a shipyard boosts ship production, and having farmland next to a commercial centre boosts money production and having a commercial centre next to a cultural centre or research facility boosts cultural and research production. In addition, it should be more expensive to operate higher-production-chain buildings like factories or shipyards if they lack the necessary resources on-world, to represent the fact that they would have to be importing all the raw materials. This not only makes more diverse planets more valuable since you actually have to build supply chains to be maximally efficient, it also makes single-use specialized planets dumb and bad.

It also makes more sense. Having one world that's 100% mines providing minerals to a planet half a galaxy away that's 100% factories makes no sense and would be ridiculously costly for transportation alone. Instead, it makes sense that factories would be more productive if you can provide them with a local efficient supply chain, and that commercial centres would be more productive if you can supply them with food to support a larger population.

vyelkin fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 16, 2015

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009
Well yes, but then it's just optimal to do mine-manufactory-mine-mine-manufactory-mine

Sage Grimm
Feb 18, 2013

Let's go explorin' little dude!
Nah, you're stuck with line thinking. You gotta build tiles of this poo poo and tessellate. Or break it into its 6 possible arrangements for even finer placement.

code:
 mm 
mFFm
mFFm
 mm 

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Pharnakes posted:

Well yes, but then it's just optimal to do mine-manufactory-mine-mine-manufactory-mine

I feel like this kind of thing can be gotten around by providing bonuses and penalties to different building types based on terrain and then having varied terrain. So yeah if you happen to coincidentally get a planet that's a checkerboard of mountains and plains, building a web of mines and factories might work well. But if not, then you're getting penalties from putting mines in farmland and factories in the ocean.

You should also have to provide some essentials for your pops, like commercial centres and farmland, as the planet grows and becomes more populous and demanding, if you really want to make players actually pay attention to their planets instead of setting a build queue to fill every tile and then never looking at them again. imo the tile/building planet system is overdone in space 4Xes but if this is what Paradox is doing they should at least try to make it interesting.

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011

Alright let's sperg out for a bit then, we'll use this planet as the example.


If you look on the right side you'll note that it appears they've used farm-city-farm going down. The farm tiles are mountains which means they produce less food, but the city tile is a flat plains tile which means it has bigger base food production and gains bonuses from both of the other farms which comes together into a fuckload of food. Ideally, the player would then terraform the swamp at the top to unlock the tile and build another city there, and then a farm on the left. However I posit that the farm shouldn't boost more than one tile at a time and if you want that kind of bonus again you should put the city in the top center tile and farms on either side again. The farms on the right side would not give each other any bonuses at all. This makes adjacency bonuses significant, but still local and you won't be able to chain a bonus across the entire planet, and you're instead encouraged to put your bonuses where they make the most sense and gain a variety of them which translates into a productive and diversified planet. On the left side we can place a lab underneath the creatures in the tile above and gain some kind of bonus there.

The dev diary however notes its best to place reactors next to each other though so I'm going to assume it works the exact opposite and you are encouraged to chain bonuses across the whole planet instead, which leads to specialization, especially if the game has percentage bonuses to one type of production.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

Sharzak posted:

wasnt German tanks running out of fuel a major reason they lost a few key battles? How will this supply system represent stuff like the battle of the bulge?

It'll be more like the Germans losing key battles because they didn't have enough fuel to build enough tanks to fight the battles - technically different, effectively similar.

The Battle of the Bulge will be the Germans pulling their tank and air units from the front long enough for them to reinforce, then bringing them back in as part of an offensive.

I think the main difference will be when you're dealing with navies that historically couldn't operate and got sunk in port - those will instead get sunk doing operations by a numerically superior enemy.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009
Can the AI handle that though? It's always been easy to pick apart a superior navy using whatever the current flavoured doomstack is. Unless that has been changed you could just build 6 CV 6 DD or whatever proves to be best as Japan and if you pick your fights properly you can take the whole US navy out in a few years.

Pimpmust
Oct 1, 2008

That's always been the case though.

Maybe the naval AI will be better at forming and operating doomstacks :iiam:

Ms Adequate
Oct 30, 2011

Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling



I guess I'm just not good enough for Johan-senpei :nyoron:

I guess I should maybe have actually applied for the beta too, if I actually wanted in.

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Ms Adequate
Oct 30, 2011

Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling



Riso posted:

I don't think I've seen you post in the grog thread yet.

You just replied to a post? :confused:

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