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The best thing about DKR is that we're shown some revolutionary tribunals where cops and Batman collaborators are sentenced to death and we're obviously meant to be horrified at these show trials but everyone we see getting sentenced is actually 100% guilty so the system obviously works.
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# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:39 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 21:23 |
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Equeen posted:The fact that Superman was surprised at Wonder Woman's open support of gay marriage was a political statement, at least in that story. Why does he need to be gay? ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. I'm posting plenty of examples of the opposite. But you can't deny that Superman himself wanting to stay neutral about political events has been an enduring consistent trait throughout his books. It's telling that most instances where Superman does significantly favor one or another sociopolitical stance are Elseworlds stories. The strength of Elseworlds, of course, lies in the way that they differentiate from "standard" storylines about the character in question, which is actually a great way to accentuate the character's original standard traits. If Superman's "differentiated" Elseworlds traits are so often presented as him being politically-passionate one way or another, it just goes to show that his mainstream, standard traits are usually that of him being as non-partisan as he can be. Which is why it was so preposterous for you to toss out those Action Comics #900 scans like, "Oh hey, if this poor peasant read 'actual Superman comics' like this significant consequential saga about Superman's foreign policies, then he'd know how very heavily-political Superman really is!" Well, see, the fact is that if someone read anything from Joe Kelly's run or Greg Rucka's run or the Willingham/Winick "Decisions" series BB referenced, it is completely understandable that they'd have an impression that DC tries hard to keep their Superman character from being too partisan one way or another, even if the very storyline he appears in contains heavy political themes.
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# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:40 |
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BrianWilly posted:But you can't deny that Superman himself wanting to stay neutral about political events has been an enduring consistent trait throughout his books. What the poo poo does this have to do with the argument "DC comics does not politicize Superman?" Superman attempting to remain politically neutral is not the same as the character being apolitical especially when those attempts to remain politically neutral are themselves political because "Superman doesn't want to comment on Lex Luthor running for President" is not the same thing as "Superman has no opinion/does not voice an opinion of Lex Luthor running for President." Nor does it mean the character's stories are not making statements about things. (Especially when they frequently do.) BrianWilly posted:Well, see, the fact is that if someone read anything from Joe Kelly's run or Greg Rucka's run or the Willingham/Winick "Decisions" series BB referenced, it is completely understandable that they'd have an impression that DC tries hard to keep their Superman character from being too partisan one way or another, even if the very storyline he appears in contains heavy political themes. No it isn't. You're completely and utterly incapable of grasping the idea that a character can make political statements without being political. Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Even him refusing to speak there is meaningful because it comes after his wife openly states who she voted for and demands to know if 'his vote cancelled hers out.' Edit: ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Nov 16, 2015 |
# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:45 |
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FreudianSlippers posted:everyone we see getting sentenced is actually 100% guilty so the system obviously works. Do they show anyone besides Gordon getting sentenced?
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# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:57 |
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ImpAtom posted:Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Th I like to think that Superman swooped in and grabbed you before you could finish this thought. He just doesn't want anyone to know, ok? Edit: aw you fixed it
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# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:58 |
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Electromax posted:Do they show anyone besides Gordon getting sentenced? Yeah, they showed one of the other corrupt guys first. Gordon came after. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I like to think that Superman swooped in and grabbed you before you could finish this thought. He just doesn't want anyone to know, ok? I'm sorry.
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# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:58 |
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ImpAtom posted:What the poo poo does this have to do with the argument "DC comics does not politicize Superman?" Superman attempting to remain politically neutral is not the same as the character being apolitical especially when those attempts to remain politically neutral are themselves political because "Superman doesn't want to comment on Lex Luthor running for President" is not the same thing as "Superman has no opinion/does not voice an opinion of Lex Luthor running for President." Nor does it mean the character's stories are not making statements about things. (Especially when they frequently do.) And because the character itself is so generally silent on so many political matters, readers on any side of the spectrum can say "Well, hey, it's just the writer using Superman as his own political mouthpiece" whenever Superman does deviate from the middle ground. You yourself have noted this. And so "Superman," the fictional character, remains this political blank slate; the more that writers take him to the extremes on either end, the more nebulous "his" "real" stances are. Moreover, he gets to play catch-up to other characters' progressive ideals -- like Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, even Batman -- after they've cleared the field and it's safer for him to do so. In Kingdom Come and Injustice, it's Wonder Woman who eggs him on and enables his extremism. In New Frontier, she's the radical Vietnam-sympathizer who wakes him up from his stooge-like stupor. The walking talking political maelstrom that is Wonder Woman gets to advocate for gay marriage while poor non-committal Superman stands bemusedly on the sidelines. See, even in stories where Superman is bluntly-political, they still get to say "See, this isn't the normal Superman, and look how tame he is compared to those other guys." ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. You're completely and utterly incapable of grasping the idea that a character can make political statements without being political. Before you blow another gasket responding and editing, I ought to mention that I don't actually disagree about Superman being a source of political narratives. All I said is that it's incredibly easy to see him as a non-partisan figure from reading his books and that DC hasn't exactly tried to fight that impression.
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# ? Nov 16, 2015 23:36 |
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Martman posted:The only way to be political is to be gay apparently. This is unironically a problem with the modern American left, yes.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 00:04 |
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FreudianSlippers posted:The best thing about DKR is that we're shown some revolutionary tribunals where cops and Batman collaborators are sentenced to death and we're obviously meant to be horrified at these show trials but everyone we see getting sentenced is actually 100% guilty so the system obviously works. I mean yes, technically Gordon is guilty of conspiring against Bane but that doesn't deserve death.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 00:34 |
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BrianWilly posted:And because the character itself is so generally silent on so many political matters No he isn't! You're taking the statement of "Superman, in-character, does not choose to openly endorse (some) political matters" and extending that to "Superman is never political." You keep pointing to the fact that Superman in-character does not use his Superman branding to support political parties and fail to realize that doesn't extend to Superman not expressing opinions on subject matter which he does. Superman doesn't look at the screen and go "vote Barack Obama 2016" but he certainly expresses his thoughts on things like immigration, medical care, gay marriage, war, gun control, drugs, and other subject matter. His exact thoughts on those subjects vary from writer to writer but that doesn't mean they're not there. BrianWilly posted:All I said is that it's incredibly easy to see him as a non-partisan figure from reading his books and that DC hasn't exactly tried to fight that impression. No it isn't. I've in fact posted plenty of examples and you keep going "Well, those are exceptions!" I posted a shot from the film this thread is about. If DC wanted Superman to be apolitical they would not be allowing Zach Snyder to make a film where their heroic protagonist is directly compared with illegal immigrants. I can keep going with posting panels. You can't look at this: and say it isn't political even if Superman isn't directly stating something. Someone doesn't include a giant Confederate flag and a stormfront T-Shirt by accident. And before you argue the Confederate Flag isn't controversial think back to events earlier this year. computer parts posted:I mean yes, technically Gordon is guilty of conspiring against Bane but that doesn't deserve death. Gordon was complacent in the cover up of Harvey Dent's actions which lead to the Dent Act and the erosion of criminal justice in Gotham. Gordon himself was aware of this and was even struggling with revealing it. I mean I agree that he doesn't deserve horrible mob execution but he was responsible for a fairly heinous act. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Nov 17, 2015 |
# ? Nov 17, 2015 00:43 |
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computer parts posted:I mean yes, technically Gordon is guilty of conspiring against Bane but that doesn't deserve death. Bane had some good ideas.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 01:06 |
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ImpAtom posted:Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Even him refusing to speak there is meaningful because it comes after his wife openly states who she voted for and demands to know if 'his vote cancelled hers out.' Haha Clark is blue and Lois is red
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 01:08 |
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Equeen posted:The fact that Superman was surprised at Wonder Woman's open support of gay marriage was a political statement, at least in that story. Why does he need to be gay? ImpAtom posted:Gordon was complacent in the cover up of Harvey Dent's actions which lead to the Dent Act and the erosion of criminal justice in Gotham. Gordon himself was aware of this and was even struggling with revealing it. I mean I agree that he doesn't deserve horrible mob execution but he was responsible for a fairly heinous act. ImpAtom posted:I can keep going with posting panels. You can't look at this: Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Nov 17, 2015 |
# ? Nov 17, 2015 01:57 |
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The Dent Act allowed Gotham to lock up tons of people without due process basically. It was a reactionary "tough on crime" thing in honor of Harvey Dent, and it (along with poor people migrating to the sewers) allowed the city (and Batman) to convince themselves they had won for 8 years when really it just covered up all the bad stuff.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 02:26 |
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I found this fictional letter on a Batman wiki. The only detail it provides is that parole is denied to gangsters. Why is that terrible? A lot states have abolished parole altogether.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 02:35 |
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Baron Bifford posted:Speaking of the Dent Act, what was so heinous about it? I don't remember the movie presenting any details about it, other than the fact it was effective. The Dent Act removed the possibility of parole, instituted much harsher punishments, created faster turnaround times (which in turn allowed for more abused) and in general was a really awful 'for the good' kind of law that circumvented due process and only got passed because they whitewashed Harvey Dent and took advantage of his death. Baron Bifford posted:This is an interesting panel. What issue is it from? But generally, politics not what he is. Yeah, on rare occasions he might beat up an abusive father or a white supremacist who sells illegal firearms to children (how controversial!) but it isn't the norm. Next issue he'll be back to punching silly monsters in the face. Superman: Birthright. It's another of the books that inspired Man of Steel.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 02:41 |
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Baron Bifford posted:This is an interesting panel. What issue is it from? But generally, politics not what he is. Yeah, on rare occasions he might beat up an abusive father or a white supremacist who sells illegal firearms to children (how controversial!) but it isn't the norm. Next issue he'll be back to punching silly monsters in the face. Then the issue after that he'll help Lois be black for a day so she can better understand racism in America. Superman both punches silly monsters and makes political statements, a lot. Even when he's punching silly monsters those monsters are sometimes stand ins for political issues. It really is possible to have a long and expansive history of being political without that being all he's about. poo poo, being for Truth, Justice, and the American Way is an inherently political thing. It means that everything he does is either the right way for an American to act or results in a lesson for America when shown to be wrong.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 03:03 |
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All Star Superman is probably my favorite take on the character, though I've read way more Batman stuff. It's telling to me that the most excited I've been while watching trailers for this is just shots of Bruce Wayne out of costume. That shot of his face looking at the suit in the first teaser and then moreso the shot of him running into the debris in Metropolis while everyone else was running away. The second shot was such a perfect "show, don't tell" moment that explains why people like that character. All the fighting and the DKR stuff drags it down a little for me, but I'm still excited to see it.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 03:06 |
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Anything Superman does is going to be political because it implicitly lays out for the reader what issues it's okay to be noncommittal on versus what issues any upstanding person, whatever their preferences, should be expected to uphold or reject. Like, right now you've got Superman being kind of "huh? oh, well, gosh, okay then" about a gay wedding. But even a decade ago you might've, instead, seen him steadfastly refusing to reveal to his fans whether or not he believed gay marriage should be legal or not.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 03:10 |
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Baron Bifford posted:I found this fictional letter on a Batman wiki. The only detail it provides is that parole is denied to gangsters. Why is that terrible? A lot states have abolished parole altogether. Hmm, I wonder if this might be a political topic.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 03:22 |
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Baron Bifford posted:I found this fictional letter on a Batman wiki. The only detail it provides is that parole is denied to gangsters. Why is that terrible? A lot states have abolished parole altogether. The movie explicitly describes how the Dent Act, among other things, removes segregation between men and women in prison, reduces the burden of evidence, and other lovely things. This is all directly from the film. (The first is how they excuse locking Catwoman up with dudes.) It is A Bad Thing.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 03:28 |
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Seriously, stop talking to Baron Bifford. His entire gimmick is "but that's not political/allegorical/symbolic"
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 04:13 |
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ImpAtom posted:reduces the burden of evidence
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 07:33 |
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did superman shoot that guy?
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 10:18 |
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Kelp Plankton posted:did superman shoot that guy? Snowman_McK posted:Seriously, stop talking to Baron Bifford. His entire gimmick is "but that's not political/allegorical/symbolic" Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Nov 17, 2015 |
# ? Nov 17, 2015 10:36 |
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Arglebargle III posted:Is this movie still not out or is it okay to hate it yet? We've got another 4 months of this conversation to go!
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 13:22 |
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Kelp Plankton posted:did superman shoot that guy? Knowing comics, Superman fired the gun, and the next panel was him catching the bullet and holding it in his fingertips a centimeter away from the guy.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 16:36 |
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Drifter posted:Knowing comics, Superman fired the gun, and the next panel was him catching the bullet and holding it in his fingertips a centimeter away from the guy. Well done! Here's your No-Prize.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 16:49 |
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Drifter posted:Knowing comics, Superman fired the gun, and the next panel was him catching the bullet and holding it in his fingertips a centimeter away from the guy.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 17:12 |
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That guy is going to suffer permanent hearing loss
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 17:24 |
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It's nice to see Superman pay attention to real crimes and social issues. This doesn't happen often in his books.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 17:24 |
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MOD CHALLENGE TIME BARON BIFFORD. Sometimes, a cigar is not just a cigar. Through a number of threads, you've shown that you have an inability to acknowledge the subtext of various movies and comics. You often derail threads for multiple pages while others try to explain what they mean when they are talking about the specific subtext you are arguing against. I think it's time for that to change. I want you on the other side of the argument, this time. THE CHALLENGE: There are many movies that comes out with subtext so close to the surface that it may as well be called text. Even a child would be able to pick up on the themes and allegories in these films. Your mod challenge revolves around one of these films. The perennial example... Alien. The story of the mining crew aboard the ship Nostromo whose lives are shaken when they discover an alien lifeform while responding to a foreign distress call. Alien is a classic thriller, and arguably one of the most well made films of all time. The piece of art Necronom IV (above), by designer H.R. Giger served as the design of the eponymous Alien, and Giger helped design and develop many of the other creatures and sets featured in the film. Which leads to the challenge.
A few notes:
Now, I know what some of you are thinking. "Alien? That movie is way too obvious in its themes. The essay practically writes itself!" You're absolutely correct. This will be a very easy essay to write. So... SUB-CHALLENGE, OPEN TO ALL If you think Baron Bifford might be getting a free pass at this, you can help decide his fate.
The applicable notes above apply to this essay as well, with one exception.
Good luck to all! GonSmithe fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Nov 17, 2015 |
# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:25 |
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Good Lord.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:29 |
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I was about to reply that this long anticipated thread I have been looking forward too has quickly become one of the worst on SA right now. GonSmithe has just gone and made everything alright in the world once more.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:31 |
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Might as well ban him now
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:33 |
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MacheteZombie posted:Might as well ban him now And miss out on the fun?
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:34 |
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GonSmithe posted:
The examples you give are both sexual subtexts, and Baron's essay is mandated as being about sexual subtext. Does my Happy Madison essay need to be about sexual subtext too?
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:36 |
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I made a casual remark that some other goons took way too seriously and now everybody's angry because they're still butthurt over a similar debate that happened three years ago. Oh well, I suppose I have no choice.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:37 |
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Jenny Angel posted:Does my Happy Madison essay need to be about sexual subtext too? I loving hope not, that's not something anyone should ever have to think about.
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:37 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 21:23 |
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Baron Bifford posted:I made a casual remark that some other goons took way too seriously and now everybody's angry because they're still butthurt over a similar debate that happened three years ago. Oh well, I suppose I have no choice. You always have a choice son, don't let anyone ever tell you any different
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# ? Nov 17, 2015 18:38 |