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1500
Nov 3, 2015

Give me all your crackers

Octopode posted:

Even if this particular map isn't the same size as Elite's systems, the underlying system has the capability to be exactly the same size, as they're both using the same spatial positioning precision. The actual size of each is a design decision at this point.

Actually ED is 128-bit SIMD, and its maps are much larger then AC 2.0.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5902&page=45&p=564346#post564346

quote:

Added to that - regardless of 64 or 32 bit compilation, all the heavy vector maths work is done in 128-bit SIMD, so you get good performance on 2D vectors at either precision, and good performance on 3D and 4D vectors only at 32-bit.
32-bit floating point can actually break down pretty badly if you have a big play area (ie a couple of km at human scales), but only if you use it naïvely and don't recentre things.

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Hefty Leftist
Jun 26, 2011

"You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."


i'm watching one of those livestreams and it's crashed to desktop about 3 times in the space of 5 minutes, with most of those being during load times of the actual game itself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVw5mnRI8Zw

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

trucutru posted:

Well, yes. And the combat and exploration has the capability of being as good as Elite's. And they could certainly implement planet landings like Elite. And it would only take them like three times the time and resources to do so.


edit: wait! I'll just buy Elite!

There's a big difference between "they could spend time and energy implementing this if they wanted to" and "this capability exists in the game, right now, and could be used."

The capability of having maps of equal size with Elite (or any other multiplayer game out there) is currently extant in the game--it would not require any additional engine changes to have a system the same size as Elite's, only for a map designer to make a map with boundaries that wide.

Edit: Not actually true for Elite, I was mistaken and they went with 128-bit spatial precision rather than 64-bit.

Octopode fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Nov 20, 2015

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

1500 posted:

Actually ED is 128-bit SIMD, and its maps are much larger then AC 2.0.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5902&page=45&p=564346#post564346

Ah, my mistake, I was under the impression they only went to 64-bit.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008

Octopode posted:

There's a big difference between "they could spend time and energy implementing this if they wanted to" and "this capability exists in the game, right now, and could be used."

The capability of having maps of equal size with Elite (or any other multiplayer game out there) is currently extant in the game--it would not require any additional engine changes to have a system the same size as Elite's, only for a map designer to make a map with boundaries that wide.

Yeah man, all you need to do to make a map bigger is just grab the corner and drag the borders out!

Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.

Loiosh posted:

I think I've explained my reasoning well in the past over multiple posts. You can find the big post here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=309&perpage=40#post452516218

You probably don't care about that though and just want my feelings on E:D releasing and SC still being in progress. E:D is a more limited experience and of little interest to me. In that post you can see how the things that interest me are deep simulation systems. I did not fund the original kickstarter for SC because it was too limited in scope. I wanted to play a space sim with the depth of FSX. SC is not there yet (and according to most here, will never get there), E:D is not that game.

What you see as failure, I see as an alpha. I have not mentioned this, but I have pre-alpha tested Ultima Online, I beta tested EQ, was in Phase 3 of World of WarCraft beta. I've done beta testing for APB, Tabula Rasa (FPS mmo), Star Trek: Online and Champions Online, and a few others I don't recall (Age of Conan).

So I've seen what these things look like in alpha, in prealpha and in beta. I remember getting loot locked in World of Warcraft, falling outside of the world in Tel'drassil. I remember UO being completely unable to update damage, though I missed seeing Richard getting killed :D. I remember in STO when you'd spawn in as your player out in space and couldn't move because the model swap hadn't happened. I can remember testing CO and telling Cryptic their game was -entirely- unready for launch and lacked any content.

I still remember out of memory crashes in Age of Conan that wasn't fixed for months after launch (because the entire dev team took 2 months off after shipping it!)

I'm kinda used to jank like this. It's not really that surprising to me. If they don't fix it in December, if I cannot get in my Connie and fly around doing stupid poo poo, I'll be concerned. But seeing this, it's an alpha. What'll be telling is seeing how well they clean it up.

Yeah, but do you think it's acceptable and a good sign that this is where they're at after this much time and money?

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

ThePutty posted:

i'm watching one of those livestreams and it's crashed to desktop about 3 times in the space of 5 minutes, with most of those being during load times of the actual game itself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVw5mnRI8Zw

One of my friends is apparently stream channel-surfing on people streaming 2.0.

He's finding streamers running into crashes every five or so minutes :lol:

Hefty Leftist
Jun 26, 2011

"You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."


why do these people give such a poo poo about a dumb spaceman game anyway, it's just a loving video game

Raskolnikov
Nov 25, 2003

OWLS! posted:

I also have the potential to be the next Steve Jobs. You have the potential to be the next Ghandi.


1500
Nov 3, 2015

Give me all your crackers

Loiosh posted:

I think I've explained my reasoning well in the past over multiple posts. You can find the big post here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=309&perpage=40#post452516218

You probably don't care about that though and just want my feelings on E:D releasing and SC still being in progress. E:D is a more limited experience and of little interest to me. In that post you can see how the things that interest me are deep simulation systems. I did not fund the original kickstarter for SC because it was too limited in scope. I wanted to play a space sim with the depth of FSX. SC is not there yet (and according to most here, will never get there), E:D is not that game.

What you see as failure, I see as an alpha. I have not mentioned this, but I have pre-alpha tested Ultima Online, I beta tested EQ, was in Phase 3 of World of WarCraft beta. I've done beta testing for APB, Tabula Rasa (FPS mmo), Star Trek: Online and Champions Online, and a few others I don't recall (Age of Conan).

So I've seen what these things look like in alpha, in prealpha and in beta. I remember getting loot locked in World of Warcraft, falling outside of the world in Tel'drassil. I remember UO being completely unable to update damage, though I missed seeing Richard getting killed :D. I remember in STO when you'd spawn in as your player out in space and couldn't move because the model swap hadn't happened. I can remember testing CO and telling Cryptic their game was -entirely- unready for launch and lacked any content.

I still remember out of memory crashes in Age of Conan that wasn't fixed for months after launch (because the entire dev team took 2 months off after shipping it!)

I'm kinda used to jank like this. It's not really that surprising to me. If they don't fix it in December, if I cannot get in my Connie and fly around doing stupid poo poo, I'll be concerned. But seeing this, it's an alpha. What'll be telling is seeing how well they clean it up.

Perhaps I am missing something, but ED is an actual deep simulation system. Its simulating how planets are formed, how systems will form, how tectonic plats move.

SC is as shallow and fake as you can get, its fake physics, fake animations, fake ships, fake worlds, and shallow gameplay. I mean sure if your idea of deep simulation is mini games then SC is the way to go. But everything CR has stated indicates its all flash and no substance.

The rest of what you said, is just you remembering things from the past and projecting them onto SC with out any foundation.

1500 fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Nov 20, 2015

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

Rudager posted:

Yeah man, all you need to do to make a map bigger is just grab the corner and drag the borders out!

When all you're talking about is literal empty space, yes, that is correct.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

ED's got a lot of really interesting stuff running under the hood that SC can't hope to replicate because unlike SC, Elite was built from the ground up with a clear design goal involving all that procedural sim stuff. It's just that they've been lacking in content to really let people do stuff with the tech, but obviously this is changing as the devs work to add content.

People have repeatedly made goofus and gallant comparisons between SC and ED and they're all completely correct.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

Google Butt posted:

Yeah, but do you think it's acceptable and a good sign that this is where they're at after this much time and money?

3 years of full term development for a game like this? It's pretty normal. I mean, I've posted developer times in the past, though Beer has a better list. For an ambitious game I expected around a 5 year cycle before the release, and around $100 million.

Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3. You really start counting when the primary engineer team is there. For a game like Fallout, that happened after the Skyrim engine team wrapped and began to work on the new features (4 years ago, they started on the deferred renderer update for Gamebyro for FO4).

So, here we are, 2012-2015, you're seeing a game in progress over 3 years. For an ambitious deep sim, I expect around 5 years before delivery. I projected the costs at $100 in 2011, I've linked that post a few times.

This is about what I expected, though I'd really like to get in a Connie :) I'm happy to wait until it's more stable though. Though I do like testing, I'd prefer to just have fun.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Gosh I hope matticus manages to get to his cockpit without crashing or falling through the floor of his ship

Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012

Loiosh posted:

(I could live without this guy's music though).

I usually listen to my own music and mute the streamer. Except LethalFrag, because he's like the Bob Ross of gaming.

Hey at least we can agree on one thing, if not anything to do with this dumpster fire that is SC

LethalFrag is pretty great, been watching him on and off for almost 4 years I think, or whenever he started his first 2 year challenge

Nostalgia4Infinity
Feb 27, 2007

10,000 YEARS WASN'T ENOUGH LURKING

Loiosh posted:

3 years of full term development for a game like this? It's pretty normal. I mean, I've posted developer times in the past, though Beer has a better list. For an ambitious game I expected around a 5 year cycle before the release, and around $100 million.

Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3. You really start counting when the primary engineer team is there. For a game like Fallout, that happened after the Skyrim engine team wrapped and began to work on the new features (4 years ago, they started on the deferred renderer update for Gamebyro for FO4).

So, here we are, 2012-2015, you're seeing a game in progress over 3 years. For an ambitious deep sim, I expect around 5 years before delivery. I projected the costs at $100 in 2011, I've linked that post a few times.

This is about what I expected, though I'd really like to get in a Connie :) I'm happy to wait until it's more stable though. Though I do like testing, I'd prefer to just have fun.

I must have missed the part where Bethesda massively underestimated release dates and sold jpgs of power armor for two grand.

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Octopode posted:

There's a big difference between "they could spend time and energy implementing this if they wanted to" and "this capability exists in the game, right now, and could be used."

The capability of having maps of equal size with Elite (or any other multiplayer game out there) is currently extant in the game--it would not require any additional engine changes to have a system the same size as Elite's, only for a map designer to make a map with boundaries that wide.

Edit: Not actually true for Elite, I was mistaken and they went with 128-bit spatial precision rather than 64-bit.

Yes, the difference is like the one between me having the capability of winning a nobel prize and a nobel prize laureate. Maybe my research will be even better, only time can tell.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

T.G. Xarbala posted:

Gosh I hope matticus manages to get to his cockpit without crashing or falling through the floor of his ship

NOPE

poor guy (lol)

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Loiosh posted:

You probably don't care about that though and just want my feelings on E:D releasing and SC still being in progress. E:D is a more limited experience and of little interest to me.

E:D is a more limited experience because they aren't trying to add every mundane space-job into a video game that I would play while away from my real job. E:D is a more limited experience because they decided "Holy poo poo, people want a game first and a finished product second, let's get a game out and then add features once the core is done."

1500
Nov 3, 2015

Give me all your crackers

Loiosh posted:

3 years of full term development for a game like this? It's pretty normal. I mean, I've posted developer times in the past, though Beer has a better list. For an ambitious game I expected around a 5 year cycle before the release, and around $100 million.

Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3. You really start counting when the primary engineer team is there. For a game like Fallout, that happened after the Skyrim engine team wrapped and began to work on the new features (4 years ago, they started on the deferred renderer update for Gamebyro for FO4).

So, here we are, 2012-2015, you're seeing a game in progress over 3 years. For an ambitious deep sim, I expect around 5 years before delivery. I projected the costs at $100 in 2011, I've linked that post a few times.

This is about what I expected, though I'd really like to get in a Connie :) I'm happy to wait until it's more stable though. Though I do like testing, I'd prefer to just have fun.

Actually real development started 1 year before the kickstarter for SC. CR stated that the release of SC at the end of 2014 would be a total of 3 years of development.

https://www.themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts

quote:

You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?

Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx

T.G. Xarbala posted:

Gosh I hope matticus manages to get to his cockpit without crashing or falling through the floor of his ship

I'm curious about what happens when he figures out the FPS won't work, he seems pretty excited about finding it.

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Nostalgia4Infinity posted:

I must have missed the part where Bethesda massively underestimated release dates and sold jpgs of power armor for two grand.

Yeah, you missed it. My $599 hello kitty power armor is sweet as gently caress.

Loiosh posted:

3 years of full term development for a game like this? It's pretty normal. I mean, I've posted developer times in the past, though Beer has a better list. For an ambitious game I expected around a 5 year cycle before the release, and around $100 million.


Is there anything that could make you say "holy poo poo! these guys are incompetent clowns!"

Because incompetent clowns do exist.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

1500 posted:

Perhaps I am missing something, but ED is an actual deep simulation system. Its simulating how planets are formed, how systems will form, how tectonic plats move.

SC is as shallow and fake as you can get, its fake physics, fake animations, fake ships, fake worlds, and shallow gameplay. I mean sure if your idea of deep simulation is mini games then SC is the way to go. But everything CR has stated indicates its all flash and no substance.

The rest of what you said, is just you remembering things from the past and projecting them onto SC with out any foundation.

When I say simulations, I mean deep ship simulations. in E:D, you have a simplified power measurement, and some basic systems like mining (shoot laser at thing until little ore pods pop out), and trading. I like things like this: http://precisionmanuals.com/pages/product/FSX/777LRF.html - If my toy comes with an 80 page manual that has a 2 page start up guide, that's the kind of deep simulation I like. Things like CPU usage, coolant needs, electrical wiring, and the physical location of every component being modeled in game and simulated is the kind of detail I like. E:D is neat, and it has basic cpu/coolant and power systems, kinda like X-Wing did, but that's about the extent of it. We've actually already seen an example of the depth of the SC system, in the Gamescom demo the recovered Retaliator had the avionics CPU destroyed when the shield failed. It was unable to fly until that unit was repaired (repair system not in the Gamescom build).

That's the kind of thing that interests me. It puts me well outside the scope of other people's interests, and I recognize that, but that's why E:D is not that compelling. Being a space trucker of cargo and doing simple combat over and over again is not gameplay that I like.

If you're really curious, look up FS2Crew for an example of exactly the kind of thing I'm interested in. It's a CRM simulator to add on top of PMDG airplanes (CRM = Crew Resource Management), where you deal with the needs of passengers, emergencies, and handling the crew in a crisis.

That was probably a lot more reply than needed, so forgive me :)

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

trucutru posted:

Yeah, you missed it. My $599 hello kitty power armor is sweet as gently caress.

Did you get the sweet Ford Transit van with the kickass livery on the side?

Nostalgia4Infinity
Feb 27, 2007

10,000 YEARS WASN'T ENOUGH LURKING

trucutru posted:

Yeah, you missed it. My $599 hello kitty power armor is sweet as gently caress.

It's okay. They sure had egg on their face when they said Fallout 4 was going to be out by the end of 2011 but they got there eventually.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

Jobbo_Fett posted:

E:D is a more limited experience because they aren't trying to add every mundane space-job into a video game that I would play while away from my real job. E:D is a more limited experience because they decided "Holy poo poo, people want a game first and a finished product second, let's get a game out and then add features once the core is done."

I'm well aware of this. But that's not what I'm looking for, right? That's what I've tried to explain, and then explain my reasons why I am interested in the things I am. I understand it's not the norm.

But it's why I'm interested in the project I'm interested in. It's why I like Enemy Starfighter and SC's potential.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy

Loiosh posted:

When I say simulations, I mean deep ship simulations. in E:D, you have a simplified power measurement, and some basic systems like mining (shoot laser at thing until little ore pods pop out), and trading. I like things like this: http://precisionmanuals.com/pages/product/FSX/777LRF.html - If my toy comes with an 80 page manual that has a 2 page start up guide, that's the kind of deep simulation I like. Things like CPU usage, coolant needs, electrical wiring, and the physical location of every component being modeled in game and simulated is the kind of detail I like. E:D is neat, and it has basic cpu/coolant and power systems, kinda like X-Wing did, but that's about the extent of it. We've actually already seen an example of the depth of the SC system, in the Gamescom demo the recovered Retaliator had the avionics CPU destroyed when the shield failed. It was unable to fly until that unit was repaired (repair system not in the Gamescom build).
I know a game that does all of this....

http://store.steampowered.com/app/345580/

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

I haven't bought into either, but Elite is underwhelming because they worked on getting a functioning game first and that's acting as a framework for the content they're adding to it.

SC is underwhelming in a different way, in that they frontload their sales pitch with a lot of pie-in-the-sky dreams and sell ships while they're still in the concept art stage because they haven't bothered getting a functional game out first to stick everything into.

People who are optimistic about Elite Dangerous but skeptical about Star Citizen can see that the latter has clearly put the cart before the horse in an attempt to get nerds to part with thousands of dollars for nothing but a promise and a picture, while the former is being made by a developer that's open about their development process and have been shown to put the work in.

1500
Nov 3, 2015

Give me all your crackers

Loiosh posted:

When I say simulations, I mean deep ship simulations. in E:D, you have a simplified power measurement, and some basic systems like mining (shoot laser at thing until little ore pods pop out), and trading. I like things like this: http://precisionmanuals.com/pages/product/FSX/777LRF.html - If my toy comes with an 80 page manual that has a 2 page start up guide, that's the kind of deep simulation I like. Things like CPU usage, coolant needs, electrical wiring, and the physical location of every component being modeled in game and simulated is the kind of detail I like. E:D is neat, and it has basic cpu/coolant and power systems, kinda like X-Wing did, but that's about the extent of it. We've actually already seen an example of the depth of the SC system, in the Gamescom demo the recovered Retaliator had the avionics CPU destroyed when the shield failed. It was unable to fly until that unit was repaired (repair system not in the Gamescom build).

That's the kind of thing that interests me. It puts me well outside the scope of other people's interests, and I recognize that, but that's why E:D is not that compelling. Being a space trucker of cargo and doing simple combat over and over again is not gameplay that I like.

If you're really curious, look up FS2Crew for an example of exactly the kind of thing I'm interested in. It's a CRM simulator to add on top of PMDG airplanes (CRM = Crew Resource Management), where you deal with the needs of passengers, emergencies, and handling the crew in a crisis.

That was probably a lot more reply than needed, so forgive me :)

That is not a deep system, that is a script that says, item==1 then do fly

That is not deep, nothing CIG have done has shown any deep gameplay or deep systems. We can hope they show up at some point, but so far CIG seem very interested in mini games.

You know that ED is getting multicrew (in some kind of form) as well right?

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

1500 posted:

Actually real development started 1 year before the kickstarter for SC. CR stated that the release of SC at the end of 2014 would be a total of 3 years of development.

https://www.themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts

You know, in my own quote I did directly address that, right? About 2011. Here's the quote Basically I’ve been working with a small team over the course of the past year to get the early prototyping and production done.

Here's what I said: Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3.

That's my opinion, you're welcome to disagree with it, but you're not going to impress me by posting something I'm already well aware of and directly addressed in my own post, right? :)

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

1500 posted:

That is not a deep system, that is a script that says, item==1 then do fly

That is not deep, nothing CIG have done has shown any deep gameplay or deep systems. We can hope they show up at some point, but so far CIG seem very interested in mini games.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this point. That's the stuff I'm interested in, and what I've seen has been demonstration of progress on it. So I'll agree to disagree with your perspective.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

A Neurotic Jew posted:

I'm curious about what happens when he figures out the FPS won't work, he seems pretty excited about finding it.

Oh my god he actually got to his ship's cockpit. Matticus sounds so relieved.

EDIT: Nope, wait, crash. I guess he's logging off for the night.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

trucutru posted:

Is there anything that could make you say "holy poo poo! these guys are incompetent clowns!"

Because incompetent clowns do exist.

I posted that a few pages back. If they failed to get 2.0 out by the middle of december. If I cannot play a Connie by then and have my friend join me, that's when I'll be done with SC. If they hit that delivery, then I'll be happy with the progress. I have a different perspective from the zeitgeist here, which is why my perspective is confusing.

Also, I need to head to bed!

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Loiosh posted:

I guess we'll have to disagree on this point. That's the stuff I'm interested in, and what I've seen has been demonstration of progress on it. So I'll agree to disagree with your perspective.

I can see why you're interested in it, and back when there was a lot of goodwill towards CIG I think a lot of goons felt similarly.

At this point, though, I think most of those hopes had long been soured.

1500
Nov 3, 2015

Give me all your crackers

Loiosh posted:

You know, in my own quote I did directly address that, right? About 2011. Here's the quote Basically I’ve been working with a small team over the course of the past year to get the early prototyping and production done.

Here's what I said: Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3.

That's my opinion, you're welcome to disagree with it, but you're not going to impress me by posting something I'm already well aware of and directly addressed in my own post, right? :)

You then followed it up by saying 3 years of development. So you are saying that a working Demo and 1 million spent in that year is preproduction? Wow, so you might as well discount the year after the kickstarter as well, as less was produced. Hey look at that SC has only been in development for 2 years, they really are not that far behind.


Considering CR counted that year as part of development, I think its safe to assume that it was actual development. But you can stretch preproduction to as long as you want if that makes you feel better.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Loiosh posted:

Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3. You really start counting when the primary engineer team is there. For a game like Fallout, that happened after the Skyrim engine team wrapped and began to work on the new features (4 years ago, they started on the deferred renderer update for Gamebyro for FO4).

So, here we are, 2012-2015, you're seeing a game in progress over 3 years. For an ambitious deep sim, I expect around 5 years before delivery. I projected the costs at $100 in 2011, I've linked that post a few times.

While that would normally make sense, the thing about the 2011 date that conflicts with that logic is that it was used in the original pitch as an argument why the proposed budget and timeline was realistic: because they already had a year of work behind them. Sure, it was probably repackaged BS — they were trying to sell the prepro as something it wasn't — and it was mentioned rather off-hand as well. And sure, it probably wasn't accurate anyway since we're all heard the stories about CR trying to get the project going for longer than that, and given his absolute and complete lack of anything resembling time management skills it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference in the end.

Even so, if they want to count it as regular prepro, it wasn't a valid argument for the viability of the project; if they don't, then we are four years in, not three. Either way, CIG's own narrative is inconsistent.

Loiosh posted:

You know, in my own quote I did directly address that, right? About 2011. Here's the quote Basically I’ve been working with a small team over the course of the past year to get the early prototyping and production done.

Here's what I said: Let me be clear since people like bringing up it started in 2011. Generally, preproduction work doesn't count for developer times. We're not agreeing that Fallout 4 took 7 years because a small team worked on it right after FO3.

But again, that just means you get to pick and choose what kind of BS they're trying to feed the backers — either way, they were feeding people pigswill.

Tippis fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Nov 20, 2015

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

T.G. Xarbala posted:

People who are optimistic about Elite Dangerous but skeptical about Star Citizen can see that the latter has clearly put the cart before the horse in an attempt to get nerds to part with thousands of dollars for nothing but a promise and a picture, while the former is being made by a developer that's open about their development process and have been shown to put the work in.

That has nothing to do with optimism. E:D is a game, SC is not. E:D has keep its promises, release dates, etc. SC has kept none.

Also, there is a point when you cross the line from being an optimist into a being willingly obtuse, and it is really difficult to notice it by yourself.

Loiosh posted:

I posted that a few pages back. If they failed to get 2.0 out by the middle of december. If I cannot play a Connie by then and have my friend join me, that's when I'll be done with SC. If they hit that delivery, then I'll be happy with the progress. I have a different perspective from the zeitgeist here, which is why my perspective is confusing.

Also, I need to head to bed!

But they could just stamp 2.0 into whatever incomplete poo poo they have that crashes when your friend joins and that would satisfy your requirements, yeah?

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

T.G. Xarbala posted:

I can see why you're interested in it, and back when there was a lot of goodwill towards CIG I think a lot of goons felt similarly.

At this point, though, I think most of those hopes had long been soured.

Oh yeah, I know :) I don't think anyone's perspective is incorrect, I just disagree from my own perspective. However I do really need to get to bed, so I'll wish you all well! Good night

OWLS!
Sep 17, 2009

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
I got your deep space simulator right here.

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trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Loiosh posted:

I guess we'll have to disagree on this point. That's the stuff I'm interested in, and what I've seen has been demonstration of progress on it. So I'll agree to disagree with your perspective.

Do you own steel battalion? I think you would enjoy it.

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