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Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

BrianWilly posted:

Y'all weirdos are aware that the plea deal Hope got offered, the one that got her "only" twenty years in prison if she confessed to murdering her own parents, was a last minute cheap ploy by the DA, right? Before that point, Hope was going to spend her entire life in jail if Jessica couldn't prove Kilgrave's existence. But oh yea sure, Jessica should just kill him. Good plan.

And by the time Hope got offered the deal, Jessica already had Kilgrave captured and had worked out a perfectly sensible plan to expose him. It would have worked if Hogarth wasn't stupid. And even then, it still would have worked if your glorious idol Nuke hadn't destroyed the evidence for literally no reason.

He had a reason. That reason being him wanting and having to be right no matter what and knowing what's best even though it was already under control.

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Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer

The Sharmat posted:

Am I the only one that loved every minute of the Hogarth's divorce sub plot?

Nah, I liked it too.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Snak posted:

Nah, I liked it too.

:shrug: I liked it, but it wasn't anywhere near my favorite element. Almost everyone else was more interesting to me. (that's not an insult, this show had a really great cast, and Moss and Weigert did very well with what they were given) But then, I don't have a lot of life experience with the queer urban professional scene. I'm sure that plot resonates much more with a different crowd.

Also, as others have said, Jeri's plot fit really well thematically, but didn't contribute that much to the narrative in the end, so I understand why people feel like it was a waste. If Jeri never shows up again, that'll be a valid criticism. If they were using this opportunity to build up an interesting character for Iron Fist, though, then that explains why her story hasn't paid off yet, and I'll be able to forgive them for it.

XboxPants fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 28, 2015

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo

The Sharmat posted:

Am I the only one that loved every minute of the Hogarth's divorce sub plot?

I hated all of it and especially how it ended since there was literally no reason for them to have ended up at the doctor's house since Kilgrave said "Take me to a doctor you trust" and there was an entirely wasted subplot devoted to how little Hogarth trusted her ex.

I was momentarily thinking that whole subplot would have a payoff when they talked about Kilgrave's parent's being alive. "Finally, the wife will end up being Kilgrave's mom and we get all that dirt and this will all serve a purpose!", but alas.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Given the parallels between Hogarth and Kilgrave (self-absorbed, forever convinced they're right or even feeling themselves to be the victims) I had kind of hoped for a moment of catharsis where she realized that yes she absolutely was the bad guy in the divorce, and that Wendy was a truly good person. When Kilgrave told Wendy "If you want her death by 1000 cuts, take it now" I had kind of hoped Wendy wouldn't do it because the way Kilgrave worded it left enough wriggle room to decide not to do it. Making Hogarth come face to face with the reality that she was the bad guy, that Wendy was the victim (and a genuinely good person), and that she was just making things worse by trying to control the divorce would I think have been a stronger ending to that subplot, and would have validated somewhat Hogarth's decision to use her legal prowess to help Jessica in the end.

Soothing Vapors
Mar 26, 2006

Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

The Sharmat posted:

Am I the only one that loved every minute of the Hogarth's divorce sub plot?

Please don't troll

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

Azhais posted:

I hated all of it and especially how it ended since there was literally no reason for them to have ended up at the doctor's house since Kilgrave said "Take me to a doctor you trust" and there was an entirely wasted subplot devoted to how little Hogarth trusted her ex.

Seriously? It was so Kilgrave could force her to sign the divorce papers.

BSam
Nov 24, 2012

zoux posted:

Seriously? It was so Kilgrave could force her to sign the divorce papers.

Nah, even Kilgrave commented on when he said "A doctor you trust" she took him to her ex's/

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
I took it that no matter how much Hogarth hated her ex, she still trusted her as a doctor.

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand
And it's not like Hogarth's ex is untrustworthy, even if she hates her.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax

Azhais posted:

and there was an entirely wasted subplot devoted to how little Hogarth trusted her ex.

That wasn't the subplot.

BarbarousBertha
Aug 2, 2007

I loved the Hogarth subplot both as a means for exploring the nonpowered person's methods for living life as a manipulative piece of poo poo and as a realistic look at an acrimonious breakup. All three actresses were phenomenal in their roles (though I did have a perverse urge for Wendy to start calling everyone a cocksucker before she got caught between a tchotchke and a hard place). No, I am not an urban professional lesbian.

Daredevil was amazing to look at and then I kept falling asleep. Never bothered to finish it. Rosario Dawson is an awful actress and also thinks that "warriess" is a word and the feminine form of warrior.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax

Soothing Vapors posted:

Please don't troll

Nelson vs. Murdock is also my least favorite episode of Daredevil.

BarbarousBertha posted:

Rosario Dawson is an awful actress and also thinks that "warriess" is a word and the feminine form of warrior.

What

BarbarousBertha posted:

and also thinks that "warriess" is a word and the feminine form of warrior.

:psyduck:

Poor Miserable Gurgi
Dec 29, 2006

He's a wisecracker!
Hogarth going to Wendy's was supposed to show she did still trust her, and was lying to everyone and herself when poo poo talking her. Kilgrave's order forced her to face that she was being selfish with the divorce and that she was in fact the bad guy in that. Even if you dislike the subplot, it's a pretty good end to it that at least doesn't hit you over the head with the lesson.

BarbarousBertha
Aug 2, 2007

^^^ Exactly, and Wendy loved Hogarth for being nice to her even while being a bastard to everyone else while Pam loved Hogarth for being so excellent at being a bastard. Hogarth just felt relieved at being in a relationship without having to pretend to be nice for any length of time. The themes all match up with different facets of Jessica's story and even Trish's.

This was easier to find than I thought, so here you go. Yes, it's silly to pick on it, but it became a joke at our house so it stuck in my consciousness to an uncomfortable degree. https://youtu.be/LOtty8IKlcQ?t=6m26s

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax

Practical Demon posted:

that at least doesn't hit you over the head with the lesson.

Joke about goons being dense goes here.

Poor Miserable Gurgi
Dec 29, 2006

He's a wisecracker!

The Sharmat posted:

Joke about goons being dense goes here.

Follow-up joke about needing a vase and a coffee table.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK
I think the Hogarth divorce plot is suffering from the same thing the Simpson as a super soldier plot is with viewers. The show clearly could have been cut by a few episodes and since those things don't directly tie into the plot for the most part, they're near the top of things to cut in viewers heads. Right along with the Weirdo Twins. Killgrave plot would probably be up there normally, but almost everyone likes Killgrave as a villain and weren't tired of him.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

BarbarousBertha posted:

(though I did have a perverse urge for Wendy to start calling everyone a cocksucker before she got caught between a tchotchke and a hard place).

Oh my God that was Calamity Jane :aaa:

I knew she looked familiar :doh:

TARDISman
Oct 28, 2011



So... Watching episode 2 and Kilgrave... :stare:

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

TARDISman posted:

and Kilgrave... :stare:

That's your summary of the show right there.

Sir Potato
May 26, 2012

PO-TAY-TOES
Boil 'em, mash 'em, cook 'em in a stew
So I didn't know anything whatsoever about JJ before coming into this and I was really into Kilgrave. I probably know even less about Luke Cage so who would be possible season-long villains for him? I'm looking at his enemies list on Wikipedia but I can't see a single name on there I recognize besides the Purple Man. I'm curious about who would give Luke a difficult time of things, since he just has super strength and unbreakable skin, and would be interesting enough to last a full season.

Soothing Vapors
Mar 26, 2006

Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

Sir Potato posted:

I probably know even less about Luke Cage so who would be possible season-long villains for him?
If Luke Cage isn't about his 13 episode quest to recover his $200 from Dr. Doom I don't even know what the loving point is

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo

Soothing Vapors posted:

If Luke Cage isn't about his 13 episode quest to recover his $200 from Dr. Doom I don't even know what the loving point is

Andrew_1985
Sep 18, 2007
Hay hay hay!
Finished JJ and I have to say I enjoyed it for different reasons to Daredevil. I enjoyed the expanded cast of JJ and that they were given opportunities to shine. I felt that with DD it was a tighter story, but Foggy/Karen didn't get to do too much. JJ did a lot more worldbuilding and felt a fair bit more everyday, compared to the occassionally borderline Sin City DD.

I also loved the moments Rytter dipped back into her Gia/Apartment 23 personas. "Congratulations! You've won a XBox One!"

Do we know what Luke Cage stories they're going to adapt for his season? Has JJ done well enough to warrant a second season? Will we see these guys in the MCU?

Woden
May 6, 2006
One thing I preferred in the comic version that I have not read and am basing off of goon posts is that he also emotionally manipulated people with his power. The Stockholm Syndrome JJ seemed to suffer would have worked a lot better for me if he was forcing emotions on people more directly, it might have been there and I missed it because of marathoning it though.

I mean giving someone a compulsion to cut off your spouses face is pretty bad but forcing someone to love you is some next level poo poo.

Woden
May 6, 2006

Andrew_1985 posted:



Do we know what Luke Cage stories they're going to adapt for his season? Has JJ done well enough to warrant a second season? Will we see these guys in the MCU?

AFAIK they've still only optioned 60 episodes, so 26 for Daredevil(2 seasons), 13 JJ, probably 13 Cage and 8 for the ensemble makes the 60. So second a season for JJ, first for IF, 3rd for DD or 2nd for Cage will take some renegotiation.

Edit: oh and I really hope we see JJ for the Civil War, apparently part of all their contracts is that they need to make themselves available for the cinematic universe stuff, so fingers crossed.

Woden fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Nov 28, 2015

punchymcpunch
Oct 14, 2012



Woden posted:

One thing I preferred in the comic version that I have not read and am basing off of goon posts is that he also emotionally manipulated people with his power. The Stockholm Syndrome JJ seemed to suffer would have worked a lot better for me if he was forcing emotions on people more directly, it might have been there and I missed it because of marathoning it though.

I mean giving someone a compulsion to cut off your spouses face is pretty bad but forcing someone to love you is some next level poo poo.

Sometimes he made people want to do the stuff he asked them to, and sometimes he made them do it but not want to do it.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.
Daredevil S2 AFAIK is not part of the 60 episodes initially ordered. It was added after the fact.

Kal-L
Jan 18, 2005

Heh... Spider-man... Web searches... That's funny. I should've trademarked that one. Could've made a mint.

Snak posted:

Nah, I liked it too.

Jerusalem posted:

Given the parallels between Hogarth and Kilgrave (self-absorbed, forever convinced they're right or even feeling themselves to be the victims) I had kind of hoped for a moment of catharsis where she realized that yes she absolutely was the bad guy in the divorce, and that Wendy was a truly good person.

Just ended the series, and I gotta say it was great. I liked that most of the main characters were women, given the theme of abuse.

That said, I don't think that Wendy was the "good guy" in the divorce sub-plot. Sure, it sucks that Hogarth changed her for a younger, hotter woman, but she does admit that her blackmailing Hogarth for 75-90% of her money was just purely out of spite and to hurt her like she had been hurt.

I think it ties into what Robyn and Luke said about forgiveness, that by not forgiving someone means you're still holding into the damage that was done to you, and letting the person who wronged you still have some control over you, by not letting go of your grudge.

Soothing Vapors posted:

If Luke Cage isn't about his 13 episode quest to recover his $200 from Dr. Doom I don't even know what the loving point is

If the Jessica Jones series is any indication, Luke will face a guy who he can't just punch into paste, and be more of an indication of a larger problem.

I'm rooting for him taking on police abuse towards minorities.

punchymcpunch posted:

Sometimes he made people want to do the stuff he asked them to, and sometimes he made them do it but not want to do it.

I liked when he explained he can't turn off his powers and made me like him for a bit but then I remembered we saw him buy the house without using his powers so he knows how not to do it, it just turns out it's hard, and just using his power is easier.

His whole excuse for what he does in the end is victim blaming. Like "If you didn't want to get raped you wouldn't be walking at night with that tight dress", except it is more like "If you didn't want me to mind control you, you shouldn't show your superpowers in public/have a nice car/use a sweet jacket".

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.
To be fair having to consciously and constantly focus on wording things in a way where they can't be considered a command would be draining as all hell.

Kal-L
Jan 18, 2005

Heh... Spider-man... Web searches... That's funny. I should've trademarked that one. Could've made a mint.

Dexo posted:

To be fair having to consciously and constantly focus on wording things in a way where they can't be considered a command would be draining as all hell.

It wasn't wording, as much as actively using his power to do it. To be fair, having that power since he was 10 means that he had grown so accustomed to using it, to make his words have intention behind it so much that it was normal to him.

Like using your car to go to the corner store, there will come a point when you think it's easier to take it out of the garage and drive, instead of just walking there. Doesn't mean you're not a lazy gently caress for taking the easy way.

VocalizePlayerDeath
Jan 29, 2009

So much trouble could have been avoided if Jessica didn't refuse to use her laser eyes for absolutely no reason.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003

Sir Potato posted:

So I didn't know anything whatsoever about JJ before coming into this and I was really into Kilgrave. I probably know even less about Luke Cage so who would be possible season-long villains for him? I'm looking at his enemies list on Wikipedia but I can't see a single name on there I recognize besides the Purple Man. I'm curious about who would give Luke a difficult time of things, since he just has super strength and unbreakable skin, and would be interesting enough to last a full season.

I wonder if they could use Tombstone, normally a Spider-Man villain and adjust him for Luke Cage.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

VocalizePlayerDeath posted:

So much trouble could have been avoided if Jessica didn't refuse to use her laser eyes for absolutely no reason.

She's more like the real Superman than the lovely one from MoS IMO

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Dexo posted:

She's more like the real Superman than the lovely one from MoS IMO

I'm glad the "real" Superman also snaps people's necks.

punchymcpunch
Oct 14, 2012



The real Superman just throws people into his bottomless Arctic pit and lets them die down there or suffocates them with an unbreakable plastic bag.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Lipstick Apathy

Dexo posted:

She's more like the real Superman than the lovely one from MoS IMO

The real Superman almost drunkenly murders people by throwing them under subway trains.

computer parts posted:

I'm glad the "real" Superman also snaps people's necks.

:drat:

double negative
Jul 7, 2003


They've already cast the villains for Luke Cage. Alfre Woodard as Black Mariah and Mahershala Ali as Cottonmouth.

Neither of them are superhuman, I believe, but they'll both have a lot of influence and power in Harlem, so I'm hoping it'll be more about a struggle over the neighborhood in ways that expand on Daredevil. Given Luke's past and the villains they picked, I'd expect incarceration, the criminal justice system, and corruption to be prominent themes, but maybe that's just me hoping.

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Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

punchymcpunch posted:

Sometimes he made people want to do the stuff he asked them to, and sometimes he made them do it but not want to do it.

Yeah, sometimes he told people that they want to do something, other times he just told them to do it. Of course he could also just tell you to love him without telling you to want to. Or decide they like a new cuisine they'd previously hated. The careless way Killgrave tends to use his power combined with the victim's interpretation of commands leads to some really hosed up stuff happening in the victim's head.

I wonder how many people he's killed by having them sit down to meals full of things they're allergic to.

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