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AP posted:No that's true, but on the other hand he slipped up making that quoted post by putting himself in confrontation with the "people" of the thread and their generalised views. The thread is overly negative but not totally so, it's always been people posting whatever poo poo they want even back when the thread was almost entirely positive in 2013, I quoted my views as an example showing what he said wasn't true. ^this. All of it. That is all. As you were.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:26
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Bootcha posted:At this point, we hear a gently caress ton from Santa Monica, some poo poo from Austin, and very little poo poo from Manchester. And in terms of production, that's from least to most. You forgot Frankfurt?
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Nov 29, 2015 14:27
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redwalrus posted:
Yep I think the show is making fun of Fat Americans.... Don't the Japanese hunt whales?
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Nov 29, 2015 14:42
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is this real?
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Lochness_Hamster posted:Yep I think Ben can maybe save his bacon by giving them a line on the location of a whole lot more. The Judas Whale.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:44
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Lochness_Hamster posted:Ben is a Japanese Tv Star Ben's clearly struggling to digest that third pie from the all-you-can-poo poo buffet
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Nov 29, 2015 14:45
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D_Smart posted:You forgot Frankfurt? We hear so little because they do so much. We think.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:53
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D_Smart posted:You forgot Frankfurt? I don't think they exist in the logistical sense.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:04
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Berious posted:I think they'd pull a doublefine soon as the funding clearly dries up. Can't see Chris blowing his last ever big payday on fulfilling the Wulge's space dreams. They have already pulled a Double Fine. The game has been split into two parts with the hopes of getting the first part out 'early' to generate sales in order to pay for the second part.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:04
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How do we know the company burns through 3 million per month, by the way? I have no idea what people in the industry are getting paid though, and I assume most of the cash outflow is salaries.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:11
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hello derek have you read any good books lately?
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Nov 29, 2015 15:15
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Mangoose posted:How do we know the company burns through 3 million per month, by the way? I have no idea what people in the industry are getting paid though, and I assume most of the cash outflow is salaries. Cig pays below industry standard lol ofc and I think people just worked out the averages and gave a hi-low estimate with 3 being the lower one.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:22
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Mangoose posted:How do we know the company burns through 3 million per month, by the way? I have no idea what people in the industry are getting paid though, and I assume most of the cash outflow is salaries. Unless my math is wrong... 8 hours a day x 5 days a week x 4 weeks per month = 160 hours Random/Low payrate: 16$ x 300 employees = $4800 per hour for total employee pay 160 * 4800 = $768000 per month Now, we can guarantee that team leaders, Sandi/Chris, and others, will be paid more so you can bump that up. Then you have to factor in the 4 studios + mocap construction + furniture/office supplies + other expenditures. And taxes. I'm sure someone who knows the gaming industry's payrolls will correct me, but you're already past 3/4 of a million based solely on a low pay for 300 employees.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:22
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mormonpartyboat posted:hello derek have you read any good books lately? only books derek is interested in are CIGs
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Nov 29, 2015 15:25
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How many mocap studios can $100,000,000 get?
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Nov 29, 2015 15:25
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AP posted:
Here is what I said back on Nov 2nd. It's a long post, so these are the main points quote:
The key here is that I have yet to see anything they've done with CryEngine3 and which would be regarded as groundbreaking. Sure, they have a custom version of it since they need it to build this type of game. But nothing; not visuals, audio, animation or anything tells me they've done anything that trumps anything done before with any version of the CryEngine. And this coming from a software engineer who builds game engines - from the ground up. As to progress... Again, here's the thing. This whole year, what have they released? Well, let's see. 1) Arena Commander versions. Mostly broken. Still is. 2) Social Module first look. One location, ArCorp. Empty. Mostly broken. Still is. 3) PU 2.0 in which there is nothing persistent about it. Mostly broken. Granted, they did say this was the start of the PU; so I give them that. Is the above considered progress for a $95m (at the time 2.0 was released) game that's i) been 3-4 years in development ii) now one year past the promised Nov 2014 release date? Honestly, to me, yes, that's progress. However, it's all relative because when you show/release stuff that was never before shown/released, that's progress. I don't see progress in terms of the project moving forward. And as I've said before, by my analysis, even with the 2.0 pre-Alpha-Alpha release, they still haven't shown/delivered even 10% of what was promised. THAT SHOULD CONCERN PEOPLE There is absolutely no question in my mind that the engineers are working hard to make Chris's dreams come true. And there is no question in my mind that he really does want to see a game get made. The issue here is that, through what can only be described as sheer incompetence, arrogance, ego and everything in between, the project is out of scope, has cost way too much - and he's out of time and money. The money raised in Oct/Nov, the yearly peak periods for them, is, to my knowledge, barely enough to fund their burn rate for 2-3 months. We're talking four studios and almost 300 people worldwide. Once they get back down to the normal monthly income rates - which I expect to reach critical levels in 2016 - that's when I believe the wheels will start to come off because there is no way in hell they're going to take this game through 2016 and well into 2017, on $1m per month funding. Something's gotta give. Which, by the shoddy release of 2.0, tells me this was a desperate move to gain some credibility and make some money. It worked. But mostly for the whales. Tracking the number of "citizens" increase in the funding page, it's clear to see that very few new people are buying into the game. And even so, considering that the count includes people with several accounts, people with free accounts but who didn't buy anything etc, there is absolutely no question that the pre-existing whales are the ones still funding this project because they know that if they don't, that it will collapse. Not to mention the fact that they've already helped collapse the Grey market whereby several whales who buy and sell ships are now willing to take a loss on their inventory. And I've said it before, I'll say it again: back in Sept 2014 when Chris said that he had money to finish the game if funding stopped, I believe that he was lying. quote:Long ago I stopped looking at this game the way I did when I worked for a publisher who gave me a fixed budget to make a retail game. I now look at our monthly fundraising and use that to set the amount of resources being used to develop this game. We keep a healthy cash reserve so that if funding stopped tomorrow we would still be able to deliver Star Citizen (not quite to the current level of ambition, but well above what was planned in Oct 2012). If you combine our in-house staff and outsourced developers, we now number more than 280 people. Your support has created a significant number of jobs in the gaming industry. (And no matter what you might have heard, only a small number of our team is tasked with designing new ships!) The above would imply that, at the time he made that statement, $55m raised was enough to complete the game they promised and that he had 14 months (where we are today) of funding (around $40m depending on how you do the math) in reserves. Bear in mind that, 14 months later, they have yet to deliver even 10% of the game promised. As of now, I don't see a $100m game at this point; and I probably never will. And considering the fact that they are still raising money, as I've said before: quote:As far as this project is concerned, from my observation and experience, it is my opinion that if they ever ship a completed Star Citizen game, that is true to the “vision” they have been selling, it will be a game that could have been made in four years for $20m. To clear, I'm not the kind of guy who is arrogant enough whereby I would continue to deride them just because I want to be right. I never strive to be right; and that's what makes me who I am. I'm just that guy who loves what I do, loves this industry and continue to be amazed at the opportunities I have been granted through hard work. It's been rewarding. I have no qualms about being wrong about anything. But, in my mind, considering how many things I have pretty much predicted this far, there is still no question in my mind that this project is FUBAR. The end result is that one of these will play out: i) suffers a sudden catastrophic collapse ii) gets shoddily released and never gets finished or fixed Both scenarios will result in the loss of over $100m in backer money - and with zero financial accountability for how they blew through this money, how much really went into this project, how much was wasted etc.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:25
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Unless my math is wrong... You don't calculate hours that way, 4 weeks per month isn't accurate. Use 52x40. Also your salary estimation is horribly poo poo.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:27
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OhDearGodNo posted:You don't calculate hours that way, 4 weeks per month isn't accurate. I didn't say the pay was accurate, just ballparking a low number. (Which is most likely way too low). But it provides a basis that can only get bigger as you adjust for the larger pays of Chris and Co. (Using 52x40 on 16$x300employees you hit 10m)
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Nov 29, 2015 15:31
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Jobbo_Fett posted:I didn't say the pay was accurate, just ballparking a low number. (Which is most likely way too low). But it provides a basis that can only get bigger as you adjust for the larger pays of Chris and Co. 52*40=2040 2040/12=170 (rough hours per month) 170*20=3400 (lol at anybody in this shithole making 20bucks/hour) 3400*300= 1020000 At the very MINIMUM.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:32
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mormonpartyboat posted:hello derek have you read any good books lately? Actually yeah. I just finished my second reading of "About Time" by Paul Davies.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:34
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There are not 300 employees. I found this out by paying a soothsayer $900.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:34
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OWLS! posted:That's per year tho. Right. And that's only salary. I can't begin to imagine what the various studios cost. And we've already seen the  furniture
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Nov 29, 2015 15:34
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Unless my math is wrong... I have it on good authority (don't ask) that they're burning through around $3m per month now. They are trying to trim that; though it's not really working because what they save by closing Austin and down-sizing to a smaller location, laying people off etc is countered by the increased spending on the new Santa Monica location. ps: They still haven't acknowledged publicly that they are in fact closing the existing Austin studio and downsizing to a smaller location.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:36
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Mangoose posted:How do we know the company burns through 3 million per month, by the way? I have no idea what people in the industry are getting paid though, and I assume most of the cash outflow is salaries. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10bD_AckO6ItkogKCIlWuofAxyLeIizPvuLc8aNFMyGI/edit#gid=0 This is a good crapshoot. It's probably wrong in one degree or another. But it's a bit better than counting how many pieces of nickel plated furniture you see in CIG's vanity productions.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:39
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Right. And that's only salary. I can't begin to imagine what the various studios cost. And we've already seen the You can easily double that value to take into account facilities, rent, utilities, benefits, etc.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:40
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Dusty Lens posted:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10bD_AckO6ItkogKCIlWuofAxyLeIizPvuLc8aNFMyGI/edit#gid=0 Please disregard that nonsense. It's all the stuff pulled out of a horse's rear end and has no basis in reality. e.g. do you know what they paid all the top SQ42 actors? $2m? LOL!!
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Nov 29, 2015 15:43
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Sarsapariller posted:
Yes, pretty much so. A lot of people (usually those in denial) are desperately trying to see a "game" here; though no such thing exists. And if it ever becomes a game, I still stand on my Aug speculation of 3yrs + another $75m to get it there. But that won't happen, so speculation is futile.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:49
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Chalks posted:The state of 2.0 makes me think that either this game isn't what people think it's going to be, or that 2.0 is just a bunch of features that they've managed to get working, stuck together in order to produce the illusion of progress. There's no way 2.0 is an alpha of an MMO. There's no way it's an alpha of a deep and varied space-life simulator. It's an alpha of a dogfighting and fps game with basic multiplayer. ...or money laundering scheme thrown in for good measure.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:49
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Trapezium Dave posted:I can certainly see CIG attempting that. I don't see it working though. The fact is that the media are just going to make the same "$100m goal reached!" noise they've been making since the start; while ignoring the underlying issue of there not being anything to show for this money, four years later.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:51
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D_Smart posted:It's all the stuff pulled out of a horse's rear end and has no basis in reality. Heavens forbid.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:55
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$100 million spent!
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Nov 29, 2015 15:59
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Iglocska posted:That doesn't sound too bad actually. Dusty Lens posted:They revised their position on this, yes, then threw out the usual handwavium Dapper Dan posted:So nobody really knows if Squadron 42 is an episode or a full game. My guess is they are intentionally vague so they can claim it was an episode when it comes out and it is poo poo. Here is the promise of SQ42 straight from the funding goal page. All backers are entitled to it depending on when they backed. And apparently at the end of the year, it is going to be a stand-alone $45 package which will no longer include Star Citizen. My guess is that what they're going to end up doing is taking this 50 missions and split it up into three. Yeah, because that's not at all shady. quote:$2m D_Smart fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 16:03
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Tokamak posted:They have already pulled a Double Fine. The game has been split into two parts with the hopes of getting the first part out 'early' to generate sales in order to pay for the second part. they havent pulled out out double fine here. Because Double FIne said that the second part of the game would be much shorter and that they would need more money to continue the development of broken age without contend cutting After that they listened the feedback on the forum and upped the difficulty of the second part. And this was fine for me because they explained what they were doing and why.  I highly doubt that CIG would be this transparent. They would just say "hey we are out of money give us more or this will be the final release of the game" There was way too much hype for the broken age and that hype wasnt generated by double fine studios it was generated by press and adventure game fans. Kickstarter promise was a small adventure game for half a million and film of the process of making one. They had no plans for 3 million game (2 after taxes and physical goodies) so overall i think they delivered the kickstarter promise. It just wasnt what the press and fans were expecting it to be. But what double fine did with spacebase df-9 was shittiest thing ever. Meanwhile CIG is pretty much saying that they will save the pc master race and revive the wing commander. In my opinion theres big difference between intentionally scamming the customer and failing to keep up with the deadlines
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Nov 29, 2015 16:04
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Bootcha posted:At this point, we hear a gently caress ton from Santa Monica, some poo poo from Austin, and very little poo poo from Manchester. And in terms of production, that's from least to most. The further away from Chris and Sandi you are the more work gets done.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:07
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I'm torn. I would LOVE to find out I'm wrong and SC to not only come but also be amazing by all metrics. I want to play that game, EVE with skill based dogfighting and neat ship design instead of whatever EVE tries to pass as combat. But on the other hand, I'm a human-being capable of rational thought and I can see the smoke coming from the roof instead of the chimney. Too many people too close to the issue have pointed out problems, too many people with relevant experience have shown us the warning signs, too many sycophants screaming for too much blood have ruined any hope for a responsible playerbase that will force the developer to make the right decisions . All the realistic best case scenarios feature the management being raided by the FTC, IRS, etc and forced with threat of serious legal implication to either finish or sell off their assets and repay "investors" . We've hit the point where something bigger is going to step in and have to start making rules, rules that have dire consequences. My money is on Germany being the first country to step in and start demanding specific transparency and mandatory refund policy for crowd funded endeavors. The US and Canada will most likely be a year or two behind, the UK might go before them. This isn't just to protect the funders from inept and overwhelmed developers, either, this will be done because money is far too easy to launder through these projects, thus why Chris' brother is currently being investigated by more than one nation's justice department for something similar. I just can't wait to see the Kickstarter to buy Kickstarter a few lobbyists
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Nov 29, 2015 16:07
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Holy poo poo, how do you people not know how employee costs work for a company. Most companies factor the salary somewhere between 30-50% of the cost per employee. Also, there is no way that people aren't making at least 40k/yr on the minimum end of the spectrum. edit: easy numbers - if they make 48k/yr, it's 4k/month on average. That means that each employee is going to cost the company around 10k/month for salary + insurance + overhead for each employee. 300 employees means 3 million/month. kordansk fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 16:13
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Amarcarts posted:I bet you they actually have a hell of a lot of content work done because of the whole parallel development thing but the problem is that since they apparently up until recently haven't nailed down the core technology they haven't been able to be putting all the content into the system and looking at it as they go along. This backloads all of the QA work. Those employees think they've been under crunch but they're about to learn a new meaning of the word. The amount of pressure is going to be biblical. As fun as all the pube and scam jokes are, I maintain a healthy skepticism about all the stuff I've been hearing about because at the end of the day, the company financials are not public. The entire money aspect of this project still has a gigantic black curtain around it. Why should I trust that counter at all? Why should I believe all of the money is coming from gamers? This project has open connections to people who were previously involved in criminal activity. The list of companies seems to be as long as one of the many phallic ships in the "Verse. These companies are shuffling money between who knows how many countries. Make no mistake, the game will come out one way or another to avoid a lawsuit and we'll never actually know the details of how the money was spent, or even how much of it was spent. No, it's never getting finished. At least not as promised.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:13
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D_Smart posted:I have it on good authority (don't ask) that they're burning through around $3m per month now. They are trying to trim that; though it's not really working because what they save by closing Austin and down-sizing to a smaller location, laying people off etc is countered by the increased spending on the new Santa Monica location. What's stupid about the decision to close Austin in the attempt to save money is that Austin is probably the cheapest location they had as far as rent and utilities go. I'll be honest, I don't know what the rent in Frankfurt is, but the rent in Manchester and Santa Monica (or anywhere in the LA area that isn't a poo poo hole) is killer. Now, when saying Austin is cheaper than somewhere else to have a business that's saying something. Anyone from Austin will tell you it's not loving cheap. Which again goes back to my point 18 months ago on the brown sea, there is no way they have anyone with any financial sense more than say a Karl or a Seraph to be making decisions like this. If you do ever get any discovery and it shows any accounting work whatsoever it will probably be in crayon in a language that is closer to toddler gibberish than an accounting ledger.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:14
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I mean the promise of EVE with actual flight dynamics and not point and click damage calculations and the like sounds really amazing but people need to realize that its literally impossible with our current servers, databases and design tools. People need to realize that but I'd think the vast majority of SCs fans are expecting it to be just that.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:15
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kordansk posted:Holy poo poo, how do you people not know how employee costs work for a company. Most companies factor the salary somewhere between 30-50% of the cost per employee. Also, there is no way that people aren't making at least 40k/yr on the minimum end of the spectrum. They're trying to be nice. Beer and some other folks in a thread that has long since been closed on the brown sea calculated they were burning through 2 to 2 and a half million a month and that was 18 months ago. I believe we were also being generous and saying the average employee salary was 35k a year. That was back when they had "500 employees" or something ridiculously stupid.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:15
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Darkpriest667 posted:What's stupid about the decision to close Austin in the attempt to save money is that Austin is probably the cheapest location they had as far as rent and utilities go. I'll be honest, I don't know what the rent in Frankfurt is, but the rent in Manchester and Santa Monica (or anywhere in the LA area that isn't a poo poo hole) is killer. Now, when saying Austin is cheaper than somewhere else to have a business that's saying something. Anyone from Austin will tell you it's not loving cheap. Which again goes back to my point 18 months ago on the brown sea, there is no way they have anyone with any financial sense more than say a Karl or a Seraph to be making decisions like this. It was never about saving money. It was about getting new and better offices for Sandi and Chris. Near Hollywood. Period. End of story.
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Nov 29, 2015 16:18
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