|
The Sharmat posted:Yeah. Apparently they had an "incident" since Simpson left. It seemed like either the incident that caused Simpson to leave or one that happened before he left. The way the doctor said After Fallujah(or was it another place?) seemed like it was a big thing with Simpson. Which is interesting since the whole military drug experiments and Killgrave control make Simpson have parallels with both Luke and Jessica. Simpson is a really interesting character because there are so many things that can be read into him. He's a veteran with war trauma, a cop taking the law into his own hands, a cop using excessive force, a victim of mind control and all the various traumas that can parallel, a hyper masculine alpha male saved by a little lady, an addict, a black ops super soldier and a bumbling guy in over his head. He's trying so hard to be the hero of the story and loving it up an nearly every turn for a variety of reasons.
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 18, 2024 05:26 |
|
|
Combed Thunderclap posted:Also: 13 episodes and no one thinks to put in headphones until the final one? The usefulness of headphones would be extremely limited because Kilgrave can just command other people to attack you. It was less an effective defense and more a part of tricking him. Lycus fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Dec 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
Gyges posted:After Fallujah(or was it another place?) It was Damascus. And I don't think wearing headphones is enough with Kilgrave. Trish had to wear them and avert her eyes, so it seems likely that even if you see Kilgrave issue an order, even if you don't consciously understand, your brain reads his intentions and tries to follow through.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:16
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:It was Damascus. There goes the theory that a person who didn't understand english would be immune from him. I think she averted her eyes so she could stay hidden from him - to be inconspicuous.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:19
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:It was Damascus. Well, it probably had more to do that Kilgrave was trying to give commands to Jessica but was actually talking to Patsy. It seems to be about being in the same air and hearing his commands. Like you gotta inhale the kilgrave virus first and if you're away from that, you're fine. Actually, thinking about it, i bet the virus hitches a ride directly on kilgrave's sound waves, just like, constantly oozing out of his mouth invisibly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:21
|
|
|
The father warned Jessica to not look or listen to Kilgrave before he died. So he could probably control people just by sight after his powerup at least. But yeah, it was also to make sure Trish wasn't identified.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:24
|
|
|
At what other point would the headphones thing possibly have been useful?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:24
|
|
|
Lycus posted:The usefulness of headphones would be extremely limited because Kilgrave can just command other people to attack you. It was less an effective defense and more a part of tricking him. Definitely, it was just interesting that there was a whole subplot about finding a vaccine and all I could think was "wouldn't earplugs be just as good as a vaccine?" But like everyone just posted, it's virus-stuff or whatever even more than sound waves, so it's a moot point. (Also just generally best not to fall into the trap of "but" or "wouldn't" when superpowers exist.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 00:27
|
|
|
"Give me a red." 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
Also also, Jessica & co never know exactly how his power works, and in the last episode not even Kilgrave is sure because of the experimental treatment he takes. Similarly, Jessica doesn't know that her plans wont work because she doesn't know she is only in episode 8 of 13 of a TV show.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 01:27
|
|
|
So is Jessica Jones good?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 01:36
|
|
|
BottledBodhisvata posted:So is Jessica Jones good? Yes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 01:38
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Yes. cool, i'll watch it then
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
Re: Kilgrave's powers and the usefulness of headphones, I assumed that even if you were wearing them, if you could see him mouth the word "Stop", you would follow the command, or even if he motioned for you to take the headphones off, you would have. I don't think his powers worked via sound waves, as long as he gets his intention across of what he wants you to do, you are compelled to do it. For instance, even if you sent a deaf person to take him out they would still be hosed if they have the ability to read his lips. (Basically what Phylodox said) And I just re-watched the scene at the end; Jessica motions to Trish to keep her eyes down, but it's not to blend into the crowd. Trish slips along the side of the wall (very obviously) while Jessica tries to walk through them and only jumps into the melee when everyone is trying to kill each other.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 03:19
|
|
|
King of Foolians posted:Re: Kilgrave's powers and the usefulness of headphones, I assumed that even if you were wearing them, if you could see him mouth the word "Stop", you would follow the command, or even if he motioned for you to take the headphones off, you would have. I don't think his powers worked via sound waves, as long as he gets his intention across of what he wants you to do, you are compelled to do it. For instance, even if you sent a deaf person to take him out they would still be hosed if they have the ability to read his lips. (Basically what Phylodox said) She should've just jumped over the crowd and landed on Kilgrave. Or brought a gun.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 04:10
|
|
|
CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:She should've just jumped over the crowd and landed on Kilgrave. Or brought a gun. Bringing a gun anywhere near Kilgrave seems like a terrible idea.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 04:12
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Bringing a gun anywhere near Kilgrave seems like a terrible idea. If Simpson had shown up to CDC Gitmo just a few minutes sooner...
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 04:14
|
|
|
CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:She should've just jumped over the crowd and landed on Kilgrave. Or brought a gun. It's almost impossible to get legal guns in New York but I'd think Jessica would probably know ways to get illegal ones.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 04:49
|
|
|
^^^Simpson even mentions the gun he gave Trish isn't legal.Gyges posted:It seemed like either the incident that caused Simpson to leave or one that happened before he left. The way the doctor said After Fallujah(or was it another place?) seemed like it was a big thing with Simpson. Which is interesting since the whole military drug experiments and Killgrave control make Simpson have parallels with both Luke and Jessica. I honestly question if he ever was a cop. Detective-Too-Old-For-This-poo poo doesn't seem to recognize him at all, and the only other cop we even see him with was one of "His Boys".
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 05:25
|
|
|
notthegoatseguy posted:^^^Simpson even mentions the gun he gave Trish isn't legal. Yes, he was pretending to be a cop when kilgrave found him...just because.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 05:35
|
|
|
Drifter posted:Yes, he was pretending to be a cop when kilgrave found him...just because.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 05:38
|
|
|
notthegoatseguy posted:^^^Simpson even mentions the gun he gave Trish isn't legal. The guy standing over his shoulder when he was trying to batter down Trish's door was one of his army buddies?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 07:08
|
|
|
Combed Thunderclap posted:The Ugly This almost made my friend quit the series it was such a lovely episode.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
I can't check right now because I'm at work, but how many people were involved in the support group mob rush anyway? All I remember are Robyn, the driver who abandoned his son and the suit guy. If there was anyone else, they vanished in-between Kilgrave's release and the restaurant scene. It was over the top for the suit guy, despite being a gigantic douche, but the driver at least made sense to me. Dude was frustrated that their support group wasn't worth the time and seemed like he was ready to snap at the first opportunity. I'm just glad the smiling woman wasn't involved since she was there when Kilgrave first met Jessica and it wouldn't have made any sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 15:00
|
|
|
notthegoatseguy posted:I honestly question if he ever was a cop. Detective-Too-Old-For-This-poo poo doesn't seem to recognize him at all, and the only other cop we even see him with was one of "His Boys". Detective Violently Waving Death Flag remembered him after Simpson jogged his memory. Which was actually a nice touch. There's no way every cop in a city knows every other cop by sight, that's a lot of cops who are on opposite shifts and in separate departments to just know. Especially since Detective Violently Waving Death Flag works homicide and seems to be in a different precinct than beat cop Simpson.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 16:24
|
|
|
One idea that I really liked and wish they had spent some more time on is this idea of Jessica sacrificing herself and her happiness to be Kilgrave's handler and use his considerable power to do good. One of my favorite themes in comics is exploring the way that superheros do good and whether or not it's solving real problems. Swinging around on webs punching purse snatchers isn't really doing anything to address the root causes of crime in the world. Why aren't Reed Richards and Tony Stark building cheap, renewable resources and curing cancer? The answer is obviously that it's a way more interesting to watch them fight giant killer robots rather than ladle out soup at a kitchen but it also allows writers to play with the concept and ask questions about it. The best example of this is actually from the (very good) webcomic Single Female Protagonist, where a character who is essentially identical to Wolverine takes a different tack to improving the world than punching bad guys. It turns out that due to her powers, her organs are perfect transplants for any person. So she decides the best way to help people is to undergo constant surgery, where her organs are removed for donation. Her healing factor means that these organs almost immediately regenerate, but it also means that anesthetic doesn't work on her. She is tortured all day every day, willingly, in order to tangibly improve and save the lives of thousands of people It's one of the most challenging depictions of heroism that I've seen; one that truly costs the hero rather than just not being able to have a girlfriend or hang out with friends. I'd have loved to see this explored more in JJ because it would certainly cost her emotionally and mentally to live with and guide her abuser for the rest of her life, but being able to positively affect the lives of so many with Kilgrave's power. Of course, it was such a thematically rich show it's obvious that some interesting angles are going to be underdeveloped, but I really enjoyed the scenes of Jessica trying to make Kilgrave do good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 16:36
|
|
King of Foolians posted:Re: Kilgrave's powers and the usefulness of headphones, I assumed that even if you were wearing them, if you could see him mouth the word "Stop", you would follow the command, or even if he motioned for you to take the headphones off, you would have. I don't think his powers worked via sound waves, as long as he gets his intention across of what he wants you to do, you are compelled to do it. For instance, even if you sent a deaf person to take him out they would still be hosed if they have the ability to read his lips. (Basically what Phylodox said) Kilgrave's dad explicitly tells Jessica that she has to avoid looking at Kilgrave as well as listening to him, so this is definitely the intention. I did find it a bit anti-climactic that Kilgrave's big power boost had no effect on Jessica at all, after they made such a big deal out of it. I think I would have liked it better if she had to fight against the desire to obey him or something.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 16:57
|
|
|
Well, if you become immune to chicken pox you won't get chicken pox (usually) again, even if it's a more virulent type. One would imagine that certain types of superheroes have a'stronger' immune system and once they fight off the virus, it stays fought off. Willpower has very little to do with fighting off a cold.zoux posted:One idea that I really liked and wish they had spent some more time on is this idea of Jessica sacrificing herself and her happiness to be Kilgrave's handler and use his considerable power to do good. One of my favorite themes in comics is exploring the way that superheros do good and whether or not it's solving real problems. Swinging around on webs punching purse snatchers isn't really doing anything to address the root causes of crime in the world. Why aren't Reed Richards and Tony Stark building cheap, renewable resources and curing cancer? The answer is obviously that it's a way more interesting to watch them fight giant killer robots rather than ladle out soup at a kitchen but it also allows writers to play with the concept and ask questions about it. The best example of this is actually from the (very good) webcomic Single Female Protagonist, where a character who is essentially identical to Wolverine takes a different tack to improving the world than punching bad guys. It's one of the most challenging depictions of heroism that I've seen; one that truly costs the hero rather than just not being able to have a girlfriend or hang out with friends. I'd have loved to see this explored more in JJ because it would certainly cost her emotionally and mentally to live with and guide her abuser for the rest of her life, but being able to positively affect the lives of so many with Kilgrave's power. Of course, it was such a thematically rich show it's obvious that some interesting angles are going to be underdeveloped, but I really enjoyed the scenes of Jessica trying to make Kilgrave do good. I'm always interested in people who feel positively impacted by that plotline in SFP. Like, you're romanticizing slavery and death and pain and it's all very depressed high schooler in mindset. You know, Kilgrave didn't do anything that Jessica couldn't have done if she had wanted to. All Jessica would have done would have been to become a slave again against her will to Kilgrave. Like, literally the same thing as before, and unless you want kilgrave 1984ing the city or whatever, he wouldn't be a hero. And without Kilgrave, she'd still be heroing and saving lives anyway. If the world can only be saved by mind control... Drifter fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:01
|
|
|
Drifter posted:Well, if you become immune to chicken pox you won't get chicken pox (usually) again, even if it's a more virulent type. One would imagine that certain types of superheroes have a'stronger' immune system and once they fight off the virus, it stays fought off. Willpower has very little to do with fighting off a cold. Well first of all I think it's only metaphorical since it's in a story. Secondly, she's voluntarily doing that so it's absurd to call it slavery. It's just a model for "ultimate actual sacrifice". It's like saying people that are moved by the idea of the crucifixion of Christ are death worshippers. The idea of personal painful sacrifice is one of the most highly prized and moving concepts across pretty much all cultures for all of history, so it's a bit ridiculous to call it "depressed high schooler". Specifically for the show, presumably the most impressive thing that Jess could do with Kilgrave would go beyond domestic hostage situations. Several people in the show remark on his capacity for doing good, and yeah while Jess could've gone in there and busted it up she couldn't, say, cause all the leaders of the world to sign non aggression treaties and multilateral dearmament agreements.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:07
|
|
|
Of course then you have to be in contact with those leaders every 12 hours or so just to keep them from throwing a giant war because you made them do something they found personally and strategically bad.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:23
|
|
|
Gyges posted:Of course then you have to be in contact with those leaders every 12 hours or so just to keep them from throwing a giant war because you made them do something they found personally and strategically bad. Sure but that's just an example off the top of my head. There's probably lots of stuff we could brainstorm, and of course it all depends on what your definition of "good" is, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that you could do a lot more good with Kilgrave's power directed benevolently than just super strength.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:27
|
|
|
Then you're basically in the Ozymandias versus Rorschach situation. There is only one way to use Kilgrave's power: to force people to do things against their will. If you believe this acceptable, you already had a bunch of options for "making the world a better place".
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
Snak posted:Then you're basically in the Ozymandias versus Rorschach situation. There is only one way to use Kilgrave's power: to force people to do things against their will. If you believe this acceptable, you already had a bunch of options for "making the world a better place". Well, that's why I think it's an interesting theme. What if she used his power to make Donald Trump jump off a tall building or make Ted Cruz say the n-word into a hot mic? zoux fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Dec 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
zoux posted:Well, that's why I think it's an interesting theme. Yeah, a story about this idea could be really interesting, but I feel like it would have to be the central plot of whatever story was exploring it. I would like to see it compared to a character who believes that slave labour is justified to further a cause for the greater good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:46
|
|
|
Snak posted:I would like to see it compared to a character who believes that slave labour is justified to further a cause for the greater good. "Look, I REALLY need a cell phone, like, you have no idea..."
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:58
|
|
Drifter posted:Well, if you become immune to chicken pox you won't get chicken pox (usually) again, even if it's a more virulent type. One would imagine that certain types of superheroes have a'stronger' immune system and once they fight off the virus, it stays fought off. Willpower has very little to do with fighting off a cold. Sure, but then why did Kilgrave's dad believe it would work? He is the expert, after all. Given that he explicitly tells Jessica that she will have to avoid looking at and listening to Kilgrave to resist him in his more powerful state*, I expected this to come up during the final confrontation. Then again, Kilgrave's dad also thought his Kilgrave vaccine would work, and that was completely ineffective as well, so I guess he is just a bad scientist. * The exact line is: "He is stronger. Don't listen. Don't look at him. He will make you kill."
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 17:59
|
|
|
They intentionally leave his powers vague and undefined because it is utterly unimportant how they work. That they are a virus is simply for there to be a cure, and honestly I found the whole subplot of a guy making a vaccine with his motel room stuffed with science equipment to stick out like a sore thumb in a series that is very grounded in reality.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 18:02
|
|
|
zoux posted:Well first of all I think it's only metaphorical since it's in a story. Secondly, she's voluntarily doing that so it's absurd to call it slavery. It's just a model for "ultimate actual sacrifice". It's like saying people that are moved by the idea of the crucifixion of Christ are death worshippers. The idea of personal painful sacrifice is one of the most highly prized and moving concepts across pretty much all cultures for all of history, so it's a bit ridiculous to call it "depressed high schooler". Your thinking is skewed. If Jessica 'chose' to help this person she hated, her rapist and slaver, in order to convince him to not kill anyone again, do you really think that's a positive thing? Like, "hey, thanks, Jess. You're super cool for doing this." Kilgrave doesn't have an ultimate power. He compels, for a limited time. There's no way to compel world peace ten hours at a time. That's why Superman and Batman and Spider-man and the XMen or Captain America can't make the world peaceful, they can only react to bad men making it worse. Kilgrave's power is death. To create an unwilling, mindless robot slave. And Jesus died. There was an end to his suffering. That woman's sacrifice is more akin to Satan's. SimonChris posted:Sure, but then why did Kilgrave's dad believe it would work? He is the expert, after all. Given that he explicitly tells Jessica that she will have to avoid looking at and listening to Kilgrave to resist him in his more powerful state*, I expected this to come up during the final confrontation. Drifter fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Dec 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 18:04
|
|
|
Drifter posted:Kilgrave doesn't have an ultimate power. He compels, for a limited time. There's no way to compel world peace. That's why Superman and Batman and Spider-man and the XMen or Captain America can't make the world peaceful, they can only react to bad men making it worse. How his powers work don't matter and wtf is Satan's sacrifice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 18, 2024 05:26 |
|
|
zoux posted:How his powers work don't matter and wtf is Satan's sacrifice. How his powers work do matter. And satan is the one suffering for all eternity based off a choice he made. Jesus was just a good soldier, doing as he was told. I was just adapting the already flawed analogy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2015 18:09
|
|