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Raticus79
Oct 21, 2015
Could just fire up Cheat Engine and track down the doubles which should be holding 64 bit global position coordinates... shouldn't be too hard if you quantum drive to random points and then just do changed/unchanged checks.

Raticus79 fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 3, 2015

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D1E
Nov 25, 2001


D_Smart posted:

LOL!! That's some epic trolling right there :)

drat it! That post totally made my day too.

I was so excited to see another epic response rant from Chris Roberts.

Palpek
Dec 27, 2008


Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.


D_Smart posted:

LOL!! That's some epic trolling right there :)
:gary: Noooooooo

and here I was thinking for a minute that the thread moved into a new exciting phase.

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

Iglocska posted:

WTF is that.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5977836/#Comment_5977836

Some dude's dissertation on what causes griefing.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS

Truga posted:

TL;DR –
When removed from face-to-face interaction, it is a psychological fact that greater aggression and less consideration ensues. When anonymity is also promoted within the same environment, you can expect a system primarily devoted to human-on-human involuntary conflict.

Background
I am a behavior analyst for the US federal government with a Master’s Degree in Psychology. Like many of you, I am excited about this project (Star Citizen) and I have backed it on the premise it will live up to the designer’s intent. Over time I have had concerns about specific facets of the game, but thankfully they have each been addressed in a positive manner. At this point, the only remaining concern is involuntary, game-wide PvP. This has been discussed before, but not within the real-life context of player psychology and the effect it has on the game environment. Several recent changes to the game as well as community discussions have prompted me to share some applicable research and conclusions that may affect the community attitude on the subject.

Anonymous Aggression Tendencies

Problem:
As we all know, the internet is an anonymous environment for the purposes of face-to-face interaction. Even if you know the identity and location of the other party, you are physically disconnected by distance. Within a game, players are always hidden behind an alias. As a result, we all operate under the subconscious (often conscious) knowledge that we can do whatever we want and the consequences are nill. CIG has attempted to reduce these fears by diluting player-to-NPC ratios and instituting some measure of perma-death (at a point) as a consequence to unhindered aggression. The recent revelation that they may include the ability for players to hide their alias identity only fuels anonymity, which is the basis for thoughtless aggression.

As most of us have experienced, involuntary PvP results in full PvP. Look no further than EVE Online. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of additional examples in the gaming industry. When you allow players to prey on each other, they will no matter what loss they may experience. There will always be large numbers of people who derive pleasure from destroying others or hindering their progress and will suicide themselves to do it, if necessary.

Analysis:
None of the measures CIG has currently stated will effectively hinder game-wide PvP. If aggressive players lose their character after 6-7 “deaths”, player economy will shift away from any real tie to that that characters longevity. In other words, aggressive players won’t care and will simply develop a pipeline to replace their characters with new ones and continue. As long as they can start over, even if from scratch, they will continue to do so. Lack of any skill progression makes this scenario even more likely.

Diluting player-to-NPC ratios is a step in the right direction as it makes it less likely a player will come across another player. However, players will likely follow similar routes and missions as NPCs and aggressive players need only camp areas or routes and wait for a human player. A friend of mine in the gaming community was recently describing his intent to pirate other human players, and when I suggested he stick to NPCs, he scoffed. “That’s no fun,” he said, adding that fighting a human player added an element of satisfaction that he was affecting a real person, not some binary-code AI. This perfectly illustrates the problem. Some will hunt humans just because they exist, and it does not take many to ruin the gameplay for a lot.

A stealth gameplay mechanic is one thing, but allowing players the ability to hide their personal identification (I assume their in-game alias) will only lead to a massive increase in involuntary PvP that will also increase overall player frustration with the game. For example, if a player is killed by another player involuntarily, they should be able to at least identify who it was (and their organization). Perhaps they could retaliate, issue a bounty, enter into diplomacy with the organization, etc. But if that person was a total unknown…no possible recourse can be had. That type of freedom for the aggressor and loss of justice for the victim will destroy the in-game environment. The responses to a recent Reddit post illustrate this as well. All seemed to be generally happy with this option and willing to use it for exactly the purpose I expected.

Lastly, I will cite the Milgram Experiment as a classic (even pre-internet) example of how far people will go when they are disconnected from the personhood of their victims. History is replete with examples, and the internet is only the latest.

Possible Solutions:
Allow me to caveat by saying I do not support disabling all PvP game-wide. It makes perfect sense there would be areas of space where there could not possibly be full security assurances (frontier systems, for example). And I am aware some people greatly enjoy this type of gameplay. I am looking at solutions that incorporate as many intentions as possible.

First, CIG needs to create the game world (the 100+ systems said to be in the universe) in such a way that economy, business, production, and other non-combat related careers can fully function without the need to hit involuntary PvP. This means safe routes and systems would need to comprise enough of the universe as to not “force” those players to have to enter lawless systems in order to conduct their business. This is what EVE gets very wrong. To really get anywhere in business or non-combat roles (mining, for example) you must enter lawless systems. Star Citizen does not have to move every single such opportunity to a full security system, but a majority should be.

Second, DO NOT ALLOW players to hide their in-game identity, and if possible their organization affiliation. At least allow victims to pursue some level of justice as I mentioned previously. I personally believe this will add a better PvP system as bounty hunting will take on a larger role, organization relations will fluctuate, and so on.

Third, understand that there is no difference between security settings in systems beyond “yes” and “no”. Partial security means no security. We already know there will be varying degrees of security in the Star Citizen systems, but this misses the point. Anything less than 100% (a “yes”, is secure) will be exploited by aggressors. Knowing this, CIG needs to provide a simple majority of the universe as fully secure systems whereby aggressors are not able to even suicide attack other players. Coding in NPC security forces that arrive instantaneously or a coded signal from authorities that disables ship weapons upon entering the system. These are just concepts to illustrate the issue.

Conclusion
Space combat can be fun for all, but when given their proverbial inch, human players will take a light year in their pursuit of other players that they know don’t want to be pursued. Given the semi-permadeath mechanic apparently being built into the game, these aggressors will value their own characters’ lives less and derive greater twisted satisfaction out of knowing that trader they just killed was far more attached to their character than they were. I strongly suggest CIG design gameplay in such a manner as to place more restrictions on involuntary PvP than would be immediately expected, and then roll them back if necessary in the future.

Milgram is appropriate to this internet videogame about spaceships because

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Beet Wagon posted:

I thought they said for sure at some point or another that the only area they were releasing was Stanton, but I'll be damned if I'm going to go back and dig through all their communications to find out where. Anecdotally, I don't think I ever saw anyone expecting more than Stanton.

Yes. But here's the thing. Note the wording of that slide.

D_Smart fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Dec 3, 2015

Victory Position
Mar 16, 2004

D_Smart posted:

Yes. But here's the thing. Not the wording of that slide.



has it been determined that the models within the game tech demo powerpoint presentation are the size of ants

I'd like to imagine that the modelers are having a hell of a time working with polygons zoomed in as small as they can go

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Truga posted:

TL;DR –

TL;DR version: ShitiCizens are hosed.

Beet Wagon
Oct 19, 2015





D_Smart posted:

Yes. But here's the thing. Note the wording of that slide.



I guess I just don't see anything on the slide indicating that it wasn't going to just be Stanton?

It could just be because I can't read though.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015

Beet Wagon posted:

I guess I just don't see anything on the slide indicating that it wasn't going to just be Stanton?

It could just be because I can't read though.

I don't get it either, I think we're focusing on things that are actually not issues again... :)

ShredsYouSay
Sep 22, 2011

How's his widow holding up?
so because n64 was 64 bit, it could have done star citizen, right

Palpek
Dec 27, 2008


Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.


That last point is such a bad use of the quote. It's as if Armstrong would have said "One small step for an astronaut..."

Chris Roberts: We need to use the moon landing quote, it doesn't matter if it's needless, fumbled, illogical and in the end embarassing, that's my vision (for SC).

bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015

When the babbypoo goes live my dad Derek Smart is going to fire up one of his SC accounts and he and I are going to grief star shitizen sperglord pubbies for hours. Who's with us?

aleksendr
May 14, 2014

Fil5000 posted:

Milgram is appropriate to this internet videogame about spaceships because

Its not. I think he is mixing the "Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures" and Stanford prison experiment ( a study of the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or prison guard) trying to prove the point that anonymous people with power tend to be dick to others if they can get away with it.

the TL;DR is "i'm rambling on systems that dont exist yet and without solid informations but i KNOW I dont want anyone to have fun in a different way than me. Also i have a poor understanding of psychology experiments."

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



ShredsYouSay posted:

so because n64 was 64 bit, it could have done star citizen, right

only if you had the expansion pack

sold seperately

LuiCypher
Apr 24, 2010

Today I'm... amped up!

Iglocska posted:

WTF is that.

Cognitive dissonance.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

He should have spent this time on researching grieving for the time this game fails.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015

Paladinus posted:

He should have spent this time on researching grieving for the time this game fails.

Might have been a typo and he googled the wrong stuff?

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer
Right sorry to have bored everyone with the 32/64 bit thing but it was bugging me.

The next thing I'm going to focus on is to figure out how large the 32 bit local zones are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVODuGFCMg&t=2458s

quote:

Right now if you get more than about 8 km from the origin you'll start to get floating point imprecision
From my understanding of the large world change it's not going to help at all with anything the player will be seeing in the local zone, the stuff you're fighting/flying around, all it does is allow you to fly to other local zones far far away. You can call it seamless as the local zones are streamed in as you travel but the local zone/play area is limited in exactly the same way as the Arena Commander maps are. So are the local zones only 8 km long?

The Bengal Carrier is 1 km long...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVODuGFCMg&t=1937s

Shubin Interstellar Mining Station is apparently 6km long.

So if you fly backwards 1050m from the front of Shubin, you can't see it as you'll be in a different zone? No, that doesn't seem right, where is the origin point?, if it's the middle then you could travel 8 km away I guess, so over 5 km away it disappears even though it's 6km big. Do they split it across zones and instance the zones too if there are lots of players?

Octopode, can you explain this to me? If I walk out my front door and walk 1 width of my house away and turn around, I can still see my house.

AP fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Dec 3, 2015

Dapper Dan
Dec 16, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!
The funny thing is with all this squabbling, the thing is still basically a tech demo. The amount of work that still needs to be done is massive.

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

AP posted:

From my understanding of the large world change it's not going to help at all with anything the player will be seeing in the local zone, the stuff you're fighting/flying around, all it does is allow you to fly to other local zones far far away. You can call it seamless as the local zones are streamed in as you travel but the local zone/play area is limited in exactly the same way as the Arena Commander maps are. So are the local zones only 8 km long?

There should be no difference in the maximum size, as its all based on the same basic mathematics. The important bit is that Arena Commander's maps have a fixed origin that doesn't move, which isn't the case for the new system. Under the new system, the local grids used for the majority of the work for/by the client are not fixed volumes in a section of space (i.e., we're not talking about a 32-bit 8km box, next to another, next to another, etc. that are strung together to make a 64-bit equivalent space and which you transit through statically). The local grids used for objects with no parent grid other than the 64-bit world space are dynamically created at the time the calculations are needed. Essentially, when something needs to happen for you, the system creates a temporary 32-bit grid for you and other objects where all are close to the center where there is appropriate precision available, does the calculations, gets the result, and then translates the results back to 64-bit positions based on where it created the temporary grid.

breadshaped
Apr 1, 2010


Soiled Meat
Everything I've seen so far lead me to conclude that if cig are building a house, they've started with a wooden frame and fully completed the 2nd floor master bedroom without adding anything else.

This is going to be in development hell for years maybe we won't see anything tangibly close to what they've promised until 2018. Why didn't they create a functional engine or any platform to grow an expansive universe on first. It's so mind bogglingly short sighted

When you are scamming people out of their money it's better to release a tech demo one a year than have them watch tedious engine and code development, I guess.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
If Chris Roberts was building a house, he'd have laid down the foundation 3 times. The master bedroom would require you to go through the laundry room and kitchen, and has no other exit. The bathrooms (two) are all in the basement to reduce damage in case something goes wrong, and the furnace is in the shed in the backyard.

But at least the house looks nice from the outside!

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Jobbo_Fett posted:

If Chris Roberts was building a house, he'd have laid down the foundation 3 times. The master bedroom would require you to go through the laundry room and kitchen, and has no other exit. The bathrooms (two) are all in the basement to reduce damage in case something goes wrong, and the furnace is in the shed in the backyard.

But at least the house looks nice from the outside!

croberts is grover and SC is groverhouse. its all clear to me now

Madcosby
Mar 4, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
SC is going to loving suck and right now, in its infant fly-around-shoot-ships-get-out-of-ships stage is the best the game will ever be, because as soon as Roberts starts implementing their joke of an economy, LTI, a pvp slider [lol] and all the minigames the game will become so unfun it will be hilarious

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

Octopode posted:

The important bit is that Arena Commander's maps have a fixed origin that doesn't move, which isn't the case for the new system. Under the new system, the local grids used for the majority of the work for/by the client are not fixed volumes in a section of space (i.e., we're not talking about a 32-bit 8km box, next to another, next to another, etc. that are strung together to make a 64-bit equivalent space and which you transit through statically). The local grids used for objects with no parent grid other than the 64-bit world space are dynamically created at the time the calculations are needed. Essentially, when something needs to happen for you, the system creates a temporary 32-bit grid for you and other objects where all are close to the center where there is appropriate precision available, does the calculations, gets the result, and then translates the results back to 64-bit positions based on where it created the temporary grid.

Yes, that sorta makes sense and is clever but if Shubin is 6km long and in a zone, if you travel 8km away, so you're just over 5km distant from the edge of Shubin, you can't see it anymore?

If the zone is based on your position instead of Shubin, harder as you'll need more zones, you can't see a 6km object in space from just over 8km away?

it dont matter
Aug 29, 2008

AP posted:

The Bengal Carrier is 1 km long...


Is this supposed to be a ship that you'll be able to fly? What's the largest playable ship they've made so far?

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

alphabettitouretti posted:

Is this supposed to be a ship that you'll be able to fly? What's the largest playable ship they've made so far?

Yes, Bengal largest you can capture and fly, not for sale (so far).

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard
I avoid getting hyped for any game and typically avoid even reading about it until a couple weeks before, this is a big step for me. Glad I did it!

Berious
Nov 13, 2005

Truga posted:

TL;DR –
First, CIG needs to create the game world (the 100+ systems said to be in the universe) in such a way that mixing drinks, erotic roleplay, buggy races, and other non-combat related careers can fully function without the need to hit involuntary PvP.

kikkelivelho
Aug 27, 2015

AP posted:

Yes, that sorta makes sense and is clever but if Shubin is 6km long and in a zone, if you travel 8km away, so you're just over 5km distant from the edge of Shubin, you can't see it anymore?

If the zone is based on your position instead of Shubin, harder as you'll need more zones, you can't see a 6km object in space from just over 8km away?

If you look at the 2.0 videos the stations and various asteroids are clearly visible from beyond the 8 km limit so I don't think that's the case. You seem to exit quantum at a distance of 15 km from the target and the stations are visible from that range.

ZenMaster
Jan 24, 2006

I Saved PC Gaming


Hey there's something I need to tell you and if you want ya know you can kind maybe assist me and stuff and so well i think hey listen up i need to tell you something important and i guess I should just get to it like soon cause boy, it doesn't sound good

"OH$#$#$^I AM DYING AHHHHH AHHHHH ^$#^$#^$! IM ON FIRE!!! HELP HELP"

so yeah, that might be something you want to check out, but maybe not, but maybe, anyways, i am not sure why it took me so long to say hey go help this dying person but i guess I just was lonely so stay and chat?

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

kikkelivelho posted:

If you look at the 2.0 videos the stations and various asteroids are clearly visible from beyond the 8 km limit so I don't think that's the case. You seem to exit quantum at a distance of 15 km from the target and the stations are visible from that range.

Ah, then the floating point imprecision must be deemed acceptable at 15 km. Can somebody test coming out of quantum travel towards a large object and reversing to see if/when it disappears and at what range?

eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

:yikes:

ShredsYouSay
Sep 22, 2011

How's his widow holding up?
star citizen will be a healing experience.

If you focus on your Citizen ranking through your third eye chakra, and draw positive spiritual energy from the Christal, you will quantum travel out of your body due to 32 bit/64 bit conversion errors.

that's what deepak chopra says.

Terebus
Feb 17, 2007

Pillbug

Toops posted:

This god drat floating point poo poo has me PISSED.

Loiosh, why the gently caress are you continuing to post about 32/64 bit like you know something, if you can't wrap your head around the cliff's notes in other posts? This is clearly a SC mission trip to SA forums. You sound like a flunked-out CIG mentat trying to convert us into space dream revenue, and I, for one, hope you accidentally ploink your gom jabbar into the tip of your dick while fapping to ship jpegs. But we need you so this place doesn't become a joyless echo chamber.

Octopode.. Jesus dude. Don't you have a database migration to watch the logs during?

I'm loving SALTY boys.

You are really in love with dune. Have you been hitting the spice too much?

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

ZenMaster posted:

Hey there's something I need to tell you and if you want ya know you can kind maybe assist me and stuff and so well i think hey listen up i need to tell you something important and i guess I should just get to it like soon cause boy, it doesn't sound good

"OH$#$#$^I AM DYING AHHHHH AHHHHH ^$#^$#^$! IM ON FIRE!!! HELP HELP"

so yeah, that might be something you want to check out, but maybe not, but maybe, anyways, i am not sure why it took me so long to say hey go help this dying person but i guess I just was lonely so stay and chat?

Yeah I think that's the voice of Katherine Parkinson from the IT crowd, so they'd paid for her time so they were absolutely going to use it, screw the guy in trouble.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015

ZenMaster posted:

Hey there's something I need to tell you and if you want ya know you can kind maybe assist me and stuff and so well i think hey listen up i need to tell you something important and i guess I should just get to it like soon cause boy, it doesn't sound good

"OH$#$#$^I AM DYING AHHHHH AHHHHH ^$#^$#^$! IM ON FIRE!!! HELP HELP"

so yeah, that might be something you want to check out, but maybe not, but maybe, anyways, i am not sure why it took me so long to say hey go help this dying person but i guess I just was lonely so stay and chat?

But people love her voice.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009

Fun Shoe

AP posted:

Right sorry to have bored everyone with the 32/64 bit thing but it was bugging me.

The next thing I'm going to focus on is to figure out how large the 32 bit local zones are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVODuGFCMg&t=2458s

From my understanding of the large world change it's not going to help at all with anything the player will be seeing in the local zone, the stuff you're fighting/flying around, all it does is allow you to fly to other local zones far far away. You can call it seamless as the local zones are streamed in as you travel but the local zone/play area is limited in exactly the same way as the Arena Commander maps are. So are the local zones only 8 km long?

The Bengal Carrier is 1 km long...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVODuGFCMg&t=1937s

Shubin Interstellar Mining Station is apparently 6km long.

So if you fly backwards 1050m from the front of Shubin, you can't see it as you'll be in a different zone? No, that doesn't seem right, where is the origin point?, if it's the middle then you could travel 8 km away I guess, so over 5 km away it disappears even though it's 6km big. Do they split it across zones and instance the zones too if there are lots of players?

Octopode, can you explain this to me? If I walk out my front door and walk 1 width of my house away and turn around, I can still see my house.

Have you seen the Poseidon documents from Goonswarm relating to the way that Eve creates 'local bubbles' of space around ships, and how it could be manipulated for fun and profit?

Edit: GARPA 'Grid Fu' is the right doc. Poseidon was creating deep safes, but also relied on relative imprecision at high speed to 'scatter' the final location.

I don't appear to have a copy of grid fu, but one of the things that you could do was drive away from a POS, which would create a series of contigious grids, then 'hang a right', while creating more grids. The PoS grid would still be visible, but the ship/fleet would not. Image a '7' with the PoS at the base and the ship at the top.

Hav fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 3, 2015

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Beet Wagon
Oct 19, 2015





ZenMaster posted:

Hey there's something I need to tell you and if you want ya know you can kind maybe assist me and stuff and so well i think hey listen up i need to tell you something important and i guess I should just get to it like soon cause boy, it doesn't sound good

"OH$#$#$^I AM DYING AHHHHH AHHHHH ^$#^$#^$! IM ON FIRE!!! HELP HELP"

so yeah, that might be something you want to check out, but maybe not, but maybe, anyways, i am not sure why it took me so long to say hey go help this dying person but i guess I just was lonely so stay and chat?

She sounds so casual. Like she's sitting there listening to this dude screaming for help and has to actually take a second to consider putting down her Space-Bejeweled to forward it to someone who might give a gently caress.

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