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Cyphoderus posted:I love Wakanda to death, but I really, really doubt this kind of thinking went into its creation. We're talking about 1966 here, Fantastic Four #52. Early FF thrived on character moments and Kirby's art; the Marvel Universe itself at the time (especially the part that interacted with the FF) was of secondary importance, hardly more than a patchwork collection of pulp action ideas and springboards. I really think Wakanda was just Lee and Kirby getting a kick out of surprising their characters and readers with the contrast between half-naked, tribal-dancing people and ultra technology. I'm just learning this now as I google-poo poo around, but apparently there was a lengthy (~35 pp) article on Ethiopia in an early 1965 issue of National Geographic, and it did address some aspects of the Solomonic dynasty. At the very least, there's a good reason that Kirby might have been inspired by Ethiopia specifically at the time he was doing the FF issue.
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Dec 3, 2015 19:54
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A lot of early FF was playing on classic pulp themes "THE GREAT DESTRUCTION FROM THE THING FROM SPACE" isn't just a monster it is a dude who is hungry and part of the lifecycle of the universe. The hidden city in the jungle was a pretty come adventure pulp topic in the 20's-40's. Based on the themes in Lee and Kirbys other work I am pretty sure they consciously twisted it to be an ADVANCED civ in the jungle. Other writers like Priest and Hickmen ran with the subversive history aspect of Wakanda but the base of that was already there and based on, mainly Kirby's worldview, i strongly believe there was some intention there.
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Dec 3, 2015 19:58
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I've always hated the concept of Wakanda and it poisons Black Panther as a character I can ever be a fan of for me. Because it is a hyper-advanced nation with all sorts of helpful tech that it refuses to share. Its neighbors are starving, or drought-stricken, or sick, or just poor, and Wakanda sits behind its walls going "lol we could fix all of that but gently caress it and gently caress you". That's the sort of bullshit you'd expect out of Latveria or Lexor. They're a super-gated community and it makes them assholes in my eyes.
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Dec 3, 2015 19:59
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CapnAndy posted:I've always hated the concept of Wakanda and it poisons Black Panther as a character I can ever be a fan of for me. Because it is a hyper-advanced nation with all sorts of helpful tech that it refuses to share. Its neighbors are starving, or drought-stricken, or sick, or just poor, and Wakanda sits behind its walls going "lol we could fix all of that but gently caress it and gently caress you". That's the sort of bullshit you'd expect out of Latveria or Lexor. They're a super-gated community and it makes them assholes in my eyes.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:00
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redbackground posted:It's like the kind of place that would be founded by Reed Richards. And in fact was in Ultimate.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:06
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CapnAndy posted:I've always hated the concept of Wakanda and it poisons Black Panther as a character I can ever be a fan of for me. Because it is a hyper-advanced nation with all sorts of helpful tech that it refuses to share. Its neighbors are starving, or drought-stricken, or sick, or just poor, and Wakanda sits behind its walls going "lol we could fix all of that but gently caress it and gently caress you". That's the sort of bullshit you'd expect out of Latveria or Lexor. They're a super-gated community and it makes them assholes in my eyes. Oh man, you are going to like Planetary.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:13
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Cyphoderus posted:Oh man, you are going to like Planetary.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:14
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Archyduke posted:Prodigy? Synch, Alex from the Runaways... of course, these are both also minors. I'm sort of stumped coming up with any adult black men who don't have either of those things in their backstory. I want to say Night Thrasher but that might just be because I'm too ignorant about Night Thrasher to know what's happened in his backstory. Mr. Terrific? Post Crisis Mr. Terrific had one of the most hilariously disconnected origins when you compare it to how he was written. His origin is that he's a brilliant man who is going to end his life because he can't cope with the tragic death of his wife. So the Spectre shows up and tells him how the original Mr. Terrific was killed by a super villain ghost called the Spirit King, but was defeated by Mr. Terrific ghost. And this inspires Michael Holt to become a super hero. Then he shows up in JSA where he is this rational man who doesn't believe in the supernatural. Which is okay in the real world. But it just makes him look like an rear end in a top hat who was told a ghost story by a literal ghost, and the message he took away from it was "I'd look baller in a leather jacket with the words 'Fair Play' on the back."
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Dec 3, 2015 20:22
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CapnAndy posted:I've always hated the concept of Wakanda and it poisons Black Panther as a character I can ever be a fan of for me. Because it is a hyper-advanced nation with all sorts of helpful tech that it refuses to share. Its neighbors are starving, or drought-stricken, or sick, or just poor, and Wakanda sits behind its walls going "lol we could fix all of that but gently caress it and gently caress you". That's the sort of bullshit you'd expect out of Latveria or Lexor. They're a super-gated community and it makes them assholes in my eyes. I don't know, given the history of, y'know, Africa, I'm pretty sure that it's reasonable of Wakanda to say "We could make things better for our entire continent but the moment we do, you know good and well that we're gonna get invaded by white dudes for all eternity, people who won't be satisfied until they've stripped our land of all of its resources and left it a withered husk while demanding that we follow their religions and use their languages and essentially wiping out our cultural identity, and we sort of don't want that to happen so let's see what we can do to make the world a better and safer place more subtly without just handing out Do-It-Yourself-Garden-Of-Eden-Kits." It's a hyper-advanced nation that only got to reach hyper-advanced status by keeping their heads low, it's sort of hard to hate on them for sticking with that successful strategy IMHO.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:11
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The Question IRL posted:But it just makes him look like an rear end in a top hat who was told a ghost story by a literal ghost, and the message he took away from it was "I'd look baller in a leather jacket with the words 'Fair Play' on the back." But was he wrong???
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Dec 3, 2015 21:14
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Squizzle posted:I'm just learning this now as I google-poo poo around, but apparently there was a lengthy (~35 pp) article on Ethiopia in an early 1965 issue of National Geographic, and it did address some aspects of the Solomonic dynasty. At the very least, there's a good reason that Kirby might have been inspired by Ethiopia specifically at the time he was doing the FF issue. Kirby definitely kept stacks of National Geographic around (if nothing else, you can see bits of them in some of his photo collages), so this is 1000% plausible.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:25
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I don't know, given the history of, y'know, Africa, I'm pretty sure that it's reasonable of Wakanda to say "We could make things better for our entire continent but the moment we do, you know good and well that we're gonna get invaded by white dudes for all eternity, people who won't be satisfied until they've stripped our land of all of its resources and left it a withered husk while demanding that we follow their religions and use their languages and essentially wiping out our cultural identity, and we sort of don't want that to happen so let's see what we can do to make the world a better and safer place more subtly without just handing out Do-It-Yourself-Garden-Of-Eden-Kits." Not to mention, what they're doing is status quo for world powers. No one, including China, seems excited to lift North Koreans out of their present situation. The US isn't doing much to help lift up the quality-of-living floor for Mexico's poorest, nor helping aggressively to help out with narcotrafficker violence—and the US is by some measures the richest nation in the world, and by most measures one of the most militarily powerful in the world's history. At least Wakanda can point to so much of their wonder-workings relying on vibranium, which is both finite in quantity and highly weaponizable, to justify not proliferating it to their neediest neighbors.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:28
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Archyduke posted:But was he wrong??? He was not.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:48
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Archyduke posted:But was he wrong??? I suppose. Except I get the feeling when he was being told that story, he wasn't actually listening do much as mentally drawing a picture of himself in his new Leather jacket.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:16
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Why do colorists still think digital gradients over flat surfaces are a good idea? I see it from time to time and it never, ever, looks good.
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Dec 4, 2015 00:34
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Cyphoderus posted:Why do colorists still think digital gradients over flat surfaces are a good idea? I see it from time to time and it never, ever, looks good. Because they are determined to make me hate comics.
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Dec 4, 2015 01:40
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Madkal posted:Then the Italians had to come and gently caress that up later on. If you're going to count the Italian occupation of Ethiopia as colonization, France is a German colony and Japan is an American colony.
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Dec 4, 2015 07:53
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I can let the isolationism of Wakanda slide in the same way I gloss over why Reed Richards (or Tony Stark, or Hank Pym, or...) doesn't cure cancer. You bring too much of that super science into the civilian world and it's no longer a superhero story; it's a sci-fi story. The thing that gets me is why everyone in this super advanced society is running around dressed like extras in a Tarzan movie. I can deal with it in the old Kirby books, because I realize they were made in a different time. Also, when Kirby draws a guy in a leopard skin holding a spear, it looks as badass as any Asgardian or New God. I know this is old at this point, but I saw the Ultimate Avengers 2 cartoon on Netflix not too long ago, and it almost made me wince at how the army of this super advanced nation was running around in the jungle half naked and throwing spears. Sure, they were explosive laser spears or something, but that was hardly an improvement. Maybe that is not a good example of how Wakanda is portrayed in modern comics, but what little I've seen doesn't make me want to dig any deeper.
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Dec 4, 2015 09:09
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Luchacabra posted:I can let the isolationism of Wakanda slide in the same way I gloss over why Reed Richards (or Tony Stark, or Hank Pym, or...) doesn't cure cancer. You bring too much of that super science into the civilian world and it's no longer a superhero story; it's a sci-fi story. Didn't Wakanda have the cure for cancer at one point? Might have been in Reginald Hudlin's run, which I've not read but understand a lot of people don't like. (I am familiar with Reginald Hudlin solely from the parody of him that was in The Boondocks in a couple of episodes.)
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Dec 4, 2015 12:44
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Wheat Loaf posted:Didn't Wakanda have the cure for cancer at one point? If that was the run where BP got the Silver Surfer in an arm lock and claimed that it was impossible to get out of, I would consider nothing from it to be worthwhile.
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Dec 4, 2015 13:01
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prefect posted:If that was the run where BP got the Silver Surfer in an arm lock and claimed that it was impossible to get out of, I would consider nothing from it to be worthwhile. http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/09/20/the-wrong-side-black-panther-vs-silver-surfer/2/
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Dec 4, 2015 14:03
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Skwirl posted:If you're going to count the Italian occupation of Ethiopia as colonization, France is a German colony and Japan is an American colony. Well Italy was more hampered by time tho, the whole reason they invaded Ethiopia was resources, and have their very own colony.
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Dec 4, 2015 19:03
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Luchacabra posted:I can let the isolationism of Wakanda slide in the same way I gloss over why Reed Richards (or Tony Stark, or Hank Pym, or...) doesn't cure cancer. You bring too much of that super science into the civilian world and it's no longer a superhero story; it's a sci-fi story. If you're an isolated culture based on a combination of high technology and spirit magic/gods why would you abandon traditional garb or weapon styles if they were completely effective in protecting the wearer (via energy shields or whatever)? Particularly if that tech jump only happened in the last 150 years or so and your culture rejects immigration edit: and trade. Exactly how do you think they should be dressing? And yes I think they have been shown to have armor plate for some troops when needed, same with laser cannons or whatever.
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Dec 4, 2015 19:35
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CapnAndy posted:Because it is a hyper-advanced nation with all sorts of helpful tech that it refuses to share. Its neighbors are starving, or drought-stricken, or sick, or just poor, and Wakanda sits behind its walls going "lol we could fix all of that but gently caress it and gently caress you". That's the sort of bullshit you'd expect out of Latveria or Lexor. They're a super-gated community and it makes them assholes in my eyes. this also describes the origin nation of pretty much 90% of superheroes why don't Asgard/Oa/Atlantis/America share their tech
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Dec 4, 2015 20:20
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Zachack posted:If you're an isolated culture based on a combination of high technology and spirit magic/gods why would you abandon traditional garb or weapon styles if they were completely effective in protecting the wearer (via energy shields or whatever)? Particularly if that tech jump only happened in the last 150 years or so and your culture rejects immigration edit: and trade. Because those weapons are not some weird pinnacle of weapon design. They looked like that because of limited tech. They would become obsolete the minute you invented science magic, isolated or not.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:25
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Zachack posted:If you're an isolated culture based on a combination of high technology and spirit magic/gods why would you abandon traditional garb or weapon styles if they were completely effective in protecting the wearer (via energy shields or whatever)? Particularly if that tech jump only happened in the last 150 years or so and your culture rejects immigration edit: and trade. If you go that route, why aren't they still living in grass shacks? Just put a climate-controlled force bubble over it. Every skyscraper or bit of city tech looks like any other futuristic society in any other comic, but it's like the only way to get across that the people are African is to dress them like simple, unadvanced tribesmen. Wearing robe-type garments in the city as opposed to business suits is fine at showing different cultural norms, but fielding an army of shirtless men throwing spears is a little tone deaf.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:53
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Luchacabra posted:If you go that route, why aren't they still living in grass shacks? Sometimes they are.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:15
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Luchacabra posted:If you go that route, why aren't they still living in grass shacks? Just put a climate-controlled force bubble over it. If a some shirtless dudes with bonus glowing science lines and dots can take down any invading force including Thanos alien squad why would they change their garb if there are cultural associations with them? Advancing building technology (and it is mingled with "african" stylings and whatever the whole land of the dead thing is) makes some sense if you want flying cars parking 50 stories up and increased population density but if you handed the US military super technology back in 1860 we would probably still be going to war dressed like Johnny Reb Stomper, doubly so if Lincoln was the spokesperson for a literal national god. Further it does serve as commentary on imperialism and colonialism that a nation of total rear end kickers has rejected the overwhelmingly dominant military dress styles propagated from British and US military dominance. Those norms are so globally used that wholesale rejection makes a clearer statement than trying to come up with some alternate uniform that carries the concept of battle dress without still overlapping with Western styles, although I guess they could all dress like black panther. I think accusations of tone deafness (and worse) would make sense if Wakandians were portrayed as a savage horde with cyber spears but they aren't, and are just the opposite.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:14
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Yeah I never understand what the gently caress people are on about when they think Wakanda should be less African.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:17
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I think it is just the idea of having it move away from the more stereotypical aspects of Africa. For all the positive portrayals of it, it still hurts when people fall back on lazy stereotypes.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:21
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Yeah, but you gotta walk that line between "distinct culture with proud history" and "racial stereotype", otherwise you're just applying the trappings of Western civilization to a culture that doesn't really have any reason to adhere to them. Or you're creating a culture out of whole cloth, which doesn't really help, either.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:35
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Lurdiak posted:Yeah I never understand what the gently caress people are on about when they think Wakanda should be less African. I think there's more to being African than not wearing a shirt and holding a spear. I mean, I get it. It's an easily identifiable visual warrior motif. If Wakanda was in England, everyone would be wearing bulletproof platemail and carrying laser swords on rocket horses. But there isn't the same kind of baggage associated with knights in shining armor. Zachack's comments on imperialism and colonialism sound interesting, but has any of that been explored in the comics? I certainly wasn't getting any of that from Ultimate Avengers 2. And fighting Thanos or whatever doesn't really mean anything. Anyone can beat anyone else in comics when the author writes it that way.
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Dec 4, 2015 23:22
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, but you gotta walk that line between "distinct culture with proud history" and "racial stereotype", otherwise you're just applying the trappings of Western civilization to a culture that doesn't really have any reason to adhere to them. Or you're creating a culture out of whole cloth, which doesn't really help, either. The main problem is they aren't a distinct culture, they are just what westerners think Africa is. Surpringly Africa is a bit more complicated than a lovely western stereotype would have you believe. Plus fashion changes over time. We don't just dress as Cyber puritans for gently caress sakes.
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Dec 4, 2015 23:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:Plus fashion changes over time. We don't just dress as Cyber puritans for gently caress sakes. One more reason why Wakanda is a superior culture; they don't waste time on that.
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Dec 4, 2015 23:39
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CharlestheHammer posted:The main problem is they aren't a distinct culture, they are just what westerners think Africa is. Surpringly Africa is a bit more complicated than a lovely western stereotype would have you believe. Like I said, it's a fine line. On one hand, you have "Visual styles extrapolated from African culture and history" and on the other you have "Literal spear-waving, grass-skirt wearing savages". Black Panther regularly plays jump-rope with that line.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:11
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Phylodox posted:Like I said, it's a fine line. On one hand, you have "Visual styles extrapolated from African culture and history" and on the other you have "Literal spear-waving, grass-skirt wearing savages". Black Panther regularly plays jump-rope with that line. Part of the issue, though, is that neither of those is actually a good direction to take. The phrase "African culture" is as meaningful as "Asian culture" or "North American culture"; there is no one continent-wide African culture or tradition, there's dozens of separate cultures. It's not a monolith, and extrapolating from the entire continent is as respectful as making up a new North American country by mixing together elements from Inupiat, Cherokee, and Mayan cultures. Though I did like the idea mentioned earlier that you could read Wakanda as specifically based on the Ethiopian Empire.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:23
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Idran posted:Part of the issue, though, is that neither of those is actually a good direction to take. The phrase "African culture" is as meaningful as "Asian culture" or "North American culture"; there is no one continent-wide African culture or tradition, there's dozens of separate cultures. It's not a monolith, and extrapolating from the entire continent is as respectful as making up a new North American country by mixing together elements from Inupiat, Cherokee, and Mayan cultures. Though that makes the spear thing even weirder as that is mainly a Central African thing. Maybe Southern depending on how you classify the Zulu military.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:43
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I feel that we'll probably get the most educated look at Wakanda in the new Black Panther series.
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Dec 5, 2015 06:33
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Oh, I am definitely intrigued by that! Have they announced the artist yet?
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Dec 5, 2015 08:08
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Luchacabra posted:Oh, I am definitely intrigued by that! Brian Stelfreeze. It looks good.
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Dec 5, 2015 08:16
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