Star Citizen: Big MoMA's House

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Daztek: Jun 2, 2006

They need to hire people to restart the servers every 30 minutes.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:21

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 22:15

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

Daztek posted:

They need to hire people to replace the servers every 30 minutes.

ftfy

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:23

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Ragequit posted:

quote:
If they ever release anything resembling a "game", we'd be looking at something that could've been made for $20m. Which means they get to keep all that money. Legally. That pisses me off to no end; and I'm never - ever - going to let them get away with it.

You think they can make the game for double what your current game costs? That seems to be lowballing a bit. A lot of superfluous poo poo costs a lot of superfluous money! You have said in the past that this hasn't been personal and you are doing it for the good of gaming/morality/something but it has been sounding super personal lately.

Yes, I know how it looks. But it's all about perception. Which is why when people bring up this "personal" angle, I point them to this. For the record.

And no, I'm not lowballing it at all. They didn't need 300-500 people + $100m to make this game. That's the whole sordid story right there. It all ends up being a) bad management b) poor dev choices c) and possibly fraud

I've managed to get by with less than $15m thus far, and almost five* years later, with a team of less than 20 (around 16 at its peak). And with aircraft, then vehicles getting unlocked by end of Jan, we would be 95% of the way there.

They keep bitching about LOD, but take a look at this. We're making steady progress, very few crashes etc. Because, like all my games, I am laser focused on precisely what it is I am building and bugs, tweaks etc are not something I leave to chance or throw on the back-burner.

And through all that, in order to offset costs, I managed** to put together a Unity4 multi-platform RTS game, based on the same IP and assets, which was just released on Xbox One last week. Here are some guys playing it. And that cost less than $500K to do.

The sad reality is that with crowd-funding, and how this whole farce has played out, croberts seemingly has no incentive to do anything different, let alone deliver anything. The rushed state of all these modules is very simple: they're trying to cobble everything together, as quickly as possible, in order to stave off any legal action (from private citizens like myself, State officials like the AG, Fed officials like the FTC etc) by hiding behind a 100% legal premise: no guarantee of performance. If they can get every promised bulletpoint into a lovely game, regardless of condition, they've "won".

Choice quotes from the current (I am 100% certain that they are going to change this again come 2016 due to the delivery clause) ToS

quote:

For the avoidance of doubt, in consideration of RSI�s good faith efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Game with the funds raised, you agree that any Pledge amounts applied against the Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not RSI is able to complete and deliver the Game and/or the pledge items. In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost. In consideration of the promises by RSI hereunder, you agree that you shall irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any Pledge that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost in accordance with the above.
===
NOTHING IN THESE TERMS OF SERVICE LIMITS OR EXCLUDES OUR LIABILITY FOR ANYTHING THAT CANNOT BE EXCLUDED BY APPLICABLE LAW. SUBJECT TO THE FOREGOING, TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT THE USE OF THE GAME, THE WEBSITE, OR ANY OF THE OTHER RSI SERVICES, THE RSI SOFTWARE, AND THE INTERNET IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. RSI SERVICES, RSI SOFTWARE, RSI�S PRODUCTS AND THIRD PARTY SERVICES AND PRODUCTS ARE PROVIDED ON AN �AS IS� AND �AS AVAILABLE� BASIS FOR YOUR USE, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, UNLESS SUCH WARRANTIES MAY NOT BE EXCLUDED BY LAW IN WHICH CASE SUCH WARRANTIES SHALL BE EXCLUDED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW. RSI PROVIDES THE RSI SERVICES ON A COMMERCIALLY REASONABLE BASIS AND DOES NOT WARRANT MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS OR USE THE RSI SERVICES (OR ANY PART THEREOF) AT TIMES OR LOCATIONS OF YOUR CHOOSING, OR THAT RSI WILL HAVE ADEQUATE CAPACITY FOR THE RSI SERVICES AS A WHOLE OR IN ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA. USE OF THE RSI SERVICES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ALL COMMUNICATION FEATURES AVAILABLE VIA THE RSI SERVICES, IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK.

Anyone who hasn't already got a refund, is going to be well and truly sorry before long. It's coming. You were all warned. Repeatedly.

* yes, I am counting 2010 (even though we completely changed the engine in 2011) because a) we didn't throw out the assets b) I'm not a loving idiot like croberts
** a bunch of rear end-clowns sniping from behind /r/DerekSmart apparently are of the opinion that we didn't develop LOD Tactics. Go figure.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:25

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Sedisp posted:

The pizza barge was late one day and well... you don't have to be able to outrun Ben you just need to outrun the guy behind you.

Wasn't there some great fan fic in this thread about Ben? Where is that.....

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:26

EightAce: May 10, 2015; Watch it all come crashing down on his head and wonder why any of us gave him money in the first place.

Very telling that the million high sausage bar or whatever the gently caress it is , is squarely aimed at appeasing backers . Someone somewhere has sat down and realized that they have hosed the average autistic virgin for as much cash as they are going to get and now its all about making the super whales feel special, with some exclusive JPEGS of a bar. Its absolutely disgusting even by their standards and pretty much a microcosm of the entire farcical undertaking. Anyone who backed this for a few shillings and wanted it to be a nostalgic revising of their youthful enjoyment of Wing commander by now must realize what this is . Utterly appalling and very transparent

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:32

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Every time a backer checks into the thread after backing in 2012 or whenever the gently caress it was and immediately starts asking how to get a refund...

In life, it's the little pleasures that count.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:34

EightAce: May 10, 2015; Watch it all come crashing down on his head and wonder why any of us gave him money in the first place.

[quote="Omi-Polari" post="453879454"]
Every time a backer checks into the thread after backing in 2012 or whenever the gently caress it was and immediately starts asking how to get a refund...

...A tear falls down Bens cheek and into his 'Big boy' gulp bucket of Pepsi, and he slowly crams another Calzone into his bearded chops ....

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:42

Ragequit: Jun 1, 2006; Lipstick Apathy

D_Smart posted:

Yes, I know how it looks. But it's all about perception. Which is why when people bring up this "personal" angle, I point them to this. For the record.

And no, I'm not lowballing it at all. They didn't need 300-500 people + $100m to make this game. That's the whole sordid story right there. It all ends up being a) bad management b) poor dev choices c) and possibly fraud

I've managed to get by with less than $15m thus far, and almost five* years later, with a team of less than 20 (around 16 at its peak). And with aircraft, then vehicles getting unlocked by end of Jan, we would be 95% of the way there.

They keep bitching about LOD, but take a look at this. We're making steady progress, very few crashes etc. Because, like all my games, I am laser focused on precisely what it is I am building and bugs, tweaks etc are not something I leave to chance or throw on the back-burner.

And through all that, in order to offset costs, I managed** to put together a Unity4 multi-platform RTS game, based on the same IP and assets, which was just released on Xbox One last week. Here are some guys playing it. And that cost less than $500K to do.

The sad reality is that with crowd-funding, and how this whole farce has played out, croberts seemingly has no incentive to do anything different, let alone deliver anything. The rushed state of all these modules is very simple: they're trying to cobble everything together, as quickly as possible, in order to stave off any legal action (from private citizens like myself, State officials like the AG, Fed officials like the FTC etc) by hiding behind a 100% legal premise: no guarantee of performance. If they can get every promised bulletpoint into a lovely game, regardless of condition, they've "won".

Choice quotes from the current (I am 100% certain that they are going to change this again come 2016 due to the delivery clause) ToS

Anyone who hasn't already got a refund, is going to be well and truly sorry before long. It's coming. You were all warned. Repeatedly.

* yes, I am counting 2010 (even though we completely changed the engine in 2011) because a) we didn't throw out the assets b) I'm not a loving idiot like croberts
** a bunch of rear end-clowns sniping from behind /r/DerekSmart apparently are of the opinion that we didn't develop LOD Tactics. Go figure.

A simple "No, it's not personal." would have been a lot more believable than all of the text and links above. Holy moly.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:43

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Unfunny Poster posted:

loving idiot. I only started making this "noise" in July. The Star Citizen community has been in shitter long before that.

Denial is pretty much the side-effects of drinking delusion Kool-Aid

Meanwhile, a bunch of them are parked on /r/DerekSmart/ dedicated to taking pot-shots. And they want to cry foul? Just wait.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:46

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Ragequit posted:

A simple "No, it's not personal." would have been a lot more believable than all of the text and links above. Holy moly.

I had two responses. I just rolled them into one.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:48

FatherChristmas: Nov 9, 2012; 'Tis the season

Karl, fucketh thyself.

Loiosh posted:

Hey Zen, we gave it a go for about an hour and a half.

I'd say without question that the game as it stands is entirely unready for group play of any sort. Out of a few dozen attempts we managed to join a server 3 times. We did actually get to fool around in a Constellation on 3 attempts, but:

Attempt #1: We both get into the ship successfully, but as I'm picking a target to QD to, my client crashes. He's stuck out in the middle of space before the ship despawns and then quits about a minute later when I cannot rejoin that server due to the party system not working correctly (you have to manually leave the party, then rejoin or else it will think you are still in a dead party).

Attempt #2: I get in a fresh server and spin up my Constellation while waiting for him to join. He has my old EE975 system from 2009 with a 680, so his join times are roughly 30 seconds longer than mine. I fly around Olisar dodging interested parties trying to EVA and takeover. Once he loads, I head over to the pad, but forget to middle click to select a landing pad and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HFc6x_AtWs smash the lower turret into the landing pad. After rotating around like a I manage to land on a second attempt (middle mouse button!) and my buddy joins. PLUS a friendly recruit who will totally not the first opportunity he gets. We take off to visit the repair station. It works! Except for the sparky ship still sparking, all the turrets are fixed. We then head to a station while our new-found friend is busy playing with the shield systems and after dispatching some unfortunate pirates, and getting the Sparky Ship, do an EVA. At this point, he crashes, - For some reason my new friend does not take over the ship while I'm out EVAing and I tell him to take it while we go back to trying to get into the same instance again.

Attempt #3: As I'm saying: 'I'm giving this one more go before giving up for the night' we connect and manage to join up. Connie acquired, friends together we fly off to a station. The turret works! Except neither of us know how to get the UI up on top so he has to eye ball tiny ships rapidly moving to shoot them. After Sparky the Connie lights up again, my client locks up.

TL;DR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJLzAzjxc8A&t=12s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84zY33QZO5o&t=2s

So yeah, I'm considering going ahead and asking for a refund. Need to think on it a bit more, because there were moments of fun, but way too hard to get right now.

Hey, it's nice to see you came around. Like I said, you're way too rational to be lumped in with those cultizens.

You might wanna get a chargeback.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:50

neonbregna: Aug 20, 2007

serious norman posted:

Wait, so the position of stuff in game is determined by file location on the HDD?

Think of the laziest way to implement something. Congratulations your a star citizen developer

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:51

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

I bet it trusts the client completely too so if the game ever comes out it will be full of hacks.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:57

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

I like how players with multicrew ships now spend a few minutes searching the landing pad for other players before sprinting to try and get into it as quickly as possible.

I just hide in the passageway. The time it takes for the freaking elevator to open and drop down is all the time I need to sprint out there and jump on it.

I should try screenshotting some of the angry chats they all caps scream at me while I'm crashing their jpeg.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:57

1000 Sweaty Rikers: Oct 13, 2005

spacetoaster posted:

I should try screenshotting some of the angry chats they all caps scream at me while I'm crashing their jpeg.

Please do this.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 15:58

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

spacetoaster posted:

I like how players with multicrew ships now spend a few minutes searching the landing pad for other players before sprinting to try and get into it as quickly as possible.

I just hide in the passageway. The time it takes for the freaking elevator to open and drop down is all the time I need to sprint out there and jump on it.

I should try screenshotting some of the angry chats they all caps scream at me while I'm crashing their jpeg.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3wxnkx/playing_with_friends_is_impossible/

hahaha, it takes them hours to manage to get with a friend in the same ship and when they finally do we are right there to steal their poo poo or blow them up the first chance we get.

This is loving glorious. :qq:

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:00

Dusty Lens: Jul 1, 2015; All Glory unto the Stimpire. Give up your arms and legs and embrace the beautiful agony of electricity that doubles in pain every second.

Is there an in game emote where you fall to your knees and shake your fist at the sky yet?

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:02

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

MeLKoR posted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3wxnkx/playing_with_friends_is_impossible/

hahaha, it takes them hours to manage to get with a friend in the same ship and when they finally do we are right there to steal their poo poo or blow them up the first chance we get.

This is loving glorious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG_6CopW9GQ

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:13

Ragequit: Jun 1, 2006; Lipstick Apathy

Wafflz posted:

I bet it trusts the client completely too so if the game ever comes out it will be full of hacks.

That would be great - has anyone tried CheatEngine to play around with values?

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:14

SelenicMartian: Sep 14, 2013; Sometimes it's not the bomb that's retarded.

Dusty Lens posted:

Is there an in game emote where you fall to your knees and shake your fist at the sky yet?

If they add it the game will realise the sky is everywhere, then it'll get confused and animate the fist shaking at the groin while the arms show the current time.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:16

hanales: Nov 3, 2013

Omi-Polari posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG_6CopW9GQ

You should always link the original video for that song, so everyone can be horrified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU0Ypufo6BM

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:21

Beet Wagon: Oct 19, 2015

Just Wait Citizen - coming in 2017 probably. Two weeks at the latest.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:29

it dont matter: Aug 29, 2008

Omi-Polari posted:

Every time a backer checks into the thread after backing in 2012 or whenever the gently caress it was and immediately starts asking how to get a refund...

In life, it's the little pleasures that count.

Those are almost as good as the occasional Star Citizen virgin who wanders in and can't believe they're charging thousands for spaceship jpegs.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:29

Sicarii: Sep 29, 2011

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:39

Shadowlyger: Nov 5, 2009; ElvUI super fan at your service!

Ask me any and all questions about UI customization via PM

So XCX has occupied a lot of time for the past few days, what all has gone down in this thread over the last... uhh... fifty pages or so? What new and interesting ways has the pre-alpha managed to implode upon itself? Anything funny/interesting out of Derek?

This thread needs a highlight reel or something.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:40

Daztek: Jun 2, 2006

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

Yes, by Chris Roberts

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:41

TTerrible: Jul 15, 2005

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

Get a chargeback going immediately.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:42

FatherChristmas: Nov 9, 2012; 'Tis the season

Karl, fucketh thyself.

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

Get a refund, citizen.
Edit: Oops, beat to the punch.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:43

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

Shadowlyger posted:

So XCX has occupied a lot of time for the past few days, what all has gone down in this thread over the last... uhh... fifty pages or so? What new and interesting ways has the pre-alpha managed to implode upon itself? Anything funny/interesting out of Derek?

Ben Lesnick is fat
Derek is taking this personally/impersonally
Forbes and a couple of other 'print' publications are taking an interest
Two weeks

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:46

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Man, this guy is really angry about what we were supposed to get.

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

No, it's all real. And it's all absurd.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:48

it dont matter: Aug 29, 2008

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

Do you enjoy playing a shonky tech demo where you can laugh at autists raging impotently in a chat window while you fly off in their spaceship before it glitches and throws you into a space station and then the whole server crashes? Because if so Chris Roberts has the game for you.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:50

Shadowlyger: Nov 5, 2009; ElvUI super fan at your service!

Ask me any and all questions about UI customization via PM

Hav posted:

Ben Lesnick is fat
Derek is taking this personally/impersonally
Forbes and a couple of other 'print' publications are taking an interest
Two weeks

No amusing videos/pictures?

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:54

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

alphabettitouretti posted:

Do you enjoy playing a shonky tech demo where you can laugh at autists raging impotently in a chat window while you fly off in their spaceship before it glitches and throws you into a space station and then the whole server crashes? Because if so Chris Roberts has the game for you.

It's a doozy

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:54

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

Honestly I can't decide if the OP is an onion article or not. I glanced over some other stuff like Chris Roberts' response to The Escapist and it all seems totally ridiculous. Am I being trolled

Forget about D_Smart, he's imaterial to the fact that the game you were sold will never be, and the more they try the worse it will get. The entire SC experience can be resumed as "shhhh shhhh no tears now, just jpegs" and they can't even deliver on the "no tears" part.

... or don't. You might want to stick around and go whale griefing. But if you're not invested in trolling them at this point I'd say bail.

MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Dec 15, 2015

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:55

a whole buncha crows: May 8, 2003; WHEN WE DON'T KNOW WHO TO HATE, WE HATE OURSELVES.-SA USER NATION (AKA ME!)

Derek is totally one hundred percent right that they released 'alpha' because they had to release something. I just wish everyone would stop calling it an alpha it's a tech demo, it is the bare basic engine with some basic interactions and a couple of the ships.

They have so so so so so much left to add - so loving much! 90% of this game is not implemented, nobody is testing an alpha.

It's such an amazing con

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:58

Renegret: May 26, 2007; THANK YOU FOR CALLING HELP DOG, INC.

YOUR POSITION IN THE QUEUE IS *pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt*

Cat Army Sworn Enemy

MeLKoR posted:

# ? Dec 15, 2015 16:59

AP: Jul 12, 2004; One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them; Grimey Drawer

It's crashing a lot more today.

Still at least I can say I played during the best days just like MWO.

# ? Dec 15, 2015 17:03

Berious: Nov 13, 2005

MeLKoR posted:

Only if they gently caress you around making you wait weeks or offer you 50% because reasons then get a chargeback

# ? Dec 15, 2015 17:05

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Shadowlyger posted:

No amusing videos/pictures?

# ? Dec 15, 2015 17:10

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 25, 2024 22:15

G0RF: Mar 19, 2015; Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.

Sicarii posted:

Oh hello I'm new

I backed when it was still a kickstarter because spaceship games werent really a thing back then. I haven't even played it yet because my PC is 8360km away.

I'm assuming there is no TL;DR about this D. Smart thing (who seems a little bitter) and I'll just go on being happy that SC has proved that there's a spaceship game market.

The TL:DR version of any Derek Smart missive is:

quote:

"I predicted this in my blog post in July. Chris is an egomaniac and fool and Sandi is a liar and much, much worse. The game as sold will never be delivered. I gave them a chance to make things right but they wanted war, so now we're at war. They have less than $12M in the bank now. That's him in the wheelchair. THE END. Just wait."

# ? Dec 15, 2015 17:17

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