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Decades posted:Caught EBI 5. I'm just gonna come right out and say it. I don't care what anyone else thinks. Garry Tonan is good at jiu jitsu. Apologies Mr Tonon for misspelling your name. Please don't tear my knees apart with your terrifying powers. So what's the consensus on his move to mma? Will he accomplish anything significant? Will Hall? How bout Kron or Rodolfo or MacKenzie Dern or Buchecha or Gabi Garcia? Will Drysdale or Galvao get anything going this time if they try again? And will there be anyone left to compete in jiu jitsu in a few years? I feel like it's a pretty safe bet that everyone I just named will get boxed up by nobodies in the near/mid future, and that seems like a waste and bums me out. Hopefully I have no idea what I'm talking about. Decades fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 21:49
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I'm not worried about Gabi Garcia because of the size factor but I can't say I'm too hopeful towards the prospects of the others.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:51
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Odddzy posted:I'm not worried about Gabi Garcia because of the size factor but I can't say I'm too hopeful towards the prospects of the others. I hope the others learn from her example - true mastery of combat is competing in a division that doesn't exist. If anything I think Dern may have a chance for related reasons, on top of being obscenely good. I'm most worried for Buchecha if only because he seems like such a sweet guy. I half remember an interview from a couple years back when he was asked if he'd ever make the transition, and he just kinda laughed it off because it was so obvious that he didn't have the personality/temperament for it. Decades fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 21:57
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Decades posted:Apologies Mr Tonon for misspelling your name. Please don't tear my knees apart with your terrifying powers. I think rodolfo vieria will be successful in mma. I think ryan hall is going to run into issues as soon as he faces an uber-athelete. I think kron is going to run into issues as well. I'd like to see leandro lo transition to mma.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:58
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2DCAT posted:I think rodolfo vieria will be successful in mma. I think ryan hall is going to run into issues as soon as he faces an uber-athelete. I think kron is going to run into issues as well. I'd like to see leandro lo transition to mma. For hall it isn't even an uber-athlete. As seen on TUF, he's going to struggle against anyone who can apply consistent pressure to him without getting tangled up.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:05
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Up until recently I've been (naively?) pretty open to the idea that a bjj player of sufficiently high level could still make it in mma with a truly submission-based game if he/she approached it the right way. More and more lately I'm thinking that the pendulum has really swung in the direction of elite striking plus capable takedown defense being the primary model of the elite mma fighter. Obviously that's nothing new and the basic model goes back to at least Chuck Liddell. But what I mean is that I think the door may have at last fully closed on anyone attempting to become an mma champion without extremely sharp striking and the decade or so (?) of striking training it takes to get there. In other words bjj aces starting mma training in their mid 20s or later are almost certainly hosed.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:53
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Decades posted:Up until recently I've been (naively?) pretty open to the idea that a bjj player of sufficiently high level could still make it in mma with a truly submission-based game if he/she approached it the right way. More and more lately I'm thinking that the pendulum has really swung in the direction of elite striking plus capable takedown defense being the primary model of the elite mma fighter. Obviously that's nothing new and the basic model goes back to at least Chuck Liddell. But what I mean is that I think the door may have at last fully closed on anyone attempting to become an mma champion without extremely sharp striking and the decade or so (?) of striking training it takes to get there. In other words bjj aces starting mma training in their mid 20s or later are almost certainly hosed. don't suppose you watched demian maia on the weekend? i think it was fatherdog who tweeted a dude who said 'over his last two dominant wins against ranked welterweight opponents, maia has absorbed two significant strikes'. maia's striking has gotten a lot better but it seems to barely even factor into his recent success. the guy is scary. and he seems to have grown a gas tank.
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Dec 15, 2015 01:18
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also "Palhares but doesnt continue holding the submission after the guy taps" would be among the top in the UFC currently but in reality he is retarded
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Dec 15, 2015 01:25
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Yeah those are both fair examples. I guess I don't see either getting to the belt (Palhares' banishment aside) but then number one in the world is probably an unfair bar.
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Dec 15, 2015 01:38
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Decades posted:Yeah those are both fair examples. I guess I don't see either getting to the belt (Palhares' banishment aside) but then number one in the world is probably an unfair bar. Didn't Weidman start training striking in 2008 and beat Silva in 2013?
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Dec 15, 2015 02:23
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Decades posted:Up until recently I've been (naively?) pretty open to the idea that a bjj player of sufficiently high level could still make it in mma with a truly submission-based game if he/she approached it the right way. More and more lately I'm thinking that the pendulum has really swung in the direction of elite striking plus capable takedown defense being the primary model of the elite mma fighter. Obviously that's nothing new and the basic model goes back to at least Chuck Liddell. But what I mean is that I think the door may have at last fully closed on anyone attempting to become an mma champion without extremely sharp striking and the decade or so (?) of striking training it takes to get there. In other words bjj aces starting mma training in their mid 20s or later are almost certainly hosed. You can go back further than Chuck Liddell to Maurice Smith.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:18
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Decades posted:Up until recently I've been (naively?) pretty open to the idea that a bjj player of sufficiently high level could still make it in mma with a truly submission-based game if he/she approached it the right way. More and more lately I'm thinking that the pendulum has really swung in the direction of elite striking plus capable takedown defense being the primary model of the elite mma fighter. Obviously that's nothing new and the basic model goes back to at least Chuck Liddell. But what I mean is that I think the door may have at last fully closed on anyone attempting to become an mma champion without extremely sharp striking and the decade or so (?) of striking training it takes to get there. In other words bjj aces starting mma training in their mid 20s or later are almost certainly hosed. in your mind what was the right way they should approach it? even if you took someone who was strong and fast with a good shot, without rudimentary striking and footwork they would likely have a lot of trouble with a lot of fighters in any division
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Dec 15, 2015 03:27
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Marching Powder posted:don't suppose you watched demian maia on the weekend? i think it was fatherdog who tweeted a dude who said 'over his last two dominant wins against ranked welterweight opponents, maia has absorbed two significant strikes'. maia's striking has gotten a lot better but it seems to barely even factor into his recent success. the guy is scary. and he seems to have grown a gas tank. Something I noticed about Maia is he was really good at transitioning from standing up to ground and down again. He flowed really well between stages and it seems like a lot of bjj guys don't do that. Him taking the single right out of guard or turtle really won him the fight, and thats happened before too. poo poo look at how he threw Chael. I always love his wrestling because it looks like jiu-jitsu standing up. I know that sounds weird but I feel like so many guys that are good at bjj suddenly change when they're standing, in the way they move and react it looks very different, Maia continues his same flow. Has anyone seen him talk about this? I am really curious how much is an accident / innate and how much is trained intentionally.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:07
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Xguard86 posted:I always love his wrestling because it looks like jiu-jitsu standing up. I know that sounds weird but I feel like so many guys that are good at bjj suddenly change when they're standing, in the way they move and react it looks very different, Maia continues his same flow. That's one of the reasons I think Garry will probably do fine at MMA. Watch some of his matches where there's a lot of wrestling; he's very comfortable in the transition between standing and ground during scrambles.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:12
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Ikantski posted:Didn't Weidman start training striking in 2008 and beat Silva in 2013? Right, but he did do it by becoming a great striker which is kind of my point. It just happened on an accelerated timescale in his case because Weidman is amazing and learns really fast, same story with his transition from wrestling to sub grappling. Pocket Billiards posted:You can go back further than Chuck Liddell to Maurice Smith. Maurice Smith ruled david carmichael posted:in your mind what was the right way they should approach it? even if you took someone who was strong and fast with a good shot, without rudimentary striking and footwork they would likely have a lot of trouble with a lot of fighters in any division It's not so much a matter of my mind but the impressions I get from guys like Rickson and Kron and Eddie Bravo (lol). In 10th planet's case I guess that means a ridiculously sophisticated guard and the ability and willingness to pull it. In Rickson and Kron's case it'd more about very solid basics and a heavy top game, but still a willingness to pull guard failing that, I'd imagine. Kron had one fight that I haven't seen so I guess we'll see. Then there's the leg lock guys. Maybe if you put all those experts together you get a champion level fighter. But takedowns plus top game aren't enough because you eventually run into a striker with good enough wrestling to fend you off long enough to gently caress you up. Decades fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 04:20
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Leonardo Santos just hosed up Kevin Lee standing so there's hope for bjj players yet.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:40
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Decades posted:But takedowns plus top game aren't enough because you eventually run into a striker with good enough wrestling to fend you off long enough to gently caress you up. Yes, and striker plus wrestling isn't good enough because you eventually run into a grappler with good enough wrestling to take you down long enough to gently caress you up. And striker plus bottom game isn't good enough because eventually you'll run into a wrestler with good enough sub defense to gently caress you up. I'm not sure why this is something you're applying only to BJJ aces when it's equally true of striking aces and wrestling aces.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:52
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pretty excited to start training. i joined a gym with boxing, muay thai, bjj, wrestling, and sando. I've done the muay thai and the boxing so far, going to start bjj soon. stupid question probably, but do we have a striking thread? i didnt see one
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Dec 15, 2015 04:53
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DO YALL WANT A BOXC posted:pretty excited to start training. i joined a gym with boxing, muay thai, bjj, wrestling, and sando. I've done the muay thai and the boxing so far, going to start bjj soon. There's a general martial arts thread in A/T which includes some striking talk. The Boxing and Kickboxing threads in here are more discussions of the sports themselves than technique discussion the way this one gets. There isn't currently a Striking thread with the kind of technique discussion you get in here to my knowledge, although I think there's a boxing training thread in YLLS.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:55
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fatherdog posted:I'm not sure why this is something you're applying only to BJJ aces when it's equally true of striking aces and wrestling aces. Yeah don't get me wrong, history has shown that a balanced mix is best. I do feel like advanced striking is starting to take higher priority among top mma fighters, but to some extent I'm just thinking of the current crop of champions. Among the many new champions of the last couple years, more technical striking has seemed to make the difference. It's at least what's impressed me most personally. I'm picking on jiu jitsu mostly because 1) It's topical as there's a wave of high level bjj people making or preparing for the transition lately and 2) Personal preference because I think submissions are cool. I like seeing sub oriented fighters do well, but none have quite made it to the top with that style yet, and I'm not sure that it's getting any more likely. There's less point in thinking about whether a striker with no sub grappling skills could succeed because it's way less likely.
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Dec 15, 2015 05:26
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We're definitely in an era of dominant boxers at the moment, but it always comes and goes in waves
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Dec 15, 2015 07:57
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:We're definitely in an era of dominant boxers at the moment, but it always comes and goes in waves meh. heavyweight champ is a bjj ace that is only allowed to strike freely and aggressively because he has no fear of going to the ground. light heavyweight is an olympic level wrestler (real light heavyweight champion is a lanky wrestler with not good boxing). lightweight is a bjj black belt, bantam is a good wrestler with good footwork, featherweight is a good wrestler and great grappler, etc.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:07
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I just got my ble belt. Can I spazz now?
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Dec 15, 2015 16:33
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I want to start training bjj. I don't know where to even begin or start. I have no background in anything fighting but I've got really into bjj this year and want to give it a try. I'm out in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. Anyone have a recommendation of some gyms I should check out and see?
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Dec 15, 2015 16:45
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Digital Jedi posted:I want to start training bjj. I don't know where to even begin or start. Chicago is like a super big place for BJJ from what I hear, I don't have any recommendations but you've lucked out.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:05
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Digital Jedi posted:I want to start training bjj. I don't know where to even begin or start. I think Chicago has Carlos Gracie and Pat Curran schools. Also some Basra affiliates.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:05
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Digital Jedi posted:I want to start training bjj. I don't know where to even begin or start. I also live in the Northwest 'Burbs and train at Brazil 021's Arlington Heights location under Andre Terencio. Tuesdays and Thursdays are the beginner classes and would be the good nights to drop in for your first class. http://brazil021arlingtonheights.com/ DAS Super! posted:I think Chicago has Carlos Gracie and Pat Curran schools. Also some Basra affiliates. The Carlson schools kind of splintered after Sr. died. Jr. isn't as well respected as his father. Curran's school (actually run by Jeff Curran though Pat trains there) is a good full on MMA school, but it's up in Crystal Lake. Not knowing where Digital Jedi lives exactly that could be quite a drive, it's pretty close to the WI border. The Brasa affiliate you're referring to is run by Comprido himself and is out in Bloomingdale (near Schaumburg/Hoffman Estates, where the Sears Center is, the arena where Hendo knocked out Fedor.) Sprecherscrow fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 17:12
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Digital Jedi posted:I want to start training bjj. I don't know where to even begin or start. It shouldn't be hard to find a place. Before you go in, look at a couple different places, verify that the people teaching are legit BJJ black belts and are in fact teaching BJJ and not Japanese Jiujitsu or just Jiujitsu. [a quick google search should suffice]. After that call up the gym and say "Hey, I'm interested in trying a class is there a time I could come do that". Try the class, if you like it stay at the place, if you don't try another gym.
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Dec 15, 2015 17:13
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Sprecherscrow posted:I also live in the Northwest 'Burbs and train at Brazil 021's Arlington Heights location under Andre Terencio. Tuesdays and Thursdays are the beginner classes and would be the good nights to drop in for your first class. That is only about 30-40 minutes from my work or home so I'm good with that. KildarX posted:It shouldn't be hard to find a place. Before you go in, look at a couple different places, verify that the people teaching are legit BJJ black belts and are in fact teaching BJJ and not Japanese Jiujitsu or just Jiujitsu. [a quick google search should suffice]. After that call up the gym and say "Hey, I'm interested in trying a class is there a time I could come do that". Try the class, if you like it stay at the place, if you don't try another gym. That is why I asked here first. I want to be sure I'm going to a legit bjj gym. I hope to stop in at a few places to see what I like or don't like.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:08
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Digital Jedi posted:That is why I asked here first. I want to be sure I'm going to a legit bjj gym. I hope to stop in at a few places to see what I like or don't like. Yeah make sure you shop around. Most places will do a free week or at least class. I think I dropped in at five different gyms before I settled on the one I'm at.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:20
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Digital Jedi posted:That is only about 30-40 minutes from my work or home so I'm good with that. Pretty much everyone in America at this point in BJJ you should be able to trace their lineage back to Helio Gracie, either directly or indirectly. In example, in my case. Helio -> Pedro Sauer -> My Coach -> Me. So it really shouldn't be hard to verify if you're worried about legit coaching.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:36
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KildarX posted:Pretty much everyone in America at this point in BJJ you should be able to trace their lineage back to Helio, either directly or indirectly. Nope.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:41
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Oh yea, forgot about Fadda. I stand corrected.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:43
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I think there might be a couple other non-Gracie's who trained direct under Maeda, but I don't know of anyone in Chicago from the non-Gracie lineages. Him saying everyone goes back to Helio is especially wrong though, on account of a lot of people going direct to Carlos Sr. instead of through Helio, especially in Chicago where there's a bunch of Carlson black belts floating around. Digital Jedi posted:That is only about 30-40 minutes from my work or home so I'm good with that. Cool. We also have a place downtown. I hardly get down there, but some people divide there time between the two. If you drop in tonight, I won't be there because I'm running a fever.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:56
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david carmichael posted:meh. heavyweight champ is a bjj ace that is only allowed to strike freely and aggressively because he has no fear of going to the ground. light heavyweight is an olympic level wrestler (real light heavyweight champion is a lanky wrestler with not good boxing). lightweight is a bjj black belt, bantam is a good wrestler with good footwork, featherweight is a good wrestler and great grappler, etc. MW champ is a guy that grew up grappling, too. Rockhold did judo as a kid, wrestled all through high school while also doing jiu jitsu and then continued on with submission grappling after school. He didn't train anything striking related until after he was already winning grappling tourneys.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:14
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KildarX posted:Pretty much everyone in America at this point in BJJ you should be able to trace their lineage back to Helio Gracie, either directly or indirectly. In example, in my case. Helio -> Pedro Sauer -> My Coach -> Me. So it really shouldn't be hard to verify if you're worried about legit coaching. I've never understood BJJ's obsession with instructor lineage. Judo is only a generation older and I don't think I've ever heard anybody ever ask how people trace back to Kano. With competition being a proving ground for effectiveness of both instructor and student why does it matter?
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Dec 15, 2015 19:32
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Digital Jedi posted:I want to start training bjj. I don't know where to even begin or start. If you are way in the Northwest, I've heard Team Curran is great. And my school Team Redzovic has an affiliate in Deerfield. I haven't been out there, but I've heard great things about Barry.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:36
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Sprecherscrow posted:I think there might be a couple other non-Gracie's who trained direct under Maeda, but I don't know of anyone in Chicago from the non-Gracie lineages. Him saying everyone goes back to Helio is especially wrong though, on account of a lot of people going direct to Carlos Sr. instead of through Helio, especially in Chicago where there's a bunch of Carlson black belts floating around. Aye, some of Fabricio and Tanque guys are slowing moving to America now too, and they go back through Reyson / Carlos Sr. / Maeda.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:39
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Thoguh posted:I've never understood BJJ's obsession with instructor lineage. Judo is only a generation older and I don't think I've ever heard anybody ever ask how people trace back to Kano. With competition being a proving ground for effectiveness of both instructor and student why does it matter? Because Judo doesn't have a cult of personality built around a specific family that rose to prominence via a popular PPV strategy, and because by all accounts which I've seen Kano was a pretty chill dude who wasn't really interested in self-promotion. e. also because there aren't that many people out there claiming to be fake Judo black belts. Mind you there are people like Ali Abdel-Aziz or (sad to say) Gene Lebell who make claims of having ridiculously high ranks in Judo, but because of the way the Kodokan is structured, it's quick and easy to see whether the centralized Judo academy awarded them that rank (pro tip: if the person claiming to be a red belt or higher rank isn't a septuagenarian Japanese person, it's fake). fake second edit to clarify what I'm saying about Judo Gene: I checked his rank one day out of curiosity, and his wikipedia page claims a 10th dan but it was awarded by an American organization that produces rank certificates for any martial art based on years of participation and puts clipart dragons on them. I'm not saying that Judo Gene is a fraud or that his judo isn't legit cool, I'm just saying that he's not an actual 10th dan in Judo by any real criteria. CommonShore fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 19:45
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CommonShore posted:Because Judo doesn't have a cult of personality built around a specific family that rose to prominence via a popular PPV strategy, and because by all accounts which I've seen Kano was a pretty chill dude who wasn't really interested in self-promotion. If Gene Lebell is not 10th dan by any criteria, then make new criteria.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:16
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