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yeah windows on a laptop has been significantly worse than linux on a laptop in my experience.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:19
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BobHoward posted:this. somehow the linux world still thinks that its a good idea for distros to be part of the release cycle of application software xdg-app will fix this and it'll be great. download app binaries from the developer directly and they run in a secure sandbox. if the sandboxed app wants to open one of your files (for example) then this causes the sandbox to display an Open File dialog. You have to actually go out and pick a file from this GUI for the sandboxed app to have access to it. quote:, and also that it's a good idea to have competing standards for every part of the stack kinda but freedesktop.org aka xdg have been standardizing this for a long time and all the important poo poo interoperates irrespective of whether you're using a Gtk+ app or a Qt app. mostly the differences are in look-and-feel and Windows is just as much of a shitquilt of conflicting UI fads that have come and gone over the years. Only real difference is that the file open dialogs are consistent (but see above re: xdg-app's sandbox and its security gate file open dialog).
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Dec 21, 2015 02:26
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like i truly deeply believe that linux will one day have a great desktop environment, and that it will be evolved in some way from the really good work people are currently doing. we're just not there yet and we wont be until someone comes along and does ubuntu but good this time
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Dec 21, 2015 02:30
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of course it will take an entire decade for it to get buyin from the linux community as a whole, as people will need to be dragged out of the stoneage kicking and screaming by someone like lennart computering who will receive death threats for their contribution to open sourece
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Dec 21, 2015 02:31
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also first strike against kde: had a really hard time making my usb audio dac (i use it because it was cheap and the lineout on my thinkpad is poorly shielded) work for whatever reason,. i mashed on some settings and now it works i guess but i dont know why
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Dec 21, 2015 02:32
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if you're going to use linux on the desktop i'd probably recommend either Fedora or Arch depending on how saucy you're feeling. There's no GUI installer for Arch, but again GUI installers for Linux basically boil down to "configure your system using some pointlessly crippled one-off tools instead of just using the tools you'd normally use to perform this configuration".
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Dec 21, 2015 02:33
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In my ideal future world there are no Linux distributions, and that lack of a distribution is called Arch because the distribution in question is literally just a package manager, and Arch packagers gently caress with upstream code as little as possible.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:35
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arch is good if you're trying to learn linux but i'd avoid it if your job depends on being able to occasionally install new things without having to flatten/reinstall every few months
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Dec 21, 2015 02:35
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:arch is good if you're trying to learn linux but i'd avoid it if your job depends on being able to occasionally install new things without having to flatten/reinstall every few months you just described every non-rolling release distro.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:36
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well sure but a common experience for me in arch was running pacman update (or whatever) and having it absolutely destroy my system because they redid the architecture. they don't warn you about it because their policy is that it's your responsibility to make sure that running an upgrade won't break your system. which is fine because that's their policy and they're upfront about it but it sucks for every day use. it's been a few years since this happened to me so i'm sure i'm misremembering exactly what happened but that was the end of my archlinux experience.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:42
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Mr Dog posted:xdg-app will fix this and it'll be great. download app binaries from the developer directly and they run in a secure sandbox. if the sandboxed app wants to open one of your files (for example) then this causes the sandbox to display an Open File dialog. You have to actually go out and pick a file from this GUI for the sandboxed app to have access to it. ah so they decided to copy the greatest os in the world, mac oh ess ten powerbox (the os x open file dialog for sandboxed apps) is like four five years old now (ps its not always a good user experience, turns out lots of desktop applications are a bit clumsy to use in sandboxed form. it has its benefits but even apple hasn't made it totally smooth) (pps for a taste of the problems to come, https://lwn.net/Articles/654128/ should disabuse any sane person of the notion that xdg-app is going to be smooth sailing and/or delivered anytime soon. to do this right you need the important part of os x -- the single unifying application framework used by all the important gui apps. apple only kinda made sandboxed apps acceptably invisible to the user even with the advantage of having cocoa, trying to silo all the competing shitshows in linux without actually resolving the core issues is likely to make an even bigger clusterfuck) BobHoward fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 02:43
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:also first strike against kde: had a really hard time making my usb audio dac (i use it because it was cheap and the lineout on my thinkpad is poorly shielded) work for whatever reason,. i mashed on some settings and now it works i guess but i dont know why i don't like the kde mixer, it pretends you might not be using pulseaudio and hides stuff that would be useful to have. i use 'pavucontrol' instead. it's a gtk mixer that only supports pulseaudio, so it presents a very pa-centric view of the world, and everything is easier that way.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:11
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i don't like the kde mixer, it pretends you might not be using pulseaudio and hides stuff that would be useful to have. yeah this is the solution that i googled for and found. i remember using it way back in the day.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:13
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Mr Dog posted:xdg-app will fix this and it'll be great. download app binaries from the developer directly and they run in a secure sandbox. if the sandboxed app wants to open one of your files (for example) then this causes the sandbox to display an Open File dialog. You have to actually go out and pick a file from this GUI for the sandboxed app to have access to it. i don't think this will actually work, but i'm happy to see where it goes network isolation and sandboxing is pretty much the only way i will be happy to let upstream randos manage all their dependencies inside of a hairy rear end chroot / binary / whatever
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Dec 21, 2015 03:13
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did you guys hear, you can break into ANY linux system just by pressing backspace 48 times https://motherboard.vice.com/read/hack-into-a-linux-computer-by-hitting-the-backspace-28-times
bobbilljim fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 03:20
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That article is bad!
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Dec 21, 2015 03:34
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if you're not using a pc with EFI firmware at this point you done hosed up and if you do have EFI firmware then you should be using systemd-boot
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Dec 21, 2015 03:41
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EFI AND TPM IS A DRM HONEYPOT BARRRRTGHGHGHHHHHHHHBHBHH
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Dec 21, 2015 03:49
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bobbilljim posted:did you guys hear, you can break into ANY linux system just by pressing backspace 48 times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt5xhi6MTpE&t=26
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Dec 21, 2015 04:12
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BobHoward posted:to do this right you need the important part of os x -- the single unifying application framework used by all the important gui apps. and this is why Linux will ultimately never have a great user experience as a desktop OS if a distribution had said back in 1994-1996 "we're going to build on GNUstep and gently caress everything else" and then in 1997-1998 said "we're going to work hard be as source-compatible as we can with what Apple does with the stuff they got from NeXT" and then stuck to that, there might a distribution today that actually doesn't suck but because a bunch of idiots 20 years ago thought "mechanism, not policy" was a good idea, Linux on the desktop today still has to deal with potentially every app using a different UI framework and the stuff underneath all that is an unbelievable mess as well
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Dec 21, 2015 04:20
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woah, more breaking news guys, you can break into ANY windows system with the recovery disk
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Dec 21, 2015 04:30
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bobbilljim posted:woah, more breaking news guys, you can break into ANY windows system with the recovery disk not if you use usb killer 2.0
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Dec 21, 2015 04:41
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eschaton posted:and this is why Linux will ultimately never have a great user experience as a desktop OS not really again, windows has qt apps, osx has qt apps. there's win95 themed apps, .net themed apps, vista themed, metro themed. even osx has undergone a tremendous amount of visual evolution from the weird old pinstripes and water blobs look to the style it presents today; remember back when a bunch of apps were all brushed metal for whatever reason? One Toolkit To Rule Them All actually doesn't loving matter, as X11 didn't call for it so Wayland doesn't call for it either. This is actually a good thing.
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Dec 21, 2015 06:59
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yeah bored devs making crappy business software will always find a way to gently caress with the visual style no matter the platform or number of UI toolkits
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Dec 21, 2015 07:31
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if you have staff developers, then they'll develop something. if the program is good and needs no more work, then sometimes they'll make it bad just to have something to fix. like firefighters eventually become arsonists if business is bad.
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Dec 21, 2015 07:40
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even apple apps don't look the same. itunes and quicktime look nothing alike. and apple has some of the best higs in the business. they just don't follow for their in-house apps, like, ever. garageband and imovie (logic pro and final cut) look nothing alike. "looking the same" and "consistency" are social problems, not technical ones
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Dec 21, 2015 07:47
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"consistency" is a quality that i'm frequently asked to maintain. its difficult to do when the existing products made terrible choices, some of which conflict with the design goals of your project. its like how the noise factor in the first stage of an amplifier will have the greatest effect on the noise of the amplifier as a whole. OTOH idk why the over-all look and feel can't be consistent. the apple stuff is pretty weird
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Dec 21, 2015 08:03
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Mr Dog posted:osx has qt apps. and they generally neither look nor feel like native OS X apps quote:even osx has undergone a tremendous amount of visual evolution from the weird old pinstripes and water blobs look to the style it presents today; remember back when a bunch of apps were all brushed metal for whatever reason? hmm good point, of course you realize you're dead wrong right? properly implemented OS X apps change with the system because they actually do use one toolkit to rule them all apps that use other toolkits tend to look like whatever some second-rate designer thought OS X looked like at the time of the app's release, because they just try to mimic it at a superficial level
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Dec 21, 2015 09:03
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Suspicious Dish posted:even apple apps don't look the same. itunes and quicktime look nothing alike. and apple has some of the best higs in the business. they just don't follow for their in-house apps, like, ever. garageband and imovie (logic pro and final cut) look nothing alike. there is a design language consistency between these apps still, even when you take applications like Garage Band and Final Cut into account and because the applications are still all based on the same underlying frameworks, they still have all of the same subtle and not so subtle behaviors despite their visual differences there was a time when iTunes and Finder were Carbon apps and a lot of text editing gestures worked slightly differently (or work at all, like control-T for transpose). some of this was corrected by enhancing Carbon to match Cocoa, but it was never quite the same. when everything finally moved to Cocoa, all of this was cleaned up—and it wasn't just editing gestures or how the insertion point rendered, it was also things like support for the find pasteboard, the exact delay and behavior for drag and drop, how selections in tables/lists works, and so on consistency goes way beyond just visual style and unless you're sharing code you're going to get it wrong in some way
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Dec 21, 2015 09:12
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celeron 300a posted:xserve used apache, which means an official endorsement from stebe himself I'm still fuckin pissed that these died before iOS development hit full speed and now i have to rack Mac Minis in the datacenter
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Dec 21, 2015 10:20
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BobHoward posted:anything does, because windows 10 is the flattest ui ive ever seen. microsoft clearly wanted to do an elegant/minimalist design but, being microsoft, delivered something that looks like programmers did all the widget art in five minutes oh please, they used many hours making those widgets, tweaking every detail obsessively. unfortunately, being programmers, they have no taste.
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Dec 21, 2015 14:33
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i don't like the kde mixer, it pretends you might not be using pulseaudio and hides stuff that would be useful to have. biggest issue i had was that changing the device volume in kmix also changed the app volume for all apps, but it scaled really oddly, so if you went from say 100% volume to 50% volume and then back to 100% the app sound levels would be different than when you started, so basically you'd have to go to pavucontrol and change back the app volume settings manually every time, since kmix didn't always show app volume levels (it did so kinda randomly) it's worked fine this last year or so though, both in regards to not loving around with other volume settings and showing app volumes in the mixer
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Dec 21, 2015 15:25
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Wheany posted:oh please, they used many hours making those widgets, tweaking every detail obsessively.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:48
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MALE SHOEGAZE posted:
Tankakern posted:that's some horrible theming, it looks like this: its a really early tech preview version, and a ton of stuff is just broken at the moment in addition to the window decorations looking ugly and such
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Dec 21, 2015 18:37
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eschaton posted:consistency goes way beyond just visual style and unless you're sharing code you're going to get it wrong in some way yes, non visual consistency & the general virtue of code sharing is what i was trying to get at. wasn't referring to ui theme at all Suspicious Dish posted:even apple apps don't look the same. itunes and quicktime look nothing alike. and apple has some of the best higs in the business. they just don't follow for their in-house apps, like, ever. garageband and imovie (logic pro and final cut) look nothing alike. a couple years ago, apple added a feature to cocoa text entry where holding down an alpha key doesn't generate repeats, instead it pops up a little menu with all the dïãčrîtìcåł mark variants of that letter. it worked in every third party cocoa app on day 1 without so much as a recompile the reason i brought this up was the xdg-app discussion. idk the details but i do know that apple's been designing xpc (the os x ipc library designed to support privilege separation) to integrate well into cocoa, because of course they would. same goes for powerbox and related sandboxing features like security scoped bookmarks (tokens an app can record which let them preserve access to a file or other resource outside the sandbox across process termination and restart, so that the user doesn't have to re-pick the file or whatever). unlike text entry app authors don't get new features for no effort here, but with essentially all the important apps on cocoa apple has a much easier path laid out for its third party devs to sandboxify and priv separate their apps also os x app authors had the ability to package and distribute apps without going through apple and without having to support twenty different ways of doing everything on march 24 2001. i didn't say it earlier but am bemused by the fact that (if mr dog is to be trusted) it's gonna take sandboxing to force the linux world to finally adopt this essential desktop os feature
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Dec 21, 2015 18:59
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really this is because everybody is conflating orthogonal things, and of course their designs suffer as a result docker and xdg-app are both guilty of trying to solve one problem (distributing software with the right dependencies included) and another unrelated problem (like sandboxing or separation between services) at the same time i still dream of a day when we'll have (a) libraries use relative paths to look up their files, instead of hard coded absolute paths like /usr/share (b) package managers capable of managing packages in places other than root (c) a maven-like build system that's happy to download packages to a project directory and build executables that use those instead of whatever is system-wide it'd get us a 1000% better development environment, and give us a perfect technical solution to the dependencies problem that both docker and xdg-app (and whatever else!) could make use of. i think it isn't even that hard to hack together a system that sort of works like this (e.g. I think the right flags will make dpkg or rpm install to arbitrary paths, rpath is enough to find libraries in different locations, making the build tool is just making the build tool and doesn't require outside buy-in) but I shudder to think of what the reaction would be if I tried to send a patch to, say, gtk to use dlinfo to figure out where to look instead of hardcoding /usr/share/whatever but man, if only we could get everyone on board. it'd be so nice.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:29
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hmm. Linux.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:34
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I treat any post that actually mentions maven as a solution as a work of satire
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Dec 21, 2015 21:46
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you're gonna build gimp or the kernel with maven now? I may be a lone holdout but I would rather debug a makefile than some monstrosity that downloads unverified binaries over the internet
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Dec 21, 2015 21:48
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I stand corrected... the post says "maven-like" so I will just replace "maven-like" with "makefiles" and I am a happy clam
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Dec 21, 2015 21:50
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