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Yes, but on the other hand Wick is a massive sack of poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2015 19:47
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fool_of_sound posted:Yes, but on the other hand Wick is a massive sack of poo poo. John Wick has done more to improve my DMing than any other writer I've read, though. Because when I was a teenager and just starting I basically DMed like he did, until I had it happen to me while playing 7th Sea and realized running games that way made you an rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 28, 2015 19:49
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I was gonna say he actually wants to write a story, but well... The Last Paladin.
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Dec 28, 2015 19:49
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He did create a disease that affected a character with immunity to disease. There's not much of a clearer "oh yeah?" than that in Champions, where sheet design is 90% of the game's mechanics.
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Dec 28, 2015 19:57
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Traveller posted:I was gonna say he actually wants to write a story, but well... The Last Paladin. What's that? A novel he wrote?
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Dec 28, 2015 19:57
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A terrible short story he wrote that basically got more legs than it should have because someone wrote an MST3K parody of it.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:04
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Also when people started pointing out how bad The Last Paladin was, Jared Sorrenson got all pissy and demanded that people show off what they've written so people could make fun of it in a two-piece "you can't criticize if you don't create"/"let's see how YOU like people being critical of your work" combo.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:22
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Covok posted:I really don't get that "their sheets cannot save them" mentality. Like, does he literally mean "their main form of agency and interacting with mechanics mean nothing in the way of my desire to control everything"? Or is there more nuance to it that I'm missing? I think his reasoning is that he wants the game to be a purely mental battle of wills with the players themselves trying to outwit him/his NPCs, rather than their formal game mechanics doing the work of engaging with the game. But when he has exclusive control over the rest of the game world, their only victories are the ones he decides to give them- it isn't really a competition in a meaningful way.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:29
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Kellsterik posted:I think his reasoning is that he wants the game to be a purely mental battle of wills with the players themselves trying to outwit him/his NPCs, rather than their formal game mechanics doing the work of engaging with the game. But when he has exclusive control over the rest of the game world, their only victories are the ones he decides to give them- it isn't really a competition in a meaningful way. This, incidentally, will always be the main problem with genuine antagonistic GMing. It's really never a fair fight.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:30
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Evil Mastermind posted:Also when people started pointing out how bad The Last Paladin was, Jared Sorrenson got all pissy and demanded that people show off what they've written so people could make fun of it in a two-piece "you can't criticize if you don't create"/"let's see how YOU like people being critical of your work" combo. You don't have to be a cook to tell if you're eating poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2015 20:50
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WaywardWoodwose posted:You don't have to be a cook to tell if you're eating poo poo. Everyone has made food for himself at some point, so we are all cooks and therefore qualified to criticise other cooks.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:22
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Doresh posted:Of course they needed an excuse to justify kung-fu gorillas and kinda sorta cover Chinese mythology, so they went with a character from what is basically a comedy novel. It's a little bit like making an ape breed of wise British scholars who worship the Librarian from Discworld. I'll admit I've never read it myself, but I've never heard of Journey to the West described as 'basically a comedy novel' before. 
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Dec 28, 2015 21:39
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Crasical posted:I'll admit I've never read it myself, but I've never heard of Journey to the West described as 'basically a comedy novel' before. It kind of is. Early Wukong is a swaggering rear end, but a swaggering rear end who steals from a dragon and beats the poo poo out of most of heaven when he gets pissed. The later half of the stories slowly have him mend his ways and become enlightened.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:00
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WaywardWoodwose posted:You don't have to be a cook to tell if you're eating poo poo. Also, if someone can't tell you that your game is poo poo because they've never written one, then they shouldn't be able to tell you it's good either.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:56
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Tasoth posted:It kind of is. Early Wukong is a swaggering rear end, but a swaggering rear end who steals from a dragon and beats the poo poo out of most of heaven when he gets pissed. The later half of the stories slowly have him mend his ways and become enlightened. He also starts off trolling the gods (making himself double immortal in the process) and solves most of his problems with hilariously broken powers like super speed, a staff that can extend more or less infinitely, and the ninja duplication trick, which he at one point used to shave everyone in a town they were going to enter because people were looking for bald Buddhists like themselves. Certainly not the most serious work classic Chinese literature. Doresh fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 22:58
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WaywardWoodwose posted:You don't have to be a cook to tell if you're eating poo poo.  You said what I tried to say with my earlier rant in one sentence.
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Dec 28, 2015 23:25
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Doresh posted:He also starts off trolling the gods (making himself double immortal in the process) and solves most of his problems with hilariously broken powers like super speed, a staff that can extend more or less infinitely, and the ninja duplication trick, which he at one point used to shave everyone in a town they were going to enter because people were looking for bald Buddhists like themselves. Certainly not the most serious work classic Chinese literature. His modern portrayal also tends towards comedic trickster rather than serious treatise on the nature of divinity. I can think of at least three off the top of my head from the last 30 years.
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Dec 28, 2015 23:39
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Traveller posted:That way of "simplifying" rules in the alleged interests of roleplaying is something I've seen happen personally, and somehow it always ends with the GM just declaring things happening in the end. Because ~*storytelling*~ beats being an evil rules-bound Dungeon Master. Even when I'm all "don't pick up the dice, you auto-succeed", I'm still generally basing on the player's character sheet to justify their auto-success because they're character is supposed to be good at A Thing.
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Dec 29, 2015 00:03
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The whole "Don't judge a book by its cover." adage has always been pretty silly. We have to have some sort of filters on the media we consume or go mad, really. Most of us aren't independently wealthy enough to read the contents of a library, not that we'd likely remember it all anyway. And so, yes, we need to be able to come up with some criteria of judging, and sometimes it's because something smells like poo poo. Or has a writer we don't like. Or a premise that's offensive. I don't need to read or watch Twilight to confirm I won't like it; I've been sufficiently informed of its premise and nothing is likely to change my opinion in the near future. What's more, you don't need to read the whole of most games to get a good idea for them; they're not like novels where a shocking twist at the end brings the whole book together. You're not going to read through World > Rules > Chargen > Combat > GM Advice and suddenly once the Monster section comes around, the entire game changes. Or at least, it's so exceedingly unlikely as to not bother. You can read just about any chapter of Orkworld and have a pretty good idea whether or not the whole thing is really your bag.
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Dec 29, 2015 01:28
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The whole "Don't judge a book by its cover." adage has always been pretty silly. We have to have some sort of filters on the media we consume or go mad, really. Most of us aren't independently wealthy enough to read the contents of a library, not that we'd likely remember it all anyway. And so, yes, we need to be able to come up with some criteria of judging, and sometimes it's because something smells like poo poo. Or has a writer we don't like. Or a premise that's offensive. I don't need to read or watch Twilight to confirm I won't like it; I've been sufficiently informed of its premise and nothing is likely to change my opinion in the near future. I will actually argue that specific point: any single section is unlikely to really raise your opinion of a whole system, but a single section totally can torpedo an entire system if it's bad enough. Referring to that specific example, I know there are otherwise good systems that completely gently caress it up in the monsters/enemies section by having literal rape monsters in there.
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Dec 29, 2015 03:22
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Fair enough. But it's usually easy to discard one bad element in a game you like as long as it isn't too central.
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Dec 29, 2015 03:32
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Fair enough. But it's usually easy to discard one bad element in a game you like as long as it isn't too central. Yup, most of the time the issue there is weighing the good aspects of the system against the thought of having to preface and clarify every time you bring it up to someone else that, "no, I like it because of X and punch anyone that tries to bring up the tentacle dicks."
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Dec 29, 2015 03:55
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Yeah, going to back up LornMarkus on this. The first time I ever ran a game, I didn't read some little, tiny bits that revealed the game was creepy. Like, on the surface, it seemed like a decent, free rpg and I was new and didn't know what was good and bad yet. If you looked a bit in, you'd see the creepy bits. Got me a bad rap for a while with people at my college gaming club and a running joke my friends still bring up from time to time. So, I generally try to make sure there isn't hidden creep in any game I am going to pick up because of that.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:03
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We take that risk every two weeks and it has blown up in our faces at least once (people were happy to tell us that Cthuhlutech is bad).
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Dec 29, 2015 04:20
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theironjef posted:We take that risk every two weeks and it has blown up in our faces at least once (people were happy to tell us that Cthuhlutech is bad). Don't feel too bad about that one. CTech had a bunch of weird stuff going on and, while there was some gross stuff in the core book, they didn't start raping at maximum efficiency [0] until a few books in, if I remember correctly. [0] Didn't plan on using that phrase when I woke up this morning.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:28
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Midjack posted:Don't feel too bad about that one. CTech had a bunch of weird stuff going on and, while there was some gross stuff in the core book, they didn't start raping at maximum efficiency [0] until a few books in, if I remember correctly. Also, the elevator pitch for CTech sounds really goddamn awesome: Giant robots vs. horrible eldritch alien invaders? Hell yeah. Shame about absolutely everything about the game, mechanically and writing wise.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:31
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I sure wouldn't expect anyone to pre-emptively apologize for a game that wasn't like "FATAL" or "Varg's RPG" or "RaHoWa", especially if the real heinous stuff is in a supplement rather than the core book or is something like the charm person spell. I too bought myself a copy of Cthulhutech's core system, though I regret the purchase in hindsight. (I also regret buying Shadowrun core that year, but for wholly different reasons.)
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Dec 29, 2015 04:33
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theironjef posted:We take that risk every two weeks and it has blown up in our faces at least once (people were happy to tell us that Cthuhlutech is bad). The background of the Magical Witch Girls completely slipping under your radar was also rather surprising, even to me too.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:The background of the Magical Witch Girls completely slipping under your radar was also rather surprising, even to me too. Well, it is worth remembering their generally followed "zero research," rule. That and they did comment on the aspect of the book that is obvious to people who don't know the buzzwords of that community: those comics where the character blatantly murders people using transformations.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:The background of the Magical Witch Girls completely slipping under your radar was also rather surprising, even to me too. As I recall we did bring up some tonal issues with the whole "no repercussions, not a cartoon" style the game had, but yeah, since we don't research in advance the horrors of Lucinda had to be delivered to us later via forum and so on.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:45
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gradenko_2000 posted:The background of the Magical Witch Girls completely slipping under your radar was also rather surprising, even to me too. Can someone expound on this? I listened to the Witch Girls Adventures episode and I thought the whole brutalness of the opening comic was kinda off for an otherwise light game.
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Dec 29, 2015 04:59
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Kumaton posted:Can someone expound on this? I listened to the Witch Girls Adventures episode and I thought the whole brutalness of the opening comic was kinda off for an otherwise light game. Basically, the rpg was made by someone with a transformation feitsh and the black haired witch (Luceria?) is from his feitsh comic. This is why so much transformation occurs in the game: because the author (or was it the artist?) gets off to it. You can read more about it here!
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Dec 29, 2015 05:05
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Covok posted:Basically, the rpg was made by someone with a transformation feitsh and the black haired witch (Luceria?) is from his feitsh comic. This is why so much transformation occurs in the game: because the author (or was it the artist?) gets off to it. Holy poo poo. Is the second edition still coming out, or has it already been released, and have the scrubbed it clean or not?
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Dec 29, 2015 05:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The whole "Don't judge a book by its cover." adage has always been pretty silly. We have to have some sort of filters on the media we consume or go mad, really. Most of us aren't independently wealthy enough to read the contents of a library, not that we'd likely remember it all anyway. And so, yes, we need to be able to come up with some criteria of judging, and sometimes it's because something smells like poo poo. Or has a writer we don't like. Or a premise that's offensive. I don't need to read or watch Twilight to confirm I won't like it; I've been sufficiently informed of its premise and nothing is likely to change my opinion in the near future. Reading reviews isn't judging a book by its cover. It's saying, "Hey, that lady read through the whole thing. Maybe I'll ask her what she thought before I buy it." The reviewer is judging it by the content, and you decide how much you trust them.
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Dec 29, 2015 05:49
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It can really suck when a game has cool content that ends up being overshadowed by creepy content. Lamentations of The Flame Princess is like that for me. I think the game is one of the better hacks of B/X D&D out there, and most of the adventure modules are really cool in an over-the-top, Weird-Fantasy way... But I know the minute I try to run a game, I'm going to get asked why the corebooks has a picture of a medusa loving a statue.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:03
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LornMarkus posted:I will actually argue that specific point: any single section is unlikely to really raise your opinion of a whole system, but a single section totally can torpedo an entire system if it's bad enough. Referring to that specific example, I know there are otherwise good systems that completely gently caress it up in the monsters/enemies section by having literal rape monsters in there. I'm hesitant to do a F&F of Beast because I'm pretty sure my preconceptions based on the Kickstarter preview will color it. But the more I read of the finished book the more the figleaf of "Teaching Ancient Wisdom" falls apart and the better I feel about tearing it a new hole.
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Dec 29, 2015 07:13
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Kurieg posted:I'm hesitant to do a F&F of Beast because I'm pretty sure my preconceptions based on the Kickstarter preview will color it. But the more I read of the finished book the more the figleaf of "Teaching Ancient Wisdom" falls apart and the better I feel about tearing it a new hole. 
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Dec 29, 2015 07:47
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Barring another one of my organs deciding to randomly fail, I hope to not fall off the F&F wagon again. So I'll get around to it once I'm done with Changing Breeds.
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Dec 29, 2015 07:56
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fool_of_sound posted:No, that's exactly what it means. Wick wants to tell a particular story, the players' characters and their abilities be damned. What makes it even funnier is just how limited Wick's palate of Stories that he's trying to tell is. They are all some variant of: 1) The bad guys are actually the good guys and/or the good guys are actually bad guys. Whoa, did I just blow your mind  ?2) The bad guy is really bad and fucks with you personally and gets to ignore the rules and there's nothing you can do about it. 3) Life is pain, and "heroes" are chumps and idiots who haven't yet absorbed that little fact but they will, oh yes they will. Did I miss any? What always gets me about Wick is that there's no way to win with his GM style, other than to let the GM steamroller you with his preordained plot and message that he's trying to deliver. He wants you to create three-dimensional characters with personalities and drives and people they care about, but only so he can use those things against you. If you respond to his Killer GM routine by treating it as a challenge and going back to the rulebooks to up your game and get better at using the rules, well now you're a min-maxing munchkin, and that gives him full rights to gently caress you over. And if you decide to give Wick fewer hooks with which to abuse your character and create characters that are more vague and generic (a loner, keeps to himself, dresses all in black, etc.), that means you're ROLL playing and not ROLE playing and boy oh boy is he going to gently caress you good. He's going to tell the story that he wants to tell - probably involving abusing your character on a really personal level - and there's literally nothing you can do about it other than quitting the game. Someone should review Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering as a palate-cleanser (not me, I'm more of an "ideas guy")
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Dec 29, 2015 08:17
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FMguru posted:What makes it even funnier is just how limited Wick's palate of Stories that he's trying to tell is. They are all some variant of: The saddest part is how shallow all three of these are, too. Especially the last one. Wick will forever be a 14 year old edgelord making his first homebrew after getting disillusioned with D&D.
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Dec 29, 2015 09:16
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