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Roguelikes #21-30 We're getting into the meat of the roguelike voting list. From this point out we're not just looking at games that are one guy's favorite, but games that resonate with many people. Many of these games were multiple peoples' top choice. For the games to come that are commercial, I can say with confidence that even if the game doesn't become your favorite, it will at least be something you will not regret having bought. For the ones that are free, they are must-tries. The following games received between 4 and 7 votes:
And the subgenres:
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Dec 30, 2015 18:24
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Jordan7hm posted:
It's a very lite, arcade-style game. I'm not really sure I'd call it a roguelike at all, and I'm generally very loose with how I use that term - it feels like something that'd fit perfectly into ye olde arcade cabinet or w/e. For anyone thinking of picking it up, (a) go for it but (b) beware the phone version - the devs did their best, but having played both, it's much much harder than the pc version. On-screen buttons... 
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Dec 30, 2015 18:31
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PleasingFungus posted:It's a very lite, arcade-style game. I'm not really sure I'd call it a roguelike at all, and I'm generally very loose with how I use that term - it feels like something that'd fit perfectly into ye olde arcade cabinet or w/e. Well, Zombie Samurai gifted it to me (thanks!), so I'm going to take a run at it tonight and will have real thoughts about it. In terms of being a roguelike, I think most platformers are a real stretch for the term, mainly due to a complete lack of interesting level generation. Towerclimb and Spelunky are the two big ones that buck the trend... Towerclimb just feels like a roguelike, and the item interaction from Spelunky brings that game a lot closer. Stuff like Avalanche 2 and other endless platformers are very much arcadey in nature. Honestly the poo poo level generation is my problem with most of the roguelites that have come out in the past few years. Yeah Nethack and Angband (and Rogue) had crappy level generation too, but more recent roguelikes have really stepped up their game in that regard.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:37
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Angband probably has the distinction of being the roguelike with the longest continuous period of being developed -- first release in 1990 or 1991, latest release a few months ago, and a fairly continuous development cycle in-between. Of course, all that development is largely playing to what Angband already is, so it still has a lot of those weird old gameplay bits that many modern roguelikes eschew, is too long, doesn't have autoexplore (keeping in mind that autoexplore in Angband would get you killed in very short order), etc. etc. etc. I love it to bits, but I've also been playing it for decades, so I'm not exactly unbiased. EDIT: quote:In terms of being a roguelike, I think most platformers are a real stretch for the term, mainly due to a complete lack of interesting level generation. What do you all think it takes to make a roguelike platformer with interesting level generation? Alternatively, what is it about existing roguelike platformers that makes their level generation uninteresting? Too repetitive, lack of unique challenges, what? TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 18:37
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PleasingFungus posted:It's a very lite, arcade-style game. I'm not really sure I'd call it a roguelike at all, and I'm generally very loose with how I use that term - it feels like something that'd fit perfectly into ye olde arcade cabinet or w/e.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:38
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downwell has a fair amount of randomness to it and is really fun to play, but it's definitely pushing the boundaries as far as being defined as a roguelike platformer goes. most of it involves falling down a pit and shooting things.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:40
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What do you all think it takes to make a roguelike platformer with interesting level generation? Alternatively, what is it about existing roguelike platformers that makes their level generation uninteresting? Too repetitive, lack of unique challenges, what? Spelunky has interesting level generation. Some of the things it does that I really like: - discrete, short, levels... when levels are really long or endless it just starts to feel arcady - but not single screen... single screen is what i expect in an arcade or puzzle game, especially given most single screen games are just pulling from a pre-built room collection and the randomness is how they fit together. - a clear path to the finish of the level, ideally multiples... level generation should be based on pathing to the finish of the level, not on random obstacles placed between the start and the finish - theme and style diversity... despite what I just said I don't want every single level to be a clear path, so Spelunky has the ice levels which are much more open. it also has the forest and temple and hell and cave levels, and the portal levels to break things up. cool and different themes are super important - lack of repetition... Spelunky uses prefabs but they don't feel like they just constantly repeat. part of this has to do with enemy placement / special levels which change how the same section would get played. contrast this with something like rogue legacy where there are only so many rooms and you're guaranteed to see the same one over and over again by the time you've played for a few hours .... I was talking about most roguelites though, not just platformers. Binding of Isaac and all its clones has boring level generation. So do all the FPS roguelikes that I've played. I grabbed Nuclear Throne earlier in the sale and I'm interested to see what it comes up with. I gather it might be more like Spelunky in terms of what I like to see (diversity, basically)
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Dec 30, 2015 18:51
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like spelunky, nuclear throne even has secret side levels that can skip you ahead a bit. there's one that can be reached within all of like...15 seconds of starting the game.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:01
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Jordan7hm posted:
Towerclimb has some really fantastic level generation. Especially when it comes to diversity, there is just so much awesome content in that game it really saddens me that most people will never see it. I think one of the biggest difficulty traps in that game is the point where the player has a decent grasp of the movement mechanics but has not yet figured out how to get through the levels quickly and/or using a minimum of resources. The former can usually be accomplished by favoring high jumps over climbing (I can beat most levels within a minute or two). The latter is harder, and requires a more intuitive grasp of exactly which traversals it is possible for your character to make with your current equipment, as well as mastery of techniques like item jumping. On good runs though I'm usually able to get through chapter one using just a small handful of potions, a couple times I didn't have to use any. By the way, thanks again for Grimrock 2, I am enjoying the heck out of it! The world feels so much bigger compared to the original (which I also loved) and I really dig a lot of the changes they made, like larger-grained skill system and the special melee attacks.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:18
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about level-gen
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^ I'm constantly impressed by the level generation in zardoland. It's loving terrifying every single time. A lot of roguelites or whatever you want to call them feel like a natural progression from classic arcade games. Much more than other modern games. lets hang out fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 19:19
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So in Dungeonmans I've gotten a few Radiant Shards and found a Star Shrine, anything I should know before using them? Basically I don't know what they do, it seems it just adds some life to my gear, seems lackluster for an epic enchant. The guide over on Steam says "Each body part will offer a different Cosmic benefit, with rings and melee weapons being the most potent of all." but it looks like it's the same on every gear, is this a bug? And is there any benefit upgrading the same item multiple times?
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Dec 30, 2015 19:35
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I asked of course because I'm once again spending my "hobby" time on thinking about how a procedurally-generated metroidvania would work. It's a very tricky problem! The basic concept of "lay out a region, then connect it to another region via an "obstacle room" that has a boss or requires a powerup to pass" is conceptually straightforward, but it seems like it would be difficult to build interesting-to-play regions, whether or not you rely on prefabs. I have a program that will procedurally-generate high-level maps that look similar to Super Metroid's map screen, e.g.  but that doesn't mean I can fill those maps with interesting content.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:36
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Im_Special posted:So in Dungeonmans I've gotten a few Radiant Shards and found a Star Shrine, anything I should know before using them? Basically I don't know what they do, it seems it just adds some life to my gear, seems lackluster for an epic enchant. The guide over on Steam says "Each body part will offer a different Cosmic benefit, with rings and melee weapons being the most potent of all." but it looks like it's the same on every gear, is this a bug? And is there any benefit upgrading the same item multiple times? IIRC Cosmic armour/hats/gloves get a big Armour and HP boost iirc, Cosmic weapons get a damage boost and a ton of Starlight damage, Cosmic rings give you more HP and a flat defeat Armour/Dodge/Parry and a damage bonus, I think? It should definitely be different between different gear types. The flat HP bonuses are actually incredible when they've stacked together, it makes your character leagues more survivable in the late game.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:41
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I asked of course because I'm once again spending my "hobby" time on thinking about how a procedurally-generated metroidvania would work. It's a very tricky problem! The basic concept of "lay out a region, then connect it to another region via an "obstacle room" that has a boss or requires a powerup to pass" is conceptually straightforward, but it seems like it would be difficult to build interesting-to-play regions, whether or not you rely on prefabs. Terraria has some interesting level generation in the caves, maybe take a look to see if the devs posted design specs for that stuff? Honestly I think prefabs (in high enough quantities) are the more interesting choice, by far. Handcrafted content is better than procedurally generated content in like 90% of cases, especially for games that have a reasonably high level of graphical fidelity.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:53
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Lutha Mahtin posted:source your quotes I won't apologize for calling the player tiles bad, though. Unless there's good ones I haven't unlocked, but I still really don't like any of these starting melee-looking ones. I ended up going with the dude holding a book even though I'm playing a melee dude because he didn't look as dumb. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 19:56
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Downwell is one of those games I feel like anyone who likes platformers should try. It's not very deep ( ) but it controls so well and the action is so good. The roguelike aspect is more a product of randomizing it for replays than actually trying to make it "rogue-like", if that makes any sense.I wrote a big wordy review of it back when it came out because of course I did. Mysteriously, it's my lowest-rated review, even behind slagging some pretty popular games, and I don't think I will ever figure out what happened there. quote:I'm pretty sure you can make a retro platformer out of literally any concept. Only the best games fully marry their concept to their gameplay, however. Downwell has you as an adorably animated little dude plunging to the bottom of a mysterious and randomly-generated well, armed only with his gunboots. Yes, those are boots that shoot things, which means Downwell almost plays more like a vertical shooter than a platformer. The well is full of enemies you can stomp Goomba-style or blast with your boots, though each one behaves a little differently. Red enemies can't be stomped, and a few white enemies can't be shot. So, as you're weaving your way past the strange, forgotten ledges of the well, you really need to be focused on what you're fighting and how to fight it.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:12
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The author of demon posted in this thread a couple months ago IIRC. I'm still lurking around.  Jordan7hm posted:
If it's not wildly inappropriate for me to offer a description myself, how about : "The Shin Megami Tensei inspired roguelike. Battle your way up the Tower, recruiting demons to fight alongside you and teach you their powers. Brutally hard."
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Dec 30, 2015 20:13
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Welp, my necromanser died right before I would have unlocked GrimdarkMans  . Went into a road ambush fight, and found that minions hate barricades with a passion, to the point of ignoring actual enemies to smash some wood. I, meanwhile, got dashed through by the boss and stabbed to death . THANKS ICE GOLEM
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Dec 30, 2015 20:19
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FerretDev posted:If it's not wildly inappropriate for me to offer a description myself, how about : "The Shin Megami Tensei inspired roguelike. Battle your way up the Tower, recruiting demons to fight alongside you and teach you their powers. Brutally hard." works for me! done
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Dec 30, 2015 20:27
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Frankosity posted:IIRC Cosmic armour/hats/gloves get a big Armour and HP boost iirc, Cosmic weapons get a damage boost and a ton of Starlight damage, Cosmic rings give you more HP and a flat defeat Armour/Dodge/Parry and a damage bonus, I think? It should definitely be different between different gear types. Ah you are right, what I did was enchant my chest, legs and boots and they were all 10 armor/30 health, but after a closer inspection, rings and weapons are different with extra Stats/10%damage/Starlight damage etc etc. I think my guy now achieved God status... So now that I'm a mini Cosmic God, what do I do to beat this game, what's left to do? I'm guessing there is a tower or sorts I'm overlooking.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:33
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Anyone else have the problem where you just can't get into a new clickyangbandalike because new characters inevitably play horribly til the game finally feels like you've earned the right to have options to work with?
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Dec 30, 2015 20:39
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dis astranagant posted:Anyone else have the problem where you just can't get into a new clickyangbandalike because new characters inevitably play horribly til the game finally feels like you've earned the right to have options to work with? yes. diablo 3 was kind of bad for this. the ramp up is too slow, and it's too obvious what cool tools you'll have if you can only wait a few hours. they've always been like that though
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Dec 30, 2015 20:41
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Jordan7hm posted:that looks cool My impression of Terraria was always "2D Minecraft", which just didn't strike me as being that interesting, but I guess I should probably look further into it. Is there anything in particular you feel Terraria did well or poorly? quote:Honestly I think prefabs (in high enough quantities) are the more interesting choice, by far. Handcrafted content is better than procedurally generated content in like 90% of cases, especially for games that have a reasonably high level of graphical fidelity. Rogue Legacy has a huge number of prefabs but still ends up feeling repetitive; clearly just "use prefabs" is not enough to have interesting level design. I'm inclined to think that part of this is that Rogue Legacy's enemy placement is always the same, so variations in how a given room plays come solely down to the difficulty level and your current stats, which isn't enough to produce good variability of play. But conceptually it could, if the variance between different characters in the game was much wider. Another aspect of it of course is that despite the huge number of prefabs, you see a large fraction of them in any given iteration of the castle. Clearing a zone on your first playthrough generally takes several attempts, and you'll have seen 90+% of the rooms by character #3 or so (to pull numbers at random) and you'll already have seen several of those rooms multiple times.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:58
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StrixNebulosa posted:Okay, I did it: I picked up Dungeonmans due to this thread. So far I'm having a blast playing a Rangerman, and I really love how intuitive all the controls are + the funny writing + how pleasant the tilesets are. Doctor Meat posted:I just bought Dungeonmans due to the many recommendations in this thread and I'm really enjoying it. I think it has the most pleasant tiles of any roguelike. The skill system really lets you put together a nice variety of moves quickly instead of slogging through to a certain level before your character is fun to play. Everything looks nice and clean. This may top TOME as my favorite roguelike. I'm really surprised I hadn't heard of Dungeonmans outside this thread. I follow several youtube reviewers and gaming sites and I haven't ever seen the game mentioned on rockpapershotgun or the like. StrixNebulosa posted:Are you me? This is exactly how I feel right now. It feels more fun than TOME. It looks great. The skills are great. (The Rangermans skill of shooting a super-shot that pushes you back is useful AND thrilling.) I would not have gotten it without this thread's adulation of it - and what an experience so far!  write a pleasant Steam Reviewif you're feeling generous.  IronicDongz posted:It's like a weird middle ground between playing dnd with the grognard who insists that you roll your stats randomly and the reasonable human who just lets you pick them If you really want, check out c:\users\NAME\appdata\roaming\Dungeonmans\random_hero_names.txt IronicDongz posted:If you want me to say something more meaningful, it's lame that the game doesn't let you mix armor types. Like if you are wearing any amount of Real Armor, that lets you use associated skills, but if you then put on so much as a single piece of Medium Armor, you lose access to all your Real Armor skills until you remove it. Which really cuts down on build variety! You'd already be penalized for using multiple types in the sense that you'd be spreading yourself thin in levels, so I don't see why this is necessary. At the very least it could be something like "Must be wearing at least 2 pieces of Real Armor" instead of "Must be wearing 1 piece of Real Armor, and no other types" so it'd be possible to at least go halfsies. The three armor styles are pretty different on purpose, and it's one of the very few places where I force players to go one way or the other-- the other big choice being shields or ranged weapons, because having a bow and blocking all the time was stupidly OP, even for Dungeonmans. If the armor styles were mixable, you'd have the One Best Armor style that involved high dodge + light shield + stamina tanky powers, and there'd be no other way to play, just like how bow+shield was demonstrably better than anything else by a country mile.IronicDongz posted:I won't apologize for calling the player tiles bad, though. Deargodalion posted:I am inclined to agree with guy up a little ways, I wish Dungeonmans had a few more tiles, or I could import my own. The player tiles are kind of bad. https://t.co/5pG2aIe2Wc https://t.co/Cf48TI6wga 
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Dec 30, 2015 20:59
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Rogue Legacy has a huge number of prefabs but still ends up feeling repetitive; clearly just "use prefabs" is not enough to have interesting level design. I'm inclined to think that part of this is that Rogue Legacy's enemy placement is always the same, so variations in how a given room plays come solely down to the difficulty level and your current stats, which isn't enough to produce good variability of play. But conceptually it could, if the variance between different characters in the game was much wider. Yeah I guess when I'm thinking prefab I'm thinking of something like DCSS vaults, where the vaults themselves contain significant elements of randomness, rather than something like ToME where once you've seen the vault you've seen the vault. You've got your overall level structure determined in one way, then you've got the nuts and bolts glued on overtop via the vaults / prefabs. Rogue Legacy suffers because every room is just that, a room. There's only so much you can do in the limited space. The larger size of Spelunky provides for exponentially more prefab combinations, which lead to more interesting levels. You essentially will never see the same level twice. That cannot be said of RL. quote:My impression of Terraria was always "2D Minecraft", which just didn't strike me as being that interesting, but I guess I should probably look further into it. Is there anything in particular you feel Terraria did well or poorly? I don't think it's incredible or anything, it is 2D minecraft after all, but the underground systems are interesting to explore. They're actually a good example of what I'm talking about. The general layout is spiced up with prefab sections and randomized enemy placement. The caves feel natural and different, and when you encounter something you haven't seen before, like a minecart track leading into a little underground building, or a group of like enemies all clustered together, that feels good. There's enough variation in content that you'll never really see the same thing twice (and Terraria is a game where even more prefabs would make that part of the game even more interesting).
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Dec 30, 2015 21:21
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Okay, so you're saying don't just have prefabs -- or if you do, make certain that the prefabs can fit together in organic and interesting ways (as Spelunky does, basically assembling a level out of jigsaw pieces). But probably most games should have a solid "generic" level-building algorithm that can have prefabs cleanly embedded into it, and then do as much as possible to change up aspects of the prefabs so that they can be more varied. So for a metroidvania, I guess you'd have e.g. a jumping puzzle room where you have to get from left to right and if you fall down, you start over. And you could vary this up by: * adding [different] enemies * removing platforms / adding grapple points to require different powerups * adding/changing hazards underneath the platforms as a penalty for failure * Enabling/disabling additional ways in/out of the room In practice, then, every single prefab would have a bunch of scriptable variations, and there might be further variations depending on what rooms lead up to the prefab...though the traditional Metroid powerup set is somewhat limited there, mostly just allowing you to bring a shinespark in.
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Dec 30, 2015 21:31
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This is a cool video on how they did it in Dungeon of the Endless, like Spelunky it's a combo of hand made content and prefab "shells": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPQOHX9hiL0
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Dec 30, 2015 21:34
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Anyone play much HyperRogue? It seems neat but I haven't really figured out a strategy besides blundering around aimlessly.
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Dec 30, 2015 21:50
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Rogue Legacy has a huge number of prefabs but still ends up feeling repetitive; clearly just "use prefabs" is not enough to have interesting level design. I'm inclined to think that part of this is that Rogue Legacy's enemy placement is always the same, so variations in how a given room plays come solely down to the difficulty level and your current stats, which isn't enough to produce good variability of play. But conceptually it could, if the variance between different characters in the game was much wider. Rogue Legacy's problem is that there's nothing to do in those rooms. It doesn't matter how many prefabs they make if every single one is either a box full of enemies or a hallway full of traps. There are no interactables like switches or lifts or physics objects, just breakable containers and those infuriating platforms you have to downstrike. Even the ones they try to make interesting like spike gauntlets and wide open rooms get inadvertently trivialized by taking double or triple jump, or just playing a dragon. There are a few rooms I like, like the tower of barrels, but they're so rare amidst a sea of hallways with enemies to kill and chairs to break.
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Dec 30, 2015 21:51
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Okay, so you're saying don't just have prefabs -- or if you do, make certain that the prefabs can fit together in organic and interesting ways (as Spelunky does, basically assembling a level out of jigsaw pieces). But probably most games should have a solid "generic" level-building algorithm that can have prefabs cleanly embedded into it, and then do as much as possible to change up aspects of the prefabs so that they can be more varied. Pretty much. You could go with full prefabs I guess but I would be almost seperating them into "dungeon layout" and "interesting content" groups, and they're totally different in terms of how they impact the player. You want the dungeon layout to be functional... to impart a general theme (this is the area with a lot of open space, this is the area that's cramped with lots of passages, etc). You want the interesting content prefabs to be memorable. From Spelunky that's stuff like shrines and merchants and pits with spikes in 'em. The key though is that you want A LOT of interesting content prefabs, and you want them to be a bit different every time the player encounters them. And they don't all have to be game related. Some of the really great DCSS vaults are things like 4 crystal pillars placed close to one another with a tree in the center of them. No in-game impact, just something different and cool. (Size of the game matters here. I really want cool little stuff in a game that takes me several hours and that I feel like I'm exploring. I care a lot less if it takes 15 minutes.)
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Dec 30, 2015 21:52
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Does skill affect the damage of polearm reach attacks?madjackmcmad posted:FWIW, all the monsters and heroes are supposed to have the same style as tabletop minatures: action poses, outlandish gear. If you want an average build man with brown hair and a short beard in a t-pose, you can do it!
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Dec 30, 2015 21:55
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Zombie Samurai posted:It doesn't matter how many prefabs they make if every single one is either a box full of enemies or a hallway full of traps. There are no interactables like switches or lifts or physics objects, just breakable containers and those infuriating platforms you have to downstrike. I've definitely gotten way more than my $2 worth out of Rogue Legacy and even at the full $15 it's definitely worthwhile if you're into the old-school arcadeish challenge of bullet hell platforming. I highly recommend it. (But it's a platforming game--if you don't have a controller, don't bother.) My single biggest complaint about the game is those loving downstrike platforms that are inexplicably prominently featured in almost every goddamn room of the game. They are not fun. Just a bad and baffling design decision. It could have been a way better game if some extra time/work had been put into including just the platform basics from the original Super Mario Bros.--moving platforms, pulley platforms, springboards.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:21
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Rogue legacy is pretty boring to me. Having different classes with stats meant there was all sorts of room for cool powerups and items to find to make your character better as you're playing it(instead of just the next character), and yet they didn't make anything like that. Instead you get...the sword you started with and one helper item that can rarely change. It's extremely shallow next to an excellent handmade platformer like mario or meat boy or whatever and none of the vaguely rpg-ish elements are utilized in a capacity that makes up for that.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:34
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i dont like rogue legacy very much at all
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Dec 30, 2015 22:36
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IronicDongz posted:I really don't like how, in Dungeonmans, you have to name every character something different. And then you get to choose from several selections of starting stat spreads, seeded on that name or something...? Just let me pick my base stats, tia. It's like a weird middle ground between playing dnd with the grognard who insists that you roll your stats randomly and the reasonable human who just lets you pick them Actually, I am pretty sure the name is the seed for at least stat generation, so you can see why you wouldn't want to allow reuse. Also, Dungeonmans IS good, but you are thinking of it too seriously when it comes to the tilesets.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:45
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Samizdata posted:Actually, I am pretty sure the name is the seed for at least stat generation, so you can see why you wouldn't want to allow reuse.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:49
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Awesome! posted:just wait until you meet the black slimes and flying fish things loving black slimes....
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Dec 30, 2015 22:49
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like why would it matter if two of my guys have the same stats? i dont even remember them past 2 minutes in when i dump my proofs anyway
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Dec 30, 2015 22:50
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Terraria can "cheat" somewhat because it gets to assume that the player has an effectively unlimited supply of jump-through platforms and climbable ropes they can place anywhere, and will relatively early on acquire a grappling hook and an unlimited-use teleport-home device. This means it can be a lot more casual about generating areas that cannot be platformed through unassisted because the player can build their own platforms.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:51
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Samizdata posted:Actually, I am pretty sure the name is the seed for at least stat generation,
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Dec 30, 2015 22:54
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