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Ephemeron posted:If you're looking for a game where that is most emphatically not the case, look no further than Fallen London. The point where you stop reading the fluff, and ignoring everything except the all those pretty little stat boosts and rewards.  Alternatively, when you sell your soul on purpose after doing it by accident half a dozen times or so. 2The average RPG protagonist is actually a scarily good approximation of an immoral monster that doesn't see people as anything more than gnats to be squashed if there is something to be gained from that. Seriously, though, it's a great setting.
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Jan 18, 2016 16:57
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ikanreed posted:So, Belkar lives a bit longer still. My money is on something like "Belkar comes in, kills Hel's new High Priest because he doesn't know about the switch, gets murdered."
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Jan 18, 2016 17:11
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Misandu posted:My money is on something like "Belkar comes in, kills Hel's new High Priest because he doesn't know about the switch, gets murdered." I'm unsure now though how that would help advance the plot or Belkar's character development in anyway though. That's more how GRRM writes is a character dying as a consequence of their own actions; major character deaths by Rich tend to be for the benefit of another character's narrative at least.
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Jan 18, 2016 17:21
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ImpAtom posted:Because nothing else he did was working and it foreshadows a way for him to do it. Not even ten strips ago: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html
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Jan 18, 2016 17:49
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Yeah you can poke anything you want in an antilife shell as long as it ain't living.
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Jan 18, 2016 17:55
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mmkay posted:Not even ten strips ago: Yes, I am aware. It was not, in fact, working. I suppose he could also create a complex series of pullies and wires but that also seems unlikely. (Also "not even ten strips ago" has more weight when that isn't like two months ago.)
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Jan 18, 2016 18:01
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greatn posted:Yeah you can poke anything you want in an antilife shell as long as it ain't living. If only that polearm shop had had a glaive-guisarme-glaive, the world might have been saved!
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Jan 18, 2016 18:03
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Triple Elation posted:Crap, I had this wall of text about alignment all written up and you come and ruin it with your comic update Granted, the evil path in games that expect you to be good tends to boil down to this, but I don't think I've ever really seen characters be puppy-kicking evil outside of that. Even the meanest villains have some reasonable-ish motivation and aren't arbitrarily evil. Even Star Wars villains, who are explicitly designed to be obvious bad guys, follow the Dark Side like a religion. Palpatine was the evilest fucker in the universe, but he was also an ardent believer in his own doctrine, and was happy to die if it meant turning Luke into Vader's apprentice and handing the universe over to those two. He's not a complex character, but he's by no means arbitrary. What characters are arbitrarily and needlessly cruel, but also meant to be taken seriously?
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Jan 18, 2016 18:03
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Kajeesus posted:Palpatine was the evilest fucker in the universe, but he was also an ardent believer in his own doctrine, and was happy to die if it meant turning Luke into Vader's apprentice and handing the universe over to those two. Huh?
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Jan 18, 2016 18:44
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Sir Kodiak posted:Huh? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNKwZTv1d0
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Jan 18, 2016 19:01
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Aumanor posted:I don't think Roy's still an official bodyguard, now that Durkon's ceded his position as a High priest and split. So in the next strip the pro-world-destruction priests may catch on to the fact that he's technically as much of an intruder as the vampires and just blast him with all the spells they have left. That's probably going to be the stated reason, and we're probably going to get three panels of the Representative clerics explaining that Roy is: A. Still recognized as a bodyguard of a representative and party to the non-aggression agreement. B. Not a bodyguard of the current particular representative of Hel and not allowed to harm her any more than anyone else would be. but that's still bullshit, man.
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Jan 18, 2016 19:09
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, I am aware. It was not, in fact, working. I suppose he could also create a complex series of pullies and wires but that also seems unlikely. An enlarge might give him enough reach, a chain might enable him to yank the guy out, his bag of tricks could maybe throw some animals in there before they transform so they're in the bubble, a simple net might make things difficult, magic arrows, bolts, there's lots of ways he could potentially get through. Throwing the sword probably a bad idea, Durkon could have just let himself be hit then teleport.
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Jan 18, 2016 19:28
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greatn posted:An enlarge might give him enough reach, a chain might enable him to yank the guy out, his bag of tricks could maybe throw some animals in there before they transform so they're in the bubble, a simple net might make things difficult, magic arrows, bolts, there's lots of ways he could potentially get through. Throwing the sword probably a bad idea, Durkon could have just let himself be hit then teleport. Could have been a ranged sunder attempt on the orb. That would essentially settle matters.
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Jan 18, 2016 19:34
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ikanreed posted:Could have been a ranged sunder attempt on the orb. That would essentially settle matters. True
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Jan 18, 2016 19:42
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And we're off to a hundred and fifty seven strips of voting bureaucracy stalling the main plot.
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Jan 18, 2016 19:45
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"Prevent the end of the world" kind of is the main plot. Only priorities have just jumped from "prevent the end of the world, which would otherwise occur in the near future" to "prevent the immediate end of the world, as in, today, holy gently caress get going."
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Jan 18, 2016 19:53
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Kajeesus posted:What characters are arbitrarily and needlessly cruel, but also meant to be taken seriously? I disagree that needlessly cruel characters can't be good or interesting, but the only example I can think of offhand is the Joker and I hate that guy.
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Jan 18, 2016 19:57
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So what do ya'll think? Are they going to foil plans on the spot by just murdering the new high priestess and either suffering or evading the consequences? Or is the new plot for the foreseeable future going to involve tracking Durkon down and thwarting his efforts in dwarf land?
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Jan 18, 2016 20:02
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Colonel Cool posted:Or is the new plot for the foreseeable future going to involve tracking Durkon down and thwarting his efforts in dwarf land? This, otherwise we don't get any payoff for all that backstory/character development we got from watching Durkon and the vampire spirit review his memories. Plus the final gate is supposed to be in/near the dwarf lands anyway, if I recall correctly, so it's in the same general vicinity.
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Jan 18, 2016 20:13
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, I am aware. It was not, in fact, working. I suppose he could also create a complex series of pullies and wires but that also seems unlikely.  It worked as in the sword was poking through the shell no problem even when it wasn't glowing, he just didn't have enough reach to stab Durkon with it. Same as with any other inanimate object.
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Jan 18, 2016 20:24
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ikanreed posted:Could have been a ranged sunder attempt on the orb. That would essentially settle matters. They took the orb and threw it on the ground, it was already as sundered as it was gonna get.
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Jan 18, 2016 21:03
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W.T. Fits posted:This, otherwise we don't get any payoff for all that backstory/character development we got from watching Durkon and the vampire spirit review his memories. On top of this, OotS has stuck to a very predictable formula over the years. A book where a gate gets dealt with is always followed by a book where 'something else' happens and then followed by a book where another gate gets dealt with, rinse and repeat. As soon as the party arrived at the Godsmoot, I knew this poo poo was not getting resolved for another 200 pages at least.
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Jan 18, 2016 21:42
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:On top of this, OotS has stuck to a very predictable formula over the years. A book where a gate gets dealt with is always followed by a book where 'something else' happens and then followed by a book where another gate gets dealt with, rinse and repeat. Let's see... -1: Lirien's Gate 0: No gate 1: Dorukan's Gate 2: No gate 3: Soon's gate 4: No gate 5: Girard's Gate 6: ? 7: ??? poo poo, that is true. Didn't Rich mention that he was only planning on doing 7 books?
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Jan 18, 2016 22:51
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Kajeesus posted:Granted, the evil path in games that expect you to be good tends to boil down to this, but I don't think I've ever really seen characters be puppy-kicking evil outside of that. Even the meanest villains have some reasonable-ish motivation and aren't arbitrarily evil. Even Star Wars villains, who are explicitly designed to be obvious bad guys, follow the Dark Side like a religion. Palpatine was the evilest fucker in the universe, but he was also an ardent believer in his own doctrine, and was happy to die if it meant turning Luke into Vader's apprentice and handing the universe over to those two. He's not a complex character, but he's by no means arbitrary. Ahem. In pro-death penalty vigilante revenge flick An Eye for an Eye (1996) Kiefer Sutherland's character rapes and murders a young teenage girl on her birthday, she was on the phone with her mom while it happened and he just let mom listen to the whole thing. He later mocks the girls stammer to her mother's face. Just to get everyone on board with the idea that this irredeemable fucker has to die, he pours a cup of hot coffee on the head of a puppy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJjRn_GH9R8
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Jan 19, 2016 00:25
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Lorne Malvo from TV's Fargo was pretty needlessly cruel and it's apparent you were supposed to take him seriously.
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Jan 19, 2016 00:39
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The Master (Doctor Who) is definitely cruel and you're absolutely supposed to talk him seriously.
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Jan 19, 2016 00:57
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It's not like "Needlessly Cruel" automatically equals "Bad Character". You begin to run into trouble when your villain is Needlessly cruel AND a jerk to his family AND has no regard for the law AND has no red lines AND apparently enjoys the suffering of others AND has no apparent motivation aside from "ha ha aren't I a giant bastard" and and and. Basically where they're just a dehumanized vector which has the purpose of making situations worse. I am totally not buying that Emo Kylo Ren et al. don't fall into that last listed pitfall. So you're an ardent follower of a strict religious code which is complex and rife with intricacies, but the gist of it is that you should be a giant bastard. That's totally different from just being a giant bastard. Mm hm.
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Jan 19, 2016 02:46
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I think the point is more like "it's bad writing when a villain acts needlessly cruel in a realistic piece of fiction and people don't react the way they ordinarily would to someone being pointlessly mean."
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Jan 19, 2016 03:08
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Rygar201 posted:The Master (Doctor Who) is definitely cruel and you're absolutely supposed to talk him seriously. Doctor Who is aimed at being enjoyed by the whole family, including/especially children, and isn't really where you should look for deep writing 
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Jan 19, 2016 03:47
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Rygar201 posted:The Master (Doctor Who) is definitely cruel and you're absolutely supposed to talk him seriously. The Master is also funny.
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Jan 19, 2016 03:48
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Shugojin posted:Doctor Who is aimed at being enjoyed by the whole family, including/especially children, and isn't really where you should look for deep writing This isn't a bad thing, and family median can and often does explore deep themes ^^Simm is truly stellar in that's role, yes
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Jan 19, 2016 03:54
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I wasn't saying it was a bad thing, just that it's probably not where you will find carefully constructed villains. It's gonna tend to the cartoonish, which is fun and perfectly okay to do as long as you don't think you're doing the other thing.
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Jan 19, 2016 03:57
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Redcloak, Xykon and Belkar are a perfect trifecta of fictional villainy IMO.
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Jan 19, 2016 04:08
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sebmojo posted:Redcloak, Xykon and Belkar are a perfect trifecta of fictional villainy IMO. This is very true.
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Jan 19, 2016 05:14
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EndOfTheWorld posted:That sort of this also has always struck me as incredibly disingenuous too. Like, sure Mr. Peasant, I'll say no your piddly GP award because I know the game is going to give me even more XP (a much more valuable resource) for choosing the Dudley Doright option. I end up doing the "right" thing but for reasons that are completely mercenary. "This little girl has a precious resource you need! If you spare her, you will get much less than if you kill her! However, if you spare the girl, in like fifteen minutes the little girls you spared will give you a present out of gratitude, so in fact you end up with more of the precious resource you need! Will you do the right thing for greater personal gain, or literally kill a little girl to make the game harder for yourself? TREMBLE AT OUR PERILOUS MORAL CHOICE SYSTEM"
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Jan 19, 2016 05:48
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CapnAndy posted:Never done worse than in Bioshock, for the record. I feel like I should  myself.
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Jan 19, 2016 07:41
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I still feel like it's a wasted opportunity to not examine the implications of the Dark Side of the force more deeply. In theory, it's a religion that says to embrace your emotional urges and live in the moment. That joy, rage, love, sorrow, etc. are what make us human, and denying them fundamentally lessens you as a person. That's a really cool idea that no one ever really uses even in the good games and such, except as an excuse to be an rear end in a top hat. Where's my game about living with the implications of Social Darwinism? I mean, aside from playing a Chaos hero in an SMT game. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 08:09
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Angela Christine posted:Ahem. In pro-death penalty vigilante revenge flick An Eye for an Eye (1996) Kiefer Sutherland's character rapes and murders a young teenage girl on her birthday, she was on the phone with her mom while it happened and he just let mom listen to the whole thing. He later mocks the girls stammer to her mother's face. Just to get everyone on board with the idea that this irredeemable fucker has to die, he pours a cup of hot coffee on the head of a puppy. Hahah yeah, I'll grant you that one. I saw that movie when I was 15, and I remember it reinforcing all my stereotypes of Americans as wannabe vigilantes who think the US prison system is too lenient. You forget the scene where he goes "I'm not really into kids, but hey, maybe your six year old will be my first." Triple Elation posted:I am totally not buying that Emo Kylo Ren et al. don't fall into that last listed pitfall. So you're an ardent follower of a strict religious code which is complex and rife with intricacies, but the gist of it is that you should be a giant bastard. That's totally different from just being a giant bastard. Mm hm. Well, in the case of Kylo Ren, he's in severe pain from the pull of the Dark Side or whatever is messing him up, and he's hoping being a big bastard will make the pain stop. It may not be particularly relatable, but it's a motivation!
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Jan 19, 2016 09:10
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Poison Mushroom posted:I still feel like it's a wasted opportunity to not examine the implications of the Dark Side of the force more deeply. KOTOR came real close to doing this, with letting you join (undercover) an actual Sith Academy on Korriban where students are supposedly trained in the ways of the Dark Side. Unfortunately they dropped the ball and just made a cliché Evil School where you're encouraged to backstab and murder fellow pupils and teachers, prompting the question of why anybody would ever enroll there unless they had literally no other choice. I heard that they remade the Korriban Academy for SW:TOR and it's less moustache-twirlingly dumb, but I couldn't put up with the atrocious hotbar-based gameplay long enough to see it.
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Jan 19, 2016 12:29
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NihilCredo posted:KOTOR came real close to doing this, with letting you join (undercover) an actual Sith Academy on Korriban where students are supposedly trained in the ways of the Dark Side. You have no choice. They find force sensitives and send them there. If you don't want to go you die. It is less evil in TOR. But it's still pretty evil. Effectively groups of students are given a series of tests by an overseer to try and impress a Sith Lord who wants an apprentice. The weak are culled during the tests, Until there are only 2 or 3 left. After which the Sith Lord makes his choice and the rest are killed. You can actually call out your master in the Inquisitor storyline on killing a talented student who lost mainly because the Overseer gave him a head start before key info was told to him. She states that of course his death was necessary. She can only have one apprentice.
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