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T.G. Xarbala posted:I got curious and skimmed some of the comments on this video Not sure but I think that jpeg might be scanning
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Jan 19, 2016 13:20
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Scruffpuff posted:This was the missing piece of data that explains everything. Yeah, I can see how people would be confused. But they really aren't charging VAT twice as that would be very hot water to be in.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:20
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But really Libluini, think for a minute. If it worked like you think it works then no one would pay any VAT ever because everyone would convert their money from fiat to gift cards. Believe me at some point you are going to pay that VAT be it when you get the card or when you exchange it for goods, the tax collectors aren't stupid. Your problem is that you keep comparing prices with VAT and prices without VAT and don't understand at which point the VAT is getting added.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:22
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Omen skinflute Doughface pussywhip Ineffectual calorievac Nohomed clinker Take your guesses as to which name corresponds to which CIG member.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:23
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MeLKoR posted:HOLY MOTHER OF gently caress Welp, obviously I can't test this without actually buying something from CIG. But I can only say, if I go to a shop with those prices (including VAT) and it works out like you say, I would be utterly confused because no shop ever has done it this way. It looks to me like you're wrong because every purchase ever made by me was doing things like I expect them to work.  Since I'm not willing to pay CIG to find out which one of us is wrong, I'll drop this. AP posted:No they don't, not on a RSI credit sale. You add RSI credits the value of the sale drops and the VAT on that part of the sale disappears. They assume you are going to pay with cash, if you actually try it there is a screen to knock the value down using RSI credits. Well, good to know. But giftcards aren't credits, they're value is displayed in dollars. So I would expect them to work like advertised, not like some weirdo in CIG-accounting thinks it should work. MeLKoR posted:But really Libluini, think for a minute. If it worked like you think it works then no one would pay any VAT ever because everyone would convert their money from fiat to gift cards. Believe me at some point you are going to pay that VAT be it when you get the card or when you exchange it for goods, the tax collectors aren't stupid. No, I understood all that. Every time you explained it. Every single time. My problem is with giftcards having VAT added, which is simply not how it should be done. VAT should be collected when you make an actual purchase, not when buying a giftcard which essentially just exchanges your currency. I linked to this lengthy law-text explaining all of this a couple posts before. The way CIG displays this either means they have some unnecassary extra steps build in to make sure customers aren't overpaying taxes, or they just don't care and sweep the overpayment for themselves. And I'm not entirely sure why you keep bringing up that thing with "everyone converting their money from fiat to giftcards". You pay your VAT when you buy something with your giftcard, that's normal. Pre-loading your giftcard with VAT, that's not normal. In fact, everyone can and is allowed to exchange their fiat money for giftcards, we call this "buying giftcards". Libluini fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 13:24
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MeLKoR posted:But really Libluini, think for a minute. If it worked like you think it works then no one would pay any VAT ever because everyone would convert their money from fiat to gift cards. Believe me at some point you are going to pay that VAT, the tax collectors aren't stupid. I can see why he's confused. Libluini, If I was still crazy like it was 2013 and I wanted to buy a $250 space ship (VAT in UK is 20%). I could buy a $50 giftcard for $60 Price before VAT on RSI would be $250, using the gift card would take me down to $200, VAT would be $40. total price would be $300 (giftcard $60 + $240 cash) Or I could buy the ship at $250 + VAT for cash, total price would be $300. It all works and you only get charged VAT once. Also anyone who has RSI credits from before the VAT change doesn't get charged VAT no matter what they do. AP fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 13:27
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Libluini posted:Welp, obviously I can't test this without actually buying something from CIG. But I can only say, if I go to a shop with those prices (including VAT) and it works out like you say, I would be utterly confused because no shop ever has done it this way. Will you please look at the pictures you posted?  $50 gift card costs you $59.50 post VAT  $45 ship costs you $53.55 post VAT If you get a $50 card you pay $59.50, when you exchange it for a $45 ship your card will have a balance of $5 + VAT = $5.95. If you look at the values pre-VAT you have $50 - $45 = $5 If you look at the values post VAT you have $59.50 - $53.55 = $5.95 $5 pre VAT = $5.95 post VAT. There is no double charging. This is only confusing because most people never have to deal pre-VAT prices, especially not in stores that list prices pre and post VAT on the same store. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 13:31
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I'm Matilda and Derek.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:32
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Libluini posted:Well, good to know. But giftcards aren't credits, they're value is displayed in dollars. So I would expect them to work like advertised, not like some weirdo in CIG-accounting thinks it should work. They can't win with the system they have, people in Europe are used to seeing the total price, when I'm in the US it confuses me to have tax added on after the ticket price. They only way they could change it is to change the price of the ships depending on your tax laws and they have 100+ of the bloody things and even then they'll still be stuck with RSI credits that people already own.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:34
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Libluini posted:No you fucker are you even reading what I type down for you, if you pay $60 for a German giftcard you can only buy a $40 ship, because CIG demands VAT for the $40 ship too. Are you the stats dude from reddit?
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Jan 19, 2016 13:35
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I'm going out and when I come back I want to see you all playing nice 
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Jan 19, 2016 13:36
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MeLKoR posted:Will you please look at the pictures you posted? You're right, this is extra confusing to me. It just feels wrong to me, still. But welp, I'm not an accountant (and actually quite bad at math) so I can't argue any longer in the face of evidence, even though I don't really understand this tax crap. I thought I did, but ugh The only thing I'm taking from this: Never give CIG money, ever.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:36
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MeLKoR posted:
They are loving morons. Completely. The reason The Escapist hasn't done anything further, is because there isn't anything to follow up on. Period. In fact, CIG had said they'd invite them to come by the offices. That invite - which would have been the "follow up" - never was extended. There is nothing for CIG to sue The Escapist (or me) over because the minute they do that, it's all over. All those sources would get deposed (and protected), discovery would dig into the claims in the article. ALL those claims lead to one thing that CIG definitely not want anyone digging into: HOW WAS THE MONEY SPENT? Anyone who thinks that a company that has raised over $100M would shy away from a lawsuit if they had a case, is a loving moron. Heck, I can't even get them to sue me. And it's not from my lack of trying. And I'm not going to waste my time suing them for defamation (Chris's article) which is just a time waster, though it is still a fallback plan since it too goes back to the money, since my articles, which led to Chris's diatribe, all stem from mismanagement and financial accountability for the project. Every attorney fresh out of law school knows that regardless of the merits of a lawsuit, you can shove every loving thing you want in there. Depositions and Interrogatories are a Gold mine of information. You can ask/say any loving thing you want. Heck, I'm still dying to ask Sandi about her qualifications, the events of (and their lifestyle) 2011 leading to the 2012 KS etc; and Beer's emails just provided more legal fodder. They made an empty threat. And got called on it. The End. No matter how this ends, anyone who doesn't think some sort of legal action will arise from it, hasn't been paying attention at all.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:37
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thread jumped the shark
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Jan 19, 2016 13:37
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Brazilianpeanutwar posted:I'm going out and when I come back I want to see you all playing nice Math is confusing so it helps to get help, even if the source is old.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:41
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Libluini posted:You're right, this is extra confusing to me. It just feels wrong to me, still. But welp, I'm not an accountant (and actually quite bad at math) so I can't argue any longer in the face of evidence, even though I don't really understand this tax crap. I thought I did, but ugh However all of this is by the book, the only question here is do CIG's invoices specify the VAT or not, if not and they send an invoice for $60 without specifying the VAT amount then they are pocketing the difference. But as far as VAT scams go that would be caught instantly, I don't believe even CIG would be that stupid, that's "federal pound me in the rear end prison" levels of stupidity.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:43
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I think that in order to really lock all this VAT discussion down, we should get some sort of maths professional in here to explain it to everyone. Maybe some kind of auditor? Let's get a good one, too, like a German dude.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:44
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:This is the (irignial plz dont stteal) WULF KNIGHT NAME CONVENTION!!! you could have the best of both worlds by naming yourself Knight Wulf alf_pogs posted:thread jumped the shark the Janissary Shark?
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Jan 19, 2016 13:44
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alf_pogs posted:thread jumped the shark  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMo3U_429P8
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Jan 19, 2016 13:44
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That's a pretty handy emergency escape function.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:51
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flushed like a space turd
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Jan 19, 2016 13:53
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I still haven't figured out what those lasers (?) firing (?) at the planet are supposed to be. Also, an asteroid belt in low orbit? A++++++ would immerse again
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Jan 19, 2016 13:59
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Can you spot the point where the player seamlessly transitions from flying a ship to standing in an fps level in the shape of a ship?
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Jan 19, 2016 14:02
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MeLKoR posted:This is only confusing because most people never have to deal pre-VAT prices, especially not in stores that list prices pre and post VAT on the same store. Seeing your struggle to explain the basics of VAT to a grown man I now grok why German laws on customer protection seem so clucky. They really have to base the law on the assumption that the customer has no clue at all and take it from there. And assuming the US doesn't have this nanny state approach to customer protection it explains why CIG can milk those whales dry.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:06
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I don't get it all I see is a ~seamless transition~ from ship to fps to eva
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Jan 19, 2016 14:11
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Einbauschrank posted:Seeing your struggle to explain the basics of VAT to a grown man I now grok why German laws on customer protection seem so clucky. They really have to base the law on the assumption that the customer has no clue at all and take it from there. And assuming the US doesn't have this nanny state approach to customer protection it explains why CIG can milk those whales dry. It's good that VAT is "invisible" to most everyone because it's really the worst part of sales accounting. On the other hand it seems much easier for a company to avoid charging the US sales tax and thus hurt the government and gain an unfair advantage over the competition because the tax is only charged at the last sale point rather than all along the production chain.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:12
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Reddit still reporting imgur hosted pics to get them taken down? Cool.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:22
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What's this? Spirited disagreements resolved amiably, without racist diatribes and name-calling? Reddit taught me that this forum is the worst of the worst, and their word is law. I don't know what to believe any more.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:23
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Scruffpuff posted:What's this? Spirited disagreements resolved amiably, without racist diatribes and name-calling? Reddit taught me that this forum is the worst of the worst, and their word is law. I don't know what to believe any more. gently caress you, you little oval office
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Jan 19, 2016 14:25
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MeLKoR posted:It's good that VAT is "invisible" to most everyone because it's really the worst part of sales accounting. On the other hand it seems much easier for a company to avoid charging the US sales tax and thus hurt the government and gain an unfair advantage over the competition because the tax is only charged at the last sale point rather than all along the production chain. In Germany when selling to the "end consumer" you are required to show prices including VAT. Only when selling to other people along the production chain are you exempt from having to include the VAT. So to my understanding CIG would have to display VAT on their site if they were based in Germany. Also, you can chose to pay VAT in your own country or the customer's country (but then you have to stick to it ...) and of course there are many caveats (like exceeding a certain volume of sales into another country). I can only guess how convoluted it must be when selling Space-JPEGS from the US into the EU or other parts of the world. At least there is no value chain in Space Ponzi Schemes, only "end consumers" aka suckers. And fortunately Sandi is the world's best accountant since she was able to count to three at age of eleven.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:26
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Friendly Tumour posted:Reddit still reporting imgur hosted pics to get them taken down? Cool. That really happened? Reddit is all kinds of strange
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Jan 19, 2016 14:26
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T.G. Xarbala posted:defending Sandi's acting is a bridge too far, even for the most dug-in  Even the most committed kool aid chuggers can't bring themselves to defend Sandi's acting. That's hilarious
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Jan 19, 2016 14:28
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MeLKoR posted:It's good that VAT is "invisible" to most everyone because it's really the worst part of sales accounting. On the other hand it seems much easier for a company to avoid charging the US sales tax and thus hurt the government and gain an unfair advantage over the competition because the tax is only charged at the last sale point rather than all along the production chain. It's really neat to have your auto mechanic tell you straight up that if I pay in cash he doesn't have to charge any tax. And then later hear rumors that he's part of a local criminal syndicate. good mechanic tho, A+ service would recommend
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Jan 19, 2016 14:28
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how much vat do we pay per post in this thread?
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Jan 19, 2016 14:31
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D_Smart posted:They are loving morons. Completely. just to let you know empty legal threads against companies kinda fulfills defamation clause. It could be interpret like your trying to cause financial loss to CIG. So if you dont sue em your kinda in risk here, regardless of truthiness of your statements. But hey we know that the lawsuit is coming in 2 weeks right? 
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Jan 19, 2016 14:33
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OWLS! posted:how much vat do we pay per post in this thread? we pay lowtax to post in this thread
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Jan 19, 2016 14:33
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OWLS! posted:how much vat do we pay per post in this thread? About 85:- in total. Your per-post cost will obviously vary.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:34
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OWLS! posted:how much vat do we pay per post in this thread? It's hard to tell. I pay with AwfulBux™ so I might be getting double-charged.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:36
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Wuxi posted:That really happened? Well I guess so, why else would all the imgur hosted pics be going down constantly in this particular thread only. it's pretty annoying so goongrats to reddit for owning this thread! keep it up! i think there was a screencap way back of people on reddit fessing up to it but it might just be troll
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Jan 19, 2016 14:39
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Daztek posted:we pay lowtax to post in this thread 
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Jan 19, 2016 14:39
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