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Bold Robot posted:This is exactly what I'm concerned about, yeah. Few people bother to really figure out the CK2 and EU4 combat sims because you can get 90% of the way there by following a rule of thumb that some sperg figured out years ago in both games. In CK2 you basically just show up with more guys, maybe a Welshman, and keep an eye on terrain. In EU4 you have roughly equal numbers of inf and art and a couple cav, maybe keep a reinforcement stack around, and keep an eye on terrain. Neither of these games would be improved by having combat play out in real time - the level of player feedback and involvement is pretty good in both. OK, but that's true of basically everything in gaming. A game is released, and some nerd somewhere spreadsheets it out to find the "optimal" path and then a bunch of folks read his blog. Whether it's MMORPG rotations or the best gun in FPS2016 or Paradox combat, that's always going to be a thing to at least some extent.
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Jan 26, 2016 01:59
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Empress Theonora posted:The first thing you should notice about that thread is that it is 857 pages long. And you have to read it all to understand any of it. 
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Jan 26, 2016 02:07
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Empress Theonora posted:Let's Play! › Bull-men are the epitome of civilization! Europa Universalis: Rome Every so often I am tempted to go through that LP, if for no other reason to read a treasured part of forums history, but boy oh boy... At the very least I can be proud about being a Modernist during the old Hohenzollern LP. That has to be worth something!
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Jan 26, 2016 02:08
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Jackson Taus posted:OK, but that's true of basically everything in gaming. A game is released, and some nerd somewhere spreadsheets it out to find the "optimal" path and then a bunch of folks read his blog. Whether it's MMORPG rotations or the best gun in FPS2016 or Paradox combat, that's always going to be a thing to at least some extent. On the other hand is stuff like HoI2 naval stuff or CK2 combat favoring the Welsh. I personally get spooked the more paramaters get thrown in the mix which leads to broken implementations like those Paradox examples, or more generally the 00s philosophies of more choices obviously means better such as in Diablo 2 and old WoW, even though more choices usually means there's a maximization scheme that renders the choice irrelevant.
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Jan 26, 2016 02:25
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Jackson Taus posted:OK, but that's true of basically everything in gaming. A game is released, and some nerd somewhere spreadsheets it out to find the "optimal" path and then a bunch of folks read his blog. Whether it's MMORPG rotations or the best gun in FPS2016 or Paradox combat, that's always going to be a thing to at least some extent. It's certainly possible to have complex systems that don't converge on some trivially optimal playstyle. For example, just consider Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup
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Jan 26, 2016 02:34
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The CK2 combat is one of the "worst" systems to me because it relies on so many things that the player has no control over (like any army composition that isn't a retinue). I put "worst" in quotes because you can usually get by making armies of big mans and mashing them into armies of smaller mans, so all of that complexity doesn't even end up mattering much. In comparison, while EU4 combat is just as abstruse to me, you have some level of control of how much cav/inf/art you're slinging around, so you can at least figure out general things like "have lots of infantry and artillery to back them up" without number-crunching the percentage of Welsh longbowmen that will trigger the right tactics (that's a thing, right? I really don't get CK2 combat).
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Jan 26, 2016 04:16
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my favorite ck2 combat story is when someone figured out that having extremely low (<=4?) martial was better than everything but extremely high martial. at low enough martial skill, only four tactics would activate (vs the ~10-20 normally available?), one of which was a 'charge' tactic. at the time, the charge tactics were so much stronger than all the others (depending on army composition?) that even though it was a lovely charge tactic, it triggering so much more often was a huge combat advantage over higher martial leaders
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Jan 26, 2016 04:26
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Lord Hydronium posted:number-crunching the percentage of Welsh longbowmen that will trigger the right tactics Doing this is ineffective because you have very little control over your troop composition unlike EU4. Studying the wiki for tactic triggers and cultural bonuses is largely pointless because once you have the sort of retinue cap that allows you to reliably get the perfect composition of archers or cavalry on your flanks you've got a gigantic realm, likely with more troops than anyone else in the entire world. People obsess over it because it's in their interests to min-max every little aspect and that's fine, it's just that min-maxing your army of all things in CK2 is silly.
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Jan 26, 2016 04:30
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PleasingFungus posted:It's certainly possible to have complex systems that don't converge on some trivially optimal playstyle. Yeah, but then in that case you still get a lot of the "go with X,Y,Z" or "if A, do X, if B, do Y, else do Z" type recommendations a lot which end up capturing a lot of the benefit.
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Jan 26, 2016 04:34
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PleasingFungus posted:my favorite ck2 combat story is when someone figured out that having extremely low (<=4?) martial was better than everything but extremely high martial. at low enough martial skill, only four tactics would activate (vs the ~10-20 normally available?), one of which was a 'charge' tactic. at the time, the charge tactics were so much stronger than all the others (depending on army composition?) that even though it was a lovely charge tactic, it triggering so much more often was a huge combat advantage over higher martial leaders But the computer got to have a lot of fun playing it
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Jan 26, 2016 07:36
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RabidWeasel posted:
That's why the only terraforming I ever did was to plant trees.
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Jan 26, 2016 13:09
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It's beautiful...
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Jan 26, 2016 13:42
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That system will do wonders for LPs.
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Jan 26, 2016 15:42
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Nitrousoxide posted:It's beautiful... Finally a game that lets us recreate the intro to Dad's Army.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:23
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I can't wait to play Madden '42.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:49
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Nitrousoxide posted:It's beautiful... Football Manager's looking better than ever.
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Jan 27, 2016 10:12
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I don't really remember seeing much talk about it, but do you remember how we were talking in the thread about how CK2's DLC is poo poo what with always expanding it the wrong way? There's a new DLC to be released on February 2nd that is just the opposite of that, Conclave. It went so far under the radar that they only had time to make 3 dev diaries for it: Conclave Dev Diary #1 Conclave Dev Diary #2 (mostly council mechanics, realm peace) Conclave Dev Diary #3 (because this one was posted yesterday, a week before release, they are giving a huge infodump on literally every feature so prepare for a long read)
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Jan 27, 2016 10:25
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I bought 18 CK2 DLCs in the last big sale and shamefully haven't played it a bit. Maybe with the new patch and Conclave that will change?
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Jan 27, 2016 11:06
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YF-23 posted:I don't really remember seeing much talk about it, but do you remember how we were talking in the thread about how CK2's DLC is poo poo what with always expanding it the wrong way? There's a new DLC to be released on February 2nd that is just the opposite of that, Conclave. It went so far under the radar that they only had time to make 3 dev diaries for it: Way of Life wasn't poo poo, it was amazing. But yes, Conclave seems to be the internal realm overhaul that can only improve CK2.
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Jan 27, 2016 11:46
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Torrannor posted:Way of Life wasn't poo poo, it was amazing. It was a general observation, Way of Life was good.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:02
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The only DLC that really can be described with "poo poo expanding it the wrong way" is Rajas of India, IMHO
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Jan 27, 2016 12:05
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YF-23 posted:I don't really remember seeing much talk about it, but do you remember how we were talking in the thread about how CK2's DLC is poo poo what with always expanding it the wrong way? There's a new DLC to be released on February 2nd that is just the opposite of that, Conclave. It went so far under the radar that they only had time to make 3 dev diaries for it: I guess it's cool that you can now use focii to decide what kind of education your kid will have instead of just hoping.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:27
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Pretty much every expansion that widened the gameplay (be it geographical like Rajas or temporal like Charlemagne) made the game less focused. I'm not saying I don't enjoy stuff like pagan comebacks or whatever, but there were tons of stuff beyond Rajas that made the core game feel neglected.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:29
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Mods, please ban for the '-ii' meme.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:42
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Disappointing egg posted:Mods, please ban for the '-ii' meme. Some people find it humorii.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:45
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YF-23 posted:I don't really remember seeing much talk about it, but do you remember how we were talking in the thread about how CK2's DLC is poo poo what with always expanding it the wrong way? There's a new DLC to be released on February 2nd that is just the opposite of that, Conclave. It went so far under the radar that they only had time to make 3 dev diaries for it: Education changes and council mechanics... Countdown to a total conversion mod for a anime high school game?
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Jan 27, 2016 12:49
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YF-23 posted:Pretty much every expansion that widened the gameplay (be it geographical like Rajas or temporal like Charlemagne) made the game less focused. I'm not saying I don't enjoy stuff like pagan comebacks or whatever, but there were tons of stuff beyond Rajas that made the core game feel neglected. I have to admit, I somewhat like playing in India. It's a bit like a time machine back to the time when we could only play Christians and the earliest start date was 1066. You are surrounded by rulers of your faith on all sides, there are no papal claims to easily conquer territories, there are no hordes that bother you, no vikings that raid you, and the Muslims rarely try to get deeper into India.
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Jan 27, 2016 12:52
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Ofaloaf posted:Saying "senate" in the context of Paradox games probably causes Wiz to blankly stare into the distance, his face unreadable. A single tear rolls down his cheek. Empress Theonora posted:Let's Play! › Bull-men are the epitome of civilization! Europa Universalis: Rome I LOVE HORSES, BEST OF ALL THE ANIMALS! I LOVE HORSES, THEY'RE MY FRIENDS!
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Jan 27, 2016 14:50
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Torrannor posted:I have to admit, I somewhat like playing in India. It's a bit like a time machine back to the time when we could only play Christians and the earliest start date was 1066. You are surrounded by rulers of your faith on all sides, there are no papal claims to easily conquer territories, there are no hordes that bother you, no vikings that raid you, and the Muslims rarely try to get deeper into India.
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Jan 27, 2016 15:02
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I think they have mentioned multiple times that CPU wise India doesn't add much. Why people continue to say that mystifies me.
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Jan 27, 2016 15:07
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YF-23 posted:Pretty much every expansion that widened the gameplay (be it geographical like Rajas or temporal like Charlemagne) made the game less focused. I'm not saying I don't enjoy stuff like pagan comebacks or whatever, but there were tons of stuff beyond Rajas that made the core game feel neglected. Nah, there were plenty of good ones, like Sword of Islam and the Old Gods. The only lovely ones were Rajas of India and Charlemagne, because they pretty much expanded the map (or the timeline) with no consequences for the gameplay. The former gave us an isolated mini-world most players won't ever interact width, the latter simply gave us a new map with three giant, stable blobs and little balancing.
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Jan 27, 2016 15:14
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CharlestheHammer posted:I think they have mentioned multiple times that CPU wise India doesn't add much. Besides the kindest thing you can say about RoJ and all its dev time is "congrats on Sengoku 2" given the lack of interplay with the original region.
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Jan 27, 2016 15:59
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Nah I think people just really want to hate India despite it being perfectly fine.
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Jan 27, 2016 16:00
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India could be better, and it's a bit disappointing that it is so isolated, but it certainly doesn't deserve the dislike it gets. Hopefully when CK3 rolls around it gets a better shake.
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Jan 27, 2016 16:11
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nah I think people just really want to hate India despite it being perfectly fine. Yeah, except that playing there is mind boggling boring and basically all unique mechanics (like the caste system) are half arsed and shoehorned into the game with little care
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Jan 27, 2016 16:21
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Like I said, fine. Not great but fine.
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Jan 27, 2016 16:23
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Gantolandon posted:Nah, there were plenty of good ones, like Sword of Islam and the Old Gods. The only lovely ones were Rajas of India and Charlemagne, because they pretty much expanded the map (or the timeline) with no consequences for the gameplay. The former gave us an isolated mini-world most players won't ever interact width, the latter simply gave us a new map with three giant, stable blobs and little balancing. Old Gods had fun stuff to do and the focus remained in the core European gameplay I suppose, but I don't think anyone has ever had anything good to say about decadence other than "it works, I guess" after balancing done over like fifty patches. And even then, Old Gods primarily is fun because it is essentially an alternate scenario rather than because of deep gameplay. Don't get me wrong though, alternate scenarios are really fun and good and I would be super happy to see more official ones or whatever. Same with stuff like Sunset Invasion!
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Jan 27, 2016 17:23
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I dunno if you can even say Decadence 'works' now. It was a really poorly thought out mechanic designed to punish you, now it's a slightly less exploitable mechanic designed to punish you.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:32
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AdjectiveNoun posted:I dunno if you can even say Decadence 'works' now. It was a really poorly thought out mechanic designed to punish you, now it's a slightly less exploitable mechanic designed to punish you. Its easier to handle now than it used to be. But yeah, its annoying and kinda stupid and I dont think there's any way to fix it. The right thing to do wopuld be to scrap it entirely, but then muslins would became just an easier and overpowered version of regular feudal.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:37
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Including India is cool and good because you can't properly model the Levant without including Persia and you can't properly model Persia without including western India and you can't properly model western India without including the rest of India. I don't think they ever really intended anyone to spend a lot of time playing in India, it's more so that Persia doesn't have a permanently impregnable border to their east that means they can devote all their attention to invading people to their west.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:43
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