Marching Powder posted:

it absolutely floors me that if chris hadn't opened with 'this really annoys me' than we wouldn't have this glorious shitshow. sm could easily have gone the way of private servers. what a loving idiot.

eightace, come back safe, or angry, or get word to us somehow that you can't talk no more. your potential departure from this thread scares the poo poo out of me, as everything you posted scared the poo poo out of cig

Romes128 posted:

no obligation to fulfill kickstarter promises
without much of a potential player base to generate revenue from

Tippis posted:

Pretty much. Or at least they make a strong case for one function that publishers generally have: supervision.



I think there's a whole lot of confusion about what the publishers supposed wickedness consists of. On the one hand, we have the “no-one makes these games any more” side (exemplified by the CRPG revival with Wasteland, Shadowrun, Pillars), where the criticism is at least somewhat valid, and where EA is the evil empire. The large publishing houses want large profits and thus focus on (bi)yearly mass-appeal franchises — it's gaming fast-food. The niche games don't produce those kinds of profits so the funding and interest needs to be established some other way.

On the other hand, we have the “they ruined the director's vision” argument, which tends to be less sensible, and funnily enough for a very similar reason. Publishers don't want “bad games” — they just want something that can be done and released; if some features are cut to reach that goal then so be it. Sensible designers know to limit themselves so there's no conflict between the two (again, see Brian Fargo and Harebrained Schemes); less sensible ones need the supervision to keep them on track, on budget, and on time, which immediately creates conflict between vision and feasibility.

Then there's also the annoyance-factor of some publishers as they saturate media with annoying ads and PR, but that doesn't seem to come up all that much in these discussions.

I think the main issue is that the crowdfunder-darling narrative tends to focus on appeal of the first argument when the real (personal) annoyance of the developer is really the second: “if I could only be free of constraints, I could give the community the game they always wanted.” Roberts and Schafer have both used this argumentation, whereas both the Wasteland development process and the entire line of Harebrained games have been able to separate the two. These teams have been very clear about why they picked the route they picked: because they know they're appealing to a niche market and can't promise a big payout. The grand vision takes a second seat to actually catering to the niche.

Or course, the core conflict here is that it's difficult to have the kind of supervision and oversight needed to keep the wild idea-men in check without the big boot of being able to pull the funding. At the same time, the developers in question will always be able to transform that into the evil publisher killing ideas narrative, even though this control function is critical to actually get anything out before it's obsolete and pointless. If it's your own money you spend on your ever-developing dream, then by all means, go ahead. If it's someone else's, then it's their money you're wasting. What ultimately damned Schafer was that he forgot this and confused which money was supposed to go to what game; what will ultimately condemn Roberts (once the backers start doing their part) is the same: he's wasting their money, not his, and he's trying to build his game, not theirs.

Romes128 posted:

Best example of publisher intervening would be MGS5. By all accounts Kojima was burning through money, having a lot of game music scrapped and redone etc.

First they released GZ as a way to get some cash in cause they knew the project would take a while. But TPP was released ultimately unfinished (the real planned ending is included with the collectors edition).

As much as I believe a developer should be able to create what they want, ultimately it's a business and Konami did the absolute right thing.

CR is playing with other people's money but has no accountability and no one to tell him to just make a friggin game instead of the other bullshit that's going on. Like do you really need 4 offices, mo-cap studios, 4 Web shows, etc.

Romes128 posted:

Best example of publisher intervening would be MGS5. By all accounts Kojima was burning through money, having a lot of game music scrapped and redone etc.

First they released GZ as a way to get some cash in cause they knew the project would take a while. But TPP was released ultimately unfinished (the real planned ending is included with the collectors edition).

As much as I believe a developer should be able to create what they want, ultimately it's a business and Konami did the absolute right thing.

CR is playing with other people's money but has no accountability and no one to tell him to just make a friggin game instead of the other bullshit that's going on. Like do you really need 4 offices, mo-cap studios, 4 Web shows, etc.

Pogue Ma Hoon posted:

EightAce here's a protip: Never let your eyes meet Sandi's, use some sort of mirrored surface to keep track of her.

Tippis posted:

Pretty much. Or at least they make a strong case for one function that publishers generally have: supervision.



what will ultimately condemn Roberts (once the backers start doing their part) is the same: he's wasting their money, not his, and he's trying to build his game, not theirs.

Tippis posted:

Yeah, and in the end, while TPP ended up a bit… stunted, for the lack of a better term, it was still an excellent game. If there ever was a game designer that desperately needed an editor with a big red “NO!”-stamp, it's Kojima. One of its main saving graces was the lack of the regular Kojima:ness (absurd narrative, horrible writing, nonsensical characters) that plagued MGS4. At worst, there's Quiet, which is all of that but still subdued and ultimately saved by being a very fun game mechanic.

Had it been great to have a more complete and coherent second-act story, and some kind of “global disarmament” end-game? Sure. I still don't want to look at how many hours I've sunk into that game because of how good the moment-to-moment gameplay is.

Romes128 posted:

MGS4 has about 8 hours of cutscenes

SQ42 has 10! Enjoy assholes. Lol.

sesame_samuel_ posted:

He has been delayed indefinitely.

ZenMaster posted:

Can anyone (Beer, bootcha, etc) tell me the spark that caused the mass goon migration out of the brown sea? Was it DS's expulsion? Bootcha's revelations of mismanagement, someone being fired everyone liked?


I just wondered.

G0RF posted:

"Let them eat shiite."

Junk Puncher posted:

But let's say, hypothetically, CIG files bankruptcy. And hypothetically there's some sort of injunction and they have to auction assets to repay investors? With E:D et al having some success, I can see a company picking up what they can, either to develop or shelve.

EightAce posted:

I wrote a long post and then deleted it. Its turning into Custers last stand and I just don't want to get people in trouble . I have already said to much I reckon and if people get in the poo poo because of whats discussed here and the very obvious source then that is nothing but bad.
I can highlight some stuff in bullet points but nothing at Derek Smart level of excitement
- A couple of very public faces have left CIG UK right under everyone's noses. This may be out there already . You will know who if you check ATV and all that bollocks and then see who doesn't appear anymore. Not actual game developers just CS monkeys but significant none the less. The old adage poo poo rolls down hill is never so true when you are involved with CIG ... B4TBG email exchange is still causing fallout ... and all the wrong people are getting blamed
- I know what they are currently concentrating on , it is simply unbelievable . I cant say what it is for obvious reasons but it is up there with the farming module. talk about fiddling while Rome burns .....
- All the jobs being advertised are legit and they are getting really desperate now to fill those positions. However they just cant and Mr Smart's blogs are being cited as the reason. if anyone is interested they are paying above industry standard but you might only have the job for another 12 months at best.
- The whole animation system is simply hosed. You are looking at a team of very competent animators working flat out for a year or two to get anything working properly.
- Sq42 looks absolutely stunning (The space bits) FP stuff looks like a PS1 game and no one seems to give a poo poo. However it is not a game, there is no game play or direction. Nothing just amazing graphics in an editor. The whole thing is in a constant state of flux and a dev cycle that was already floundering is now totally FUBARED because the emperor himself is taking a hand in it personally. Some big news outlets have been in there recently doing all sorts of walk around's and interviews.
- All the hilarity and fallout from 10ftc, Starmarine being cancelled and the reddits etc have caused absolutely no concern whatsoever. Literally no one gives a gently caress. The attitude is , ' Its just noise let them have their fun we know better'. Chris in particular is totally detached from it all

The other stuff I cant talk about at the moment because it will be so obvious where its coming from

EightAce posted:

I wrote a long post and then deleted it. Its turning into Custers last stand and I just don't want to get people in trouble . I have already said to much I reckon and if people get in the poo poo because of whats discussed here and the very obvious source then that is nothing but bad.
I can highlight some stuff in bullet points but nothing at Derek Smart level of excitement
- A couple of very public faces have left CIG UK right under everyone's noses. This may be out there already . You will know who if you check ATV and all that bollocks and then see who doesn't appear anymore. Not actual game developers just CS monkeys but significant none the less. The old adage poo poo rolls down hill is never so true when you are involved with CIG ... B4TBG email exchange is still causing fallout ... and all the wrong people are getting blamed
- I know what they are currently concentrating on , it is simply unbelievable . I cant say what it is for obvious reasons but it is up there with the farming module. talk about fiddling while Rome burns .....
- All the jobs being advertised are legit and they are getting really desperate now to fill those positions. However they just cant and Mr Smart's blogs are being cited as the reason. if anyone is interested they are paying above industry standard but you might only have the job for another 12 months at best.
- The whole animation system is simply hosed. You are looking at a team of very competent animators working flat out for a year or two to get anything working properly.
- Sq42 looks absolutely stunning (The space bits) FP stuff looks like a PS1 game and no one seems to give a poo poo. However it is not a game, there is no game play or direction. Nothing just amazing graphics in an editor. The whole thing is in a constant state of flux and a dev cycle that was already floundering is now totally FUBARED because the emperor himself is taking a hand in it personally. Some big news outlets have been in there recently doing all sorts of walk around's and interviews.
- All the hilarity and fallout from 10ftc, Starmarine being cancelled and the reddits etc have caused absolutely no concern whatsoever. Literally no one gives a gently caress. The attitude is , ' Its just noise let them have their fun we know better'. Chris in particular is totally detached from it all

The other stuff I cant talk about at the moment because it will be so obvious where its coming from

EightAce posted:

Romes128 posted:

MGS4 has about 8 hours of cutscenes

SQ42 has 10! Enjoy assholes. Lol.