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AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

Chin posted:

http://www.twitch.tv/geekdomo/v/41522304?t=45m32s

CIG showed the thread's second favorite anime enthusiast something so amazing he gets choked up just talking about it. It would totally change everyone's mind if they saw it but it's not ready yet.

CIG is not in the practice of releasing unpolished things, you see.

Warning SQ42 Spoiler

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Norefund14days
Feb 2, 2016

NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU PARP IN SPACE.
Kickstarter doesn't care.


Gary (Kickstarter)

Feb 5, 4:59 PM

Hi Jason,

Thanks for reaching out and bringing this to our attention. I’m sorry to hear that backing the Star Citizen project has been a frustrating experience.

Projects that launch on Kickstarter are often in the early stages of development. As such, creators will occasionally miss the mark on their initial estimated completion dates. Delays can occur for any number of reasons, but they are almost always in order to maintain or improve the quality of the project’s end result. Still, it’s important to us that creators communicate this information to backers along the way.

If you have questions regarding the status of the project, I encourage you to post a comment, or even reach out to the creator directly. To message a project creator, visit the project page and click on the creator's profile image. This will open up their bio page where you can click the blue "Contact me" link to send them a message. Thanks for being a thoughtful backer and part of the Kickstarter community.

Best,
Gary

Norefund14days
Feb 2, 2016

NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU PARP IN SPACE.
BBB does!

Complaint ID#: 465960
Business Name: Cloud Imperium Games, LLC

Thank you for contacting BBB. Your complaint was received by BBB on February 1, 2016 and has been assigned case# 465960in our files. Please make a note of this number for future reference.

Your complaint has been applied to the following business:
Cloud Imperium Games, LLC
1316 3rd Street Promenade Ste 111
Santa Monica, CA 90401-1324

The case has been reviewed and has now been forwarded to the business for their response. This business has until February 25, 2016 to respond to your complaint. You may contact our office after February 25, 2016 to check the status of your complaint.

We encourage you to use our ONLINE COMPLAINT system to keep up with the progress of this complaint. To view the details of your case please go to the following website address: http://sanjose.app.bbb.org/complaint/view/465960/c/a9vy97.

Sincerely,

Maria Nevarez
Complaint Specialist
BBB Complaint Department

Norefund14days
Feb 2, 2016

NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU PARP IN SPACE.
Guess the FTC does too!

Complaint Submitted - Your reference number is: 69053016

Thank you for contacting the Federal Trade Commission. We have given your complaint the reference number listed above. Please use that reference number if you need to contact us about your complaint in the future.

Once we have reviewed your complaint, you may receive another email with additional information that may further assist you.

Here are link(s) to the publications you may find useful:Shopping Online

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

c2usaf2004 posted:

Guess the FTC does too!

How much is your refund amount?

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

I realized what's keeping me from selling the rest of my ships. I don't want to be like CIG and make a mint off gullible idiots.




Lot's of chris-like thinking itt.

Can you gift a gifted ship to someone else? Make a thread somewhere for people to "try" the game and ships and give them away on the condition that, after a week or whatever, they give the account/ships to somebody else. The more people that play this shitstorm the less money CIG gets. Then, after a while, you do a charge back. CIG would triple-gently caress you without batting an eye given a chance, gently caress them back a little bit more.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

Kavak posted:

Obsidian did both Pillars of Eternity and (Partially) Wasteland II and had publishers for them. I think the idea is that these are very niche products that need money up front for development- someone had a post a few days ago about this.

Bigger name publishers and developers have an interest in crowdfunding because it can be an extremely effective method of building hype and awareness and it even brings money in rather than money having to be spent, especially in the case of projects where they want to secure more funding from actual investors and want something to show them to go "see, look at all this interest we generated." Like look at Shenmue 3, there's no realistic way that Shenmue 3 is going to be made 100% off what they raised through the Kickstarter for it, but they announced the Kickstarter at E3 and hype levels went through the roof and hey, they even pulled in a bunch of backer money they can add to whatever other sources of funding they receive.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfC_PVxaCkA

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me



Marching Powder posted:

captain b'tak is so retarded in every single way that makes him entirely unsympathetic.

quote:

Captain B'Tak was a Klingon in command of the IKS Ya'Vang in 2375. He remained loyal to Martok during the Morjod coop. (DS9 - The Left Hand of Destiny, Book Two novel)
fideles quoad decedemus commando o9

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6FDNInQ1w

Prop Wash
Jun 12, 2010



trucutru posted:

Lot's of chris-like thinking itt.

Can you gift a gifted ship to someone else? Make a thread somewhere for people to "try" the game and ships and give them away on the condition that, after a week or whatever, they give the account/ships to somebody else. The more people that play this shitstorm the less money CIG gets. Then, after a while, you do a charge back. CIG would triple-gently caress you without batting an eye given a chance, gently caress them back a little bit more.

If anyone else did this our advice would be to steal their ships immediately. His ships will get stolen. Sell them.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007


the Home Alone trap module is working gangbusters.

Kakarot
Jul 20, 2013

by zen death robot
Buglord

ThoughtBomb posted:



Forgive Me...

good

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Kai Tave posted:

Bigger name publishers and developers have an interest in crowdfunding because it can be an extremely effective method of building hype and awareness and it even brings money in rather than money having to be spent, especially in the case of projects where they want to secure more funding from actual investors and want something to show them to go "see, look at all this interest we generated." Like look at Shenmue 3, there's no realistic way that Shenmue 3 is going to be made 100% off what they raised through the Kickstarter for it, but they announced the Kickstarter at E3 and hype levels went through the roof and hey, they even pulled in a bunch of backer money they can add to whatever other sources of funding they receive.

In essence, it's one of the better risk management tools the publishers have gotten their hands on… I'd almost say ever. Best-case scenario is that they've made a profit before production even begins — all they have to do is stay on time and on scope. Worst-case, they have a rough estimate of the core fanbase, from which they can probably project future sales (and, of course, they have slightly less capital at risk).

I think it's also important to really emphasise the point of hype and awareness. One of the things that the AAA-tier publishers really have over smaller ones is AAA-tier marketing, but of course, that's a bit of a double-edge sword: those huge campaigns cost a bundle and are aimed at a broad market, neither of which is applicable to the niche games that have become the poster children of crowdfunding. Those publishers may still not be interested in the KS markets, but for the lower-tiered ones, the self-generating and self-targeting hype and awareness is itself such an important and cost-saving feature that it significantly reduces the risks of taking on a project and inject some of their own capital.

Of course, all of that will most likely still be true if and when SC's failure shakes up the crowdfunding scene, but it will also most likely drive a wedge between the small developer and the medium publisher that previously might have been willing to pick the final game up. Fewer backers willing to trust an unknown means lowered risk-reduction on the publisher end at the same time make it harder to build a catalogue of previous successes that closes that gap.

Mendrian
Jan 6, 2013

Honestly I expect when/if SC fails it'll be a cautionary tale for a small set of gamers and little else. I like to think Kickstarter might amend a few of its policies too but that's probably a dream.

Revelation 2-13
May 13, 2010

Pillbug
I really think the: 'Well, Star citizen sucks, and can't meet deadlines, if only they had a PUBLISHER, everything would be good, publishers are clearly needed' argument is stupid as gently caress.

What star citizen has needed has been prober management, not a publisher. It's possible that a publisher could have provided better mangement, but it's pretty silly to think that is the solution to anything, they might as well just have hosed it up even more. Like forcing CIG to implement even more insidious ways to milk the retards (if such a thing is possible, I'm sure EA would be able to come up with it). It really is a matter of perspective, in some sense, CIG are really doing a very publisher-like thing, in not actually caring about making the game (or the quality of the game), but are much more interested just finding a way to keep the money coming in. MOAR MONEY. Mooooooree. Which isn't really weird today, but at odds with how SC was marketed.

Regardless, plenty of companies (and projects, and organizations) work just fine without a board of directors or similar. Even companies with single (and dictatorial) owners can work just fine. The problem with CIG pretty clearly seems to be that CR has run amok, and simply don't have the managerial skills needed (for all his producer experience). They desperately needed (I think it's too late now) to have a strong, responsible counter to CRs madness, and they didn't.

Publishers (for the most part) are still a loving blight on game development (and I would argue on music and literature as well, though they play a significantly different role in literature) and star citizen going down in a blaze of unglory, is not proof that publishers are needed for anything or even that a publisher would have saved atar citizen somehow.

Revelation 2-13 fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Feb 7, 2016

TheLastRoboKy
May 2, 2009

Finishing the game with everyone else's continues

Revelation 2-13 posted:

What star citizen has needed has been proper management, not a publisher.

This is pretty much the long and short of it. So long as Chris Roberts was a part of it, money was basically being pissed directly into a shower drain. A publisher would likely have just had to do what Microsoft did last time and just remove him from things so it could actually have progress. By then he'd have probably wasted a good heap of their money as it was.

Bioshock Infinite was probably a good example of that. I've heard many different things about the game's iterations, and examining it from the many ways it was presented to what actually got published is a good cautionary tale in letting any one figure at the top of a company play fast and loose with production.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015

ThoughtBomb posted:



Forgive Me...

This might be the second best thing to come out of star citizen (right after the fourth stimpire).

Baller Time
Apr 22, 2014

by Azathoth

Tokamak posted:

Croberts is a busy man and needs to attend daily unapproval meetings with his artists, commando.

Hi I fixed your post for you

Scruffpuff
Dec 23, 2015

Fidelity. Wait, was I'm working on again?

Revelation 2-13 posted:

I really think the: 'Well, Star citizen sucks, and can't meet deadlines, if only they had a PUBLISHER, everything would be good, publishers are clearly needed' argument is stupid as gently caress.

It needed accountability - someone to remove, or at the least rein in, Chris. A publisher is one way to do that, but there are plenty of others. Unfortunately there is no counter to Chris here, so he gets to reap whatever comes of his grand experiment.

Loxbourne
Apr 6, 2011

Tomorrow, doom!
But now, tea.

TheLastRoboKy posted:

Bioshock Infinite was probably a good example of that.

Do you have any sources for this? There were a lot of rumours swirling around when the game came out, but have people actually started to come forward with the tale?

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Revelation 2-13 posted:

Publishers (for the most part) are still a loving blight on game development (and I would argue on music and literature as well, though they play a significantly different role in literature) and star citizen going down in a blaze of unglory, is not proof that publishers are needed for anything or even that a publisher would have saved atar citizen somehow.

That's true enough. What it proves is that accountability and oversight is needed — publishers are simply the most common method of creating both. Some directors have the restraint and business sense to do it on their own; most do not, which is where a third party needs to come in and start whipping people in line if (when) they go off the rails.

As others have mentioned, we have already seen this story play out once: Freelancer was saved when MS took control away from Chris. It won't happen again, partly because Chris won't allow it, and partly because it's slipped so far down the slope that no sane publisher would want to touch the thing any more.

e:f;b

Tippis fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Feb 7, 2016

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015

Tippis posted:

That's true enough. What it proves is that accountability and oversight is needed — publishers are simply the most common method of creating both.

I am not sure I agree. Having an incentive for the leadership to keep the costs down and make progress is as good a tool as any, normally, when you look at an indie developer / smaller game studio, their own money is on the line, so they try to do as well for as little as possible.

All of this has been removed form the equation for Star Citizen, there is a seemingly infinite amount of money that keeps piling up as long as they are making any progress, no matter the pace. It is in their best interest to keep the development fundraising going for as long as possible.


On an unrelated note, have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufV8KER8x0o

I like how the one sentence that Sandi says in the first few minutes is basically the same as what a TV shop presenter would do to drum up the crap they're flogging (Oh wow and this is just the basic version???) followed by the cluelessness of Ben (well do we have any other versions?... Uhm, yeah.). It says so much about this project, it must be utterly depressing being a developer there.

TheLastRoboKy
May 2, 2009

Finishing the game with everyone else's continues

Loxbourne posted:

Do you have any sources for this? There were a lot of rumours swirling around when the game came out, but have people actually started to come forward with the tale?

http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/6/5474722/why-did-irrational-close-bioshock-infinite

I think this is a pretty good article that sums it all up pretty tightly. Which is just as well cause otherwise I'd be stuck digging old PC Powerplay issues out of my closet.

lollontee
Nov 4, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

ThoughtBomb posted:



Forgive Me...

oh my god

lollontee
Nov 4, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
somebody please turn that into an av

Salt n Reba McEntire
Nov 14, 2000

Kuparp.

If they're closing things for not understanding development, they also need to close one million accounts, fourteen companies, four studios and Chris Roberts' mouth.

KiddieGrinder
Nov 15, 2005

HELP ME

ThoughtBomb posted:



Forgive Me...

I can see Oldman was added in by you, which is well done and funny.

But is that helmet opening unfolding from CIG? I mean, they want to put that in the 'game' at some point? Or did you add those too yourself? I'm having a hard time believing Crobberts specifically wanted it like that. :psyduck:

edit: basically I'm having trouble distinguishing what might be a funny "lol I'm gonna make the helmet unfold like a loving flower, this overly complicated helmet opening animation is so loving dumb nothing would actually work like this, think of all the mechanical poo poo that could and would go wrong haha", and the reality of Mushmouth sitting down with the designers and gesturing wildly mumbling about making it "unfold" and "look cool".

KiddieGrinder fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Feb 7, 2016

TheLastRoboKy
May 2, 2009

Finishing the game with everyone else's continues

Moogle posted:

If they're closing things for not understanding development, they also need to close one million accounts, fourteen companies, four studios and Chris Roberts' mouth.

Chris would just mumble out the sides and wave his arms around anyway.


KiddieGrinder posted:

I can see Oldman was added in by you, which is well done and funny.

But is that helmet opening unfolding from CIG? I mean, they want to put that in the 'game' at some point? Or did you add those too yourself? I'm having a hard time believing Crobberts specifically wanted it like that. :psyduck:

edit: basically I'm having trouble distinguishing what might be a funny "lol I'm gonna make the helmet unfold like a loving flower, this overly complicated helmet opening animation is so loving dumb nothing would actually work like this, think of all the mechanical poo poo that could and would go wrong haha", and the reality of Mushmouth sitting down with the designers and gesturing wildly mumbling about making it "unfold" and "look cool".

Even better it unfolds to show the same face as everyone else's because they're never going to get to the point where anyone has any measure of facial variation outside of SQ42.

Ledenko
Aug 10, 2012

KiddieGrinder posted:

I can see Oldman was added in by you, which is well done and funny.

But is that helmet opening unfolding from CIG? I mean, they want to put that in the 'game' at some point? Or did you add those too yourself? I'm having a hard time believing Crobberts specifically wanted it like that. :psyduck:

edit: basically I'm having trouble distinguishing what might be a funny "lol I'm gonna make the helmet unfold like a loving flower, this overly complicated helmet opening animation is so loving dumb nothing would actually work like this, think of all the mechanical poo poo that could and would go wrong haha", and the reality of Mushmouth sitting down with the designers and gesturing wildly mumbling about making it "unfold" and "look cool".

That's all og SC. Haven't you seen any "gameplay" videos? The whole thing is riddled with stupid poo poo like that, you can't get into a ship without bits doing complicated ballet movements to get out of your way.

Daztek
Jun 2, 2006



KiddieGrinder posted:

I can see Oldman was added in by you, which is well done and funny.

But is that helmet opening unfolding from CIG? I mean, they want to put that in the 'game' at some point? Or did you add those too yourself? I'm having a hard time believing Crobberts specifically wanted it like that. :psyduck:

edit: basically I'm having trouble distinguishing what might be a funny "lol I'm gonna make the helmet unfold like a loving flower, this overly complicated helmet opening animation is so loving dumb nothing would actually work like this, think of all the mechanical poo poo that could and would go wrong haha", and the reality of Mushmouth sitting down with the designers and gesturing wildly mumbling about making it "unfold" and "look cool".

https://gfycat.com/JubilantConventionalCarpenterant :negative:

KiddieGrinder
Nov 15, 2005

HELP ME

TheLastRoboKy posted:

Even better it unfolds to show the same face as everyone else's because they're never going to get to the point where anyone has any measure of facial variation outside of SQ42.

Ledenko posted:

That's all og SC. Haven't you seen any "gameplay" videos? The whole thing is riddled with stupid poo poo like that, you can't get into a ship without bits doing complicated ballet movements to get out of your way.


:smithicide:

MeLKoR
Dec 23, 2004

by FactsAreUseless

:boom:

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Iglocska posted:

I am not sure I agree. Having an incentive for the leadership to keep the costs down and make progress is as good a tool as any, normally, when you look at an indie developer / smaller game studio, their own money is on the line, so they try to do as well for as little as possible.

See my amended edit: some developers understand the need to actually make progress; some do not. The accountability and oversight I'm talking about in the normal, sensible case is the exact same thing as the incentive you're talking about : ensuring that the costs do not threaten to exceed the initial funding and projected sales. Someone a the top takes a macro-level perspective on the project and watches the bottom line, because that's what's best for everyone involved. It can be the developer or it can be the publisher or investor or whathaveyou. The effect is much the same: there are goals and there are limited means to get there, and someone needs to ensure that they match.

Now, granted, that assumes that the goal is actually to release something, but as you point out, SC seems to have stumbled onto this perverse incentive of keeping the development going instead. The thing is, though, that I'm still convinced that this is not actually Chris' incentive. I think he has simply forgotten that money is a factor, which is a slightly different problem. His incentive is simply to create the BDSSGE: he has a goal, but the means part of the equation is something that, based on his previous exploits, I think he never actually understood it to begin with. In a sense, that's an even bigger problem than having a perverse incentive not to make progress.

e: That is not to say that someone (or indeed almost everyone) at CIG might not be guided to that perverse incentive, and are making the most of the situation, but I get the distinct feeling that Chris, specifically, is so disconnected from the whole thing that his actions are motivated by something else.

Tippis fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Feb 7, 2016

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Moogle posted:

If they're closing things for not understanding development, they also need to close one million accounts, fourteen companies, four studios and Chris Roberts' mouth.

If only there was some way for the most openly developed game ever to somehow separate rumors from facts for its supporters...

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

lollontee
Nov 4, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

anybody else getting broken bbcode with ultraimg gifs?

KiddieGrinder
Nov 15, 2005

HELP ME

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

If only there was some way for the most openly developed game ever to somehow separate rumors from facts for its supporters...

Closed and banned for not understanding game development. :cop:

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TheLastRoboKy
May 2, 2009

Finishing the game with everyone else's continues

Not gonna lie though if that helmet was part of your transforming into Kamen Rider I'd be okay with it. But I imagine in Star Citizen it would be a tedious view-distorting/blocking process where you waited for an external camera to turn on and off and a whole bunch of other useless poo poo.

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