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DACK FAYDEN posted:Games are for fun gameplay Xenogears isn't really one of those games, though.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:04
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Xenogears, I think, benefits from being a game in terms of allowing for slower exploration and worldbuilding which is one of its strengths. Novels and movies don't do that and in turn they can't really replicate that particular strength. This is also why something like Trails in the Sky wouldn't really work as an anime for me because the strong parts of it are not the core plot but the smaller elements that you get from NPCs and exploring the world. In comparison Xenosaga could lose almost all of its gameplay and you'd miss basically nothing.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:07
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ImpAtom posted:Xenogears, I think, benefits from being a game in terms of allowing for slower exploration and worldbuilding which is one of its strengths. Novels and movies don't do that and in turn they can't really replicate that particular strength. This is also why something like Trails in the Sky wouldn't really work as an anime for me because the strong parts of it are not the core plot but the smaller elements that you get from NPCs and exploring the world. Isn't Xenosaga the one where Europe just got the third game and then a DVD containing all of the first and second games' cutscenes?
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Feb 11, 2016 17:10
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Erg posted:Isn't Xenosaga the one where Europe just got the third game and then a DVD containing all of the first and second games' cutscenes? I'm not sure about that but I know that the preorder bonus for Xenosaga 2 in the US was a DVD of the first game's cutscenes!
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Feb 11, 2016 17:11
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Erg posted:Isn't Xenosaga the one where Europe just got the third game and then a DVD containing all of the first and second games' cutscenes? No, we only got the second one with a DVD of the first 
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Feb 11, 2016 17:14
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Erg posted:Isn't Xenosaga the one where Europe just got the third game and then a DVD containing all of the first and second games' cutscenes? It's worse than that. As far as I know, Europe and Australia only got Episode II and to make up for them not getting 1, they got a DVD of 1's cutscenes. It's rather cruel they only got the absolute worst entry in the trilogy.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:14
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Endorph posted:There are games that make use of their gameplay in order to get their plot across in interesting and unique ways that wouldn't be possible outside of the medium. Can you give me an example of a game where you thought this was the case and explain how their use of game play got the plot across in a unique or better way? I gotta be honest. I have never played such a game. There is no game that I have played with a story (good or bad) where I thought it was best told using video games as the medium. In fact, whenever I play a game with a good story and not so great game play I always end up thinking to myself that it would be better if animated and occasionally even live action.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:33
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majora's mask
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Feb 11, 2016 17:33
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Finally the "are games art" debate has been settled. Turns out that they aren't art, but porn. Who could have guessed?
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Feb 11, 2016 17:34
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Endorph posted:majora's mask I am not trying to rip on Majora's Mask when I say this, but there really isn't much of a story there to be told. That's a different situation entirely.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:35
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Xavier434 posted:I am not trying to rip on Majora's Mask when I say this, but there really isn't much of a story there to be told. That's a different situation entirely. Majora's Mask gets makes use of its gameplay mechanics to help reinforce its mood, because mood is what it's going for.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:37
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VLR?
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Feb 11, 2016 17:40
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really though, it doesn't have to be some huge thing that reinforces games as art. Just something as simple as the gag in FF7 where Don Corneo gives you a dialogue option and then the Turks bust in out nowhere and turn the dialogue option back on him, and a little 'bzzt' noise plays when he guesses wrong. That alone is using the unique language of games as a storytelling tool - in this case, making a joke.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:44
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I am absolutely not going to attempt to qualify this statement at 3 am and I'll probably regret it when I wake up but FF7 does some interesting things with the connection between player and protagonist, like the player taking the truth of the Nibelheim flashback for granted because it's playable. Like anyone needs it recommended to them at this point but I'm pretty sure Elentor mentions some of it in his LP. E: I totally wound up trying to qualify that statement.  Whether the resulting paragraph made any sense is up in the air, however.
AlphaKretin fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 17:44
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Xavier434 posted:Can you give me an example of a game where you thought this was the case and explain how their use of game play got the plot across in a unique or better way? I gotta be honest. I have never played such a game. There is no game that I have played with a story (good or bad) where I thought it was best told using video games as the medium. In fact, whenever I play a game with a good story and not so great game play I always end up thinking to myself that it would be better if animated and occasionally even live action. What about games where you control the story? RPGs or Adventure games or whatever? I can't say if it makes the stories better but it certainly offers a unique experience. It's why I like Heavy Rain. The story in HR is hardly a unique masterpiece but stuff like me being the one who cuts off Ethan's finger really made the game very memorable. There's also Metal Gear Solid 2, who's plot is entirely hinged on it being a game you are playing because the game was meant to troll video game players.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:46
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AlphaKretin posted:I am absolutely not going to attempt to qualify this statement at 3 am and I'll probably regret it when I wake up but FF7 does some interesting things with the connection between player and protagonist, like the player taking the truth of the Nibelheim flashback for granted because it's playable. Like anyone needs it recommended to them at this point but I'm pretty sure Elentor mentions some of it in his LP.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:49
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There are a lot of contenders, I think, where core mechanics and elements are about reinforcing the plot/theme/circumstances of the world. Halo's regenerating shield was important because it shows that you're a big dick super soldier. Even if you didn't get into the books and such, it helps set you apart from the Marines who show up. Fire Emblem games have unique characters, and the permadeath mechanic helps you as the tactician foster a careful attitude towards the characters and it allows you to see them progress as characters through the game via interactions. Skyrim's shouts make you an outcast or legend, and not just another person inhabiting the region. Metal Gear Solid's alert system and your relatively meager health makes sure you know that even though you are the/a clone of the greatest soldier to ever live, that greatness comes from a problem solving ability, not just being inherently better like Chief. These are just a few games that I could think of while taking a poo poo. Mechanics as a plot/story element are common.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:50
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FF7 makes you push a button to do it yourself during the bit where controlled Cloud almost kills Aerith.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:51
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DACK FAYDEN posted:I would unironically prefer this  It just came out and it's what you have been looking your whole life. Please do the honorable thing and buy a Wii U, so says the ghost of Satoru Iwata.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:51
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Sakurazuka posted:FF7 makes you push a button to do it yourself during the bit where controlled Cloud almost kills Aerith. i like the part in MGS3 where you have to pull the trigger on Boss
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Feb 11, 2016 17:53
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Xavier434 posted:Can you give me an example of a game where you thought this was the case and explain how their use of game play got the plot across in a unique or better way? I gotta be honest. I have never played such a game. There is no game that I have played with a story (good or bad) where I thought it was best told using video games as the medium. In fact, whenever I play a game with a good story and not so great game play I always end up thinking to myself that it would be better if animated and occasionally even live action. Undertale. Its a story that just couldnt work in any other medium.
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Feb 11, 2016 17:53
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Endorph posted:i like the part in MGS3 where you have to pull the trigger on Boss that moment was the only time a video game actually affected me on an emotional level, like i wasn't crying or anything like that but i def hesitated for a while MGS as a series has always been pretty good about using the fact it's a game to influence the story, like the part in MGS4 where you are forced to crawl for like a minute thru that nuclear tube while Snake is pretty much dying or the entire last act of MGS2 for a game that gets derided for cutscene length it has actually been pretty good about creating segments where they could have done a cutscene but chose to make you play it out
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Feb 11, 2016 18:00
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Sakurazuka posted:FF7 makes you push a button to do it yourself during the bit where controlled Cloud almost kills Aerith. Yeah, FF7 used this well a couple times. In the part with Aeris you still have enough control to try and jerk the sword away, but the only way to progress the game is bit-by-bit bringing it down on her. It gives this feeling of inevitability and dread, but you know you're still the one making it happen. Then later on when Cloud gives Sephiroth the black materia, you take control of a little "young Cloud" ghost. While you watch adult Cloud move toward Sephiroth you can run around and try to stop him. You can actually slow him down, but you can't make him stop. So as a player you're frustrated that you have agency but no control over what is happening. Both sequences really put you in the mindset of what Cloud is feeling- frustration and fear at not having control over his own actions.
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Feb 11, 2016 18:01
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Your (E: mandatory lesbian) comment about getting emotional made me think of Mother 3. Actually that whole series would have really boring final battles in non-interactive formats. (That is, to watch.) One character (or the party in 1 I guess) repeats one fairly passive action while the enemy whales on them for a bit, but it's fairly compelling to actually play.
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Feb 11, 2016 18:03
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It would be a major spoiler to explain, but a Tale of Two Brothers has section in the ending that would be standard fare in a movie, but the game used it's game mechanics to create an awesome, emotional scene. Also, the roulette system in Crisis Core made me tear up during Zack's last stand, which came completely from the left field to me.
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Feb 11, 2016 18:16
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Endorph posted:yeah, that too. Really, people who make statements like 'this would be better as an anime' or kind of overfocused on the literal text and not how it being a game changes how that text is interpreted by the player. Like, sure, FF7 would work as an anime. You'd have to rewrite some gags, not to mention the story sequences where the game just kind of rolls with you having only 3 party members and everyone else being in a bizarre pocket dimension, but it'd work. That doesn't mean that it'd be 'better' as an anime or anything, though. FF7 is a game, and it was written with being a game in mind. The fact that it's a game changes how the player reacts to the story, even though the story is mostly presented through dialogue and visuals, things that could easily be recreated in other mediums. I guess what it boils down to is subjective taste. I have played nearly every game cited here so far since I asked my question. I like most of them too. I just did not find that being within a video game medium made the story aspect of the experience more enjoyable. I have played games where the overall experience was much better than any animated version could possibly offer, but I always felt that this was because the game play was a lot of fun in addition to but also mutually exclusive from the story. In other words, I never felt that the game play elements actually made the story itself better. I usually either have a neutral feeling about it or I think it makes it worse. The closest is probably the whole "choose your own adventure" style games such as those with the Bioware model, but I never really liked that sort of thing anyways. I never even enjoyed the choose your own adventure books as a kid.
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Feb 11, 2016 18:41
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Most of the things people have cited used the game aspect to force you to be involved in powerful story moments, making you feel the things the characters feel more than simply passively watching or reading about events happening. I'd say stuff like "choose your own adventure" games or even dialog trees are too removed and abstract to accomplish that, though. Sorry if none of them have worked for you personally, but games, as an interactive medium, have the ability to get you involved in what's happening in a way no other storytelling medium can.
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Feb 11, 2016 18:59
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Saoshyant posted:
Same with a PS4 and Dragon Quest Heroes (and FFXV on console rather than PC.)
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Feb 11, 2016 19:02
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AlphaKretin posted:poo poo, rereading the FF7 LP and playing 12 made me forget 13 and Toriyama exist. Lightning's on him. Pretty sure Toriyama's goal in live is to be on Lightning. Saoshyant posted:
Some day I'll get around to buying a Wii U and this is the top of the list of games to play when that day comes. DACK FAYDEN posted:Been debating buying one literally just for that (and I guess I would also play Bayonetta 2 and probably Mario Maker) ever since it came out. Waiting on a really good sale. Dragon Quest Heroes is available on Steam.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:07
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Video games often do things that could only be done in an interactive medium, they just do so in a way that you don't inherently think about them. Like there is actually a difference between losing a character in a game and a character dying in a film. A character in a game connects with the player in a variety of ways, not the least of which is "this is a good/cool/useful character." Losing that character actually makes you feel frustrated or unhappy or can evoke feelings of "if (x) was still here I could just do (y)..." and so-on. It isn't a giant mind-numbing world-breaking change and by and large you probably don't even notice it consciously but it still has an impact on it. Something like XCOM takes advantage of the fact that these bundles of stats have actual meaning to you to make you hesitate to put them into harm's way and for many people this means they start forming connections to them and actually feel regret or sadness when Bob Dongwanker eats a Thin man blast to the face on the last part of a mission. Savestates or Quickloading can weaken this a little but even the act of hopping back to save someone can do that. (And can be an entire gameplay mechanic like Life is Strange or Radiant Historia.) Even the sense of power that comes from power fantasy games is part of this. The feeling of getting a big-rear end weapon after a game of being weak and ineffectual is absolutely something more visceral that the vicarious enjoyment you get from seeing a film protagonist do the same. The moment you get a flamethrower in Alien Isolation is a huge difference from merely seeing it happen in a film.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:08
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Schwartzcough posted:Most of the things people have cited used the game aspect to force you to be involved in powerful story moments, making you feel the things the characters feel more than simply passively watching or reading about events happening. I'd say stuff like "choose your own adventure" games or even dialog trees are too removed and abstract to accomplish that, though. Sorry if none of them have worked for you personally, but games, as an interactive medium, have the ability to get you involved in what's happening in a way no other storytelling medium can. ImpAtom posted:Video games often do things that could only be done in an interactive medium, they just do so in a way that you don't inherently think about them. I don't know. I understand and appreciate the connections that both of your are talking about but the thing is that I experience that kind of stuff in just as strong of way by just watching it. Often times, watching is even stronger for me depending on how well it is done. I have never developed a stronger connection to a story or character just because I lose a game play ability or stat like you mention in your XCOM example though. Not any more than I would watching an animated file where I thought that a particular character might have survived the latest battle if that other character who just died an hour ago was still alive. As far as the enjoyment that I experience from getting a special item, I usually consider that a game play element unless the game's story makes a really big deal out of it. But again, even when it does I never experience a stronger feeling or connection than I do when watching a film/show do the same thing instead. None of this stuff is unique to gaming or at least not to me. I think a lot of it is because my mind very clearly separates game play enjoyment from story enjoyment even when both are happening almost simultaneously while playing video games. We are all wired differently I guess. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 19:18
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NikkolasKing posted:Incidentally, he's not really involved in the Xeno community at all anymore. After years of maintaining a now defunct site and writing a bunch of essays he just got tired of the whole franchise and moved on. Still a huge Evangelion fan though, which bewilders me but oh well. By any chance, would your friend happen to be overly fixated on the plight of male circumcision?
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Feb 11, 2016 19:20
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I don't particularly want to spoil a huge thing for a game ending here, but I'll just cite Ending D from NieR as a really powerful moment of interactivity reinforcing the story and emotional impact.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:23
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999's final puzzle (and retroactively the entire game) was also something you could only do in a video game.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:26
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Xavier434 posted:I don't know. I understand and appreciate the connections that both of your are talking about but the thing is that I experience that kind of stuff in just as strong of way by just watching it. Often times, watching is even stronger for me depending on how well it is done. Why do you play video games then? I mean that seriously. You play them for 'fun' but why are video games fun if they don't evoke emotions from you that you can't get from films? Gameplay is part of the story. The feeling you get when you level up and get a new skill and it's a really cool new skill and suddenly Character X is a lot more useful to you than before is still forming an attachment to that character.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:29
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Evil Fluffy posted:Dragon Quest Heroes is available on Steam. How did I miss that? Thanks. I guess I still am thoroughly in the "don't need a PS4" category, then!
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Feb 11, 2016 19:34
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My next character is going to be named Bob Dongwanker now
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Feb 11, 2016 19:37
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Endorph posted:the boss fight the weird elephant thing is also a bit of a pain Which boss is this? The at the start of Zanarkand after you kill Seymour?
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Feb 11, 2016 19:38
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Momomo posted:999's final puzzle (and retroactively the entire game) was also something you could only do in a video game. Uh you can play sudoku anywhere my friend
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Feb 11, 2016 19:38
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ImpAtom posted:Why do you play video games then? I mean that seriously. You play them for 'fun' but why are video games fun if they don't evoke emotions from you that you can't get from films? Gameplay is part of the story. The feeling you get when you level up and get a new skill and it's a really cool new skill and suddenly Character X is a lot more useful to you than before is still forming an attachment to that character. Because the overall experience is different and very enjoyable (not to be confused with "better") because sometimes I want to experience what I feel when engaging in the game play elements of a video game. I do enjoy a lot of stories in games, but if a game has a great story and very weak game play elements then the odds of me finishing it are much less likely. Using your example, I personally do not become more attached to my character as a result of the feeling that I get when leveling up or any other form of numbers going up. That feeling, for me, is entirely separate from the story and characters. Now, more to your point, if I get a weapon that has a unique look and my character has some pretty distinguishable animations associated with using that weapon then I will become more attached to the character for those reasons, but that feeling of attachment is no different than what I feel when I watch the same thing happen on film. It is not that every aspect of game play has no impact on my connections to the story or characters. Some do have an influence on those things but many do not. It is those that do not which are usually more unique to video games in general. The game play features that do invoke connections to story/characters for me have never done so in a way that was unique to video games. But look...this is just what makes me tick. This is not some type of universal truth for everyone and nor is it "better" or "worse" in any way.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:47
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