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Mans posted:The "millions of europeans enslaved by Barbarian pirates" came from a dude who assumed the peak of barbary slavery was the regular yearly number of captives and as such assumed that that number was constantly high during 400 straight years. And the slaves in galleys was never true. reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee What do you mean here? North African pirates greatly threatened the Mediterranean coast from the 8th-11th century and then again from the 14th century down to the early 19th century. With the peak in that last period being in the 16th century (though the 8th-11th century were probably the most devastating as the Christian Mediterranean nations were unable to organize themselves at all to defend their coasts and many coastal regions were pretty much abandoned and Muslim pirate lords set up shop in the Alps, Italy, Sicily, Crete and the Balearic islands). And slaves did row galleys, just not war galleys as that was something that required alot of skill and dedication, forced labor at a galley oar was also a rather common punishment for crimes in Mediterranean nations. Most people captured as slaves were sold at the slave market in Tunis, where they found themselves all over the Islamic world, though alot of skilled sailors who were enslaved did end up becoming Corsair captains themselves (there were also a large number of Turks and Albanians among the corsair captains) A Buttery Pastry posted:Actually, I think you'll find that African slavery of white people exceeded white slavery of Africans. I know you're being ironic here, but I just want to say that this argument, even if it were true, is really dumb since (among other things like two wrongs not making a right) it wasn't at all the same Africans who were brought as slaves to America who did the slaving in the Mediterranean.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:49
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I read a cool book at my grandmother's house when I was a kid, called "Two Dover Boys", about the heathen Moslem Barbarossa and his corsairs.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:02
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Today's HOI4 Dev Diary is out now. I like this a lot, whack-a-mole ending in pitched battles with small armies of rebels never felt like it modeled resistance and rebellion in any meaningful way. This seems like a much better system, both in strategic terms as far as deciding how harsh to be or whether to hand away occupations and in verisimilitude.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:15
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Randarkman posted:What do you mean here? North African pirates greatly threatened the Mediterranean coast from the 8th-11th century and then again from the 14th century down to the early 19th century. With the peak in that last period being in the 16th century (though the 8th-11th century were probably the most devastating as the Christian Mediterranean nations were unable to organize themselves at all to defend their coasts and many coastal regions were pretty much abandoned and Muslim pirate lords set up shop in the Alps, Italy, Sicily, Crete and the Balearic islands). And slaves did row galleys, just not war galleys as that was something that required alot of skill and dedication, forced labor at a galley oar was also a rather common punishment for crimes in Mediterranean nations. Most people captured as slaves were sold at the slave market in Tunis, where they found themselves all over the Islamic world, though alot of skilled sailors who were enslaved did end up becoming Corsair captains themselves (there were also a large number of Turks and Albanians among the corsair captains) He's talking about Magna Mundi, an mod for EU3 that ended in a swarm of drama. Barbary Corsairs were a big mechanic there, but the effect of them, and pirates in general, was gigantic, well past the point of fun or plausibility.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Randarkman posted:I know you're being ironic here, but I just want to say that this argument, even if it were true, is really dumb since (among other things like two wrongs not making a right) it wasn't at all the same Africans who were brought as slaves to America who did the slaving in the Mediterranean. There's also the fact that MENA slavery of Europeans was on a smaller scale and inefficient at being as inhumane as slavery in the South and the Caribbean. Thanks to the sugar and cotton plantations and related industries requiring a much greater labour input. The result was a system of slave administration that was far more brutal and efficient, dehumanizing but productive. A case of Western thinking and innovation outpacing the rest of the world's, with some amount of regrettable human cost.
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Feb 13, 2016 02:15
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Merdifex posted:There's also the fact that MENA slavery of Europeans was on a smaller scale and inefficient at being as inhumane as slavery in the South and the Caribbean. Thanks to the sugar and cotton plantations and related industries requiring a much greater labour input. The result was a system of slave administration that was far more brutal and efficient, dehumanizing but productive. A case of Western thinking and innovation outpacing the rest of the world's, with some amount of regrettable human cost. It's not even that new. Romans had two types of slavery, too. One type was essentially the domestic slave, which is how we tend to conceptualize pre-plantation slavery: essentially a servant who can't leave you. The other type was "work them until they die" slavery and that happened in the gold mines of Hispania.
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Feb 13, 2016 02:50
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Dibujante posted:The other type was "work them until they die" slavery and that happened in the gold mines of Hispania. The latifundia were farms using slave labour across the empire, it wasn't just in Spain
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Feb 13, 2016 03:40
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Merdifex posted:There's also the fact that MENA slavery of Europeans was on a smaller scale and inefficient at being as inhumane as slavery in the South and the Caribbean. Thanks to the sugar and cotton plantations and related industries requiring a much greater labour input. The result was a system of slave administration that was far more brutal and efficient, dehumanizing but productive. A case of Western thinking and innovation outpacing the rest of the world's, with some amount of regrettable human cost.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:05
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Magical Zero posted:The Arabs made extensive use of plantation slavery long before the Europeans, though. There were even large scale Roman-style slave uprisings in Mesopotamia, the Zanj rebellion being the most famous example. The African slaves were joined by army defectors, Beduins and various oppressed peoples and eventually the rebellion was estimated to include up towards 500.000 people. For comparison, at the height of the third servile war some 100.000+ fought with Spartacus against Rome. I know of the Zanj rebellion, it was also successful enough that large scale slave-labour based projects like this never really happened again in the Islamic Middle East. It wasn't also plantation slavery, it was a project to desalinate some areas around Baghdad. But the point I was making was that Western tech was much better with slavery than anywhere else. So in game terms, if I am with Western tech group I should have much higher productivity from slavery than any other tech group, and be able to research better slavery tactics. In the timeline of Victoria, the South should get a bonus to slave plantation productivity to reflect the excellent work they did in squeezing all that more work out of their slaves in the cotton plantations, or it should at least be a technology available to certain nations with slavery. Roman slavery was not as great in its productivity, slaves could buy their freedom, they weren't coerced as much as slaves in the Caribbean and the South were, and it wasn't racialized, leading to a system that was inferior to later developments in slavery.
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Feb 13, 2016 05:27
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Merdifex posted:Roman slavery was not as great in its productivity, slaves could buy their freedom, they weren't coerced as much as slaves in the Caribbean and the South were, and it wasn't racialized, leading to a system that was inferior to later developments in slavery. To be fair Roman slavery wasn't exactly a state planned affair. It was viewed more as a social thing to introduce your dumb barbarian mind to superior Roman values and give you the contacts you would need to survive in the Roman world. Manumission rates as far as we can gauge was very very high; most often occuring on death of the male owner. Given that cities were breeding grounds for disease this happened often. The mines on the other hand were all together a different animal in viewpoint.
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Feb 13, 2016 05:36
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Enjoy posted:The latifundia were farms using slave labour across the empire, it wasn't just in Spain The latifundia were one thing, but the intensive mining work, concentrated most notably in Spain, was its own special kind of horrific.
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Feb 13, 2016 07:57
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Rumda posted:Na that would be just your posting I will admit that it didn't turn into the horrible political derail I feared and. That's what the internet does to you.
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Feb 13, 2016 11:51
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Merdifex posted:There's also the fact that MENA slavery of Europeans was on a smaller scale and inefficient at being as inhumane as slavery in the South and the Caribbean. Thanks to the sugar and cotton plantations and related industries requiring a much greater labour input. The result was a system of slave administration that was far more brutal and efficient, dehumanizing but productive. A case of Western thinking and innovation outpacing the rest of the world's, with some amount of regrettable human cost. I have never seen any source describe slavery in the Arab world as being particularly humane or small-scale. For example, the early 18th-century Moroccan ruler Moulay Ismail ibn Sharif used tens of thousands of slaves for massive infrastructure projects throughout his reign. Many of them died. He was also known for having servants and slaves beheaded at the slightest perceived offense. Incidentally, most of the slaves in the Arab world were Sub-Saharan African rather than European, we just don't have as many reliable sources to estimate the numbers in the former case. And while European slavery was mostly over by the early 19th century, especially after the Bombardment of Algiers in 1816, North African enslavement of black people lasted well into the 20th century and is even today occurring in countries such as Mauritania. One thing that you could perhaps say in their favor is that if you were lucky enough to survive and be freed after converting to Islam, there was surprisingly little standing in the way of social mobility. As Randarkman said, many of the more famous 16th and 17th-century corsairs were former European captives themselves. Maghreb societies at the time might have been brutal and chaotic, but at the same time this engendered a sort of semi-egalitarian meritocracy. Meanwhile, if you were a freedman in one of the strongly hierarchized New World societies and particularly (what was to become) the United States, you often continued to be treated like poo poo and your path to social advancement was mostly blocked.
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Feb 13, 2016 14:35
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Polikarpov posted:That is a good flag. Israel's fascist flag in Vicky 2 is based off it.
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Feb 13, 2016 14:49
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Phlegmish posted:Meanwhile, if you were a freedman in one of the strongly hierarchized New World societies and particularly (what was to become) the United States, you often continued to be treated like poo poo and your path to social advancement was mostly blocked. Depends which Western nation. France didn't particular mind all the freedmen walking around on Haiti until ironically; the Revolution. It's quite interesting that the more rights and enfranchisement the middle class got from it's government the more they turned around and used it to create separation between them and "outsiders"
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Feb 13, 2016 17:26
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YouTuber posted:Depends which Western nation. France didn't particular mind all the freedmen walking around on Haiti until ironically; the Revolution. It's quite interesting that the more rights and enfranchisement the middle class got from it's government the more they turned around and used it to create separation between them and "outsiders" Sarmhan fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 18:06
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So, how's the EU4 converter for CK2 working with conclave? So far all I'm seeing is a burning desire to split every country up into a billion vassals because it can't check against crown authority any more. Is that intended? Also, Stellaris is wedged between May releases now, so, something to speculate about. Westminster System fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 18:08
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Westminster System posted:Stellaris is wedged between May releases now What does this mean?
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Feb 13, 2016 18:26
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If you look through Steam upcoming releases - Stellaris used to be in mid February, now its in mid/late May in respect to "release dates" around it. It still only says Coming Soon and can be moved, obviously, its just baseless speculation, the greatest fun there is.
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Feb 13, 2016 18:32
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 not set in stone but it sounds pretty likely to me. I don't know why everyone here seems to think it won't be out until the end of the year.
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Feb 13, 2016 18:37
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Because we live in a cruel world.
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Feb 13, 2016 18:51
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Brad Wardell of Stardock claims:quote:Next year all the 4X’s are going to come out. What I write below is not under some NDA. I know it because it’s my job to know it. He might not have broken any NDAs, but given that's potentially the first anyone heard about Civ 6, he may have burned some bridges.
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Feb 13, 2016 18:52
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http://career.paradoxplaza.com/jobs/7990-community-developerquote:The Community Developer is responsible for the daytoday contact with Paradox fans across all of our brands. Making use of social media, online message boards and other communication channels, you are an active presence on all customer facing communication channels. Examples include Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Steam Community Hubs etc. Leaving out SA from the hot trendy places to be? Pre-Application cancelled 
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Feb 13, 2016 18:55
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Fintilgin posted:Brad Wardell of Stardock claims: Brad Wardell burning bridges? I am shocked.
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Feb 13, 2016 19:05
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I would be a believer in Stellaris coming out sooner than later if they hadn't kept postponing the dev diaries of cornerstone systems because they needed some time in the oven before a presentation.
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Feb 13, 2016 19:06
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How the gently caress does Wardell still have bridges to burn?
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Feb 13, 2016 19:07
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When was the last time here anyone has Stardock installed on their computer? Around the same time the first Gal Civ game came out and you had no choice? I doubt anyone cares what he has to say outside some circles of niche gamers. If publishers then cared that he was running his mouth they wouldn't do business with him but somehow he's managed to hold on this long so he's probably useful for something.
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Feb 13, 2016 19:17
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Pimpmust posted:http://career.paradoxplaza.com/jobs/7990-community-developer
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Feb 13, 2016 19:17
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sarmhan posted:What? This is completely wrong. Free blacks were given extra rights by the revolutionary government in 1791, not the other way around. The codified racial discrimination you're talking about became policy in 1763, under King Louis XVI. It's been a long time since I read about the Haitian Revolution but my memory was that the Code Noir was in effect for a long time. Then the Little Whites got some laws encoded that inhibited rights for freed blacks just shy of the Revolution only for the Revolutionary government to stamp it's foot down and declare that the Declaration of the Rights of Man superseded any prior legislation and any questioning of it was counter-revolutionary insurrection. All the while a 4 way civil war was going on in Haiti. I'll have to go back and read up on it again.
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Feb 13, 2016 19:22
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YouTuber posted:It's been a long time since I read about the Haitian Revolution but my memory was that the Code Noir was in effect for a long time. Then the Little Whites got some laws encoded that inhibited rights for freed blacks just shy of the Revolution only for the Revolutionary government to stamp it's foot down and declare that the Declaration of the Rights of Man superseded any prior legislation and any questioning of it was counter-revolutionary insurrection. All the while a 4 way civil war was going on in Haiti. I'll have to go back and read up on it again. Good place to get back into it http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/2015/12/401-saint-domingue.html
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Feb 13, 2016 19:38
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Bold Robot posted:What does this mean? It may be released. 
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Feb 13, 2016 23:24
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Enjoy posted:The latifundia were farms using slave labour across the empire, it wasn't just in Spain My understanding was that Roman agricultural slavery was merely brutal - long days of hard work, but survivable. Roman records are actually pretty spotty on the topic of slavery! But from what I've gathered, latifundia slaves often even had families. Opposed to this, Roman mine slavery was indisputably a death sentence, and soon, for anyone forced to do it. Life expectancy was measured in months. Plantation slavery in most of the New World is more similar to the latter than the former. While life expectancies were longer than for Roman mine slaves, they were still usually much less than a decade. I don't have a good number handy but something like 80%+ of new world slaves were worked to death, murdered, or died in accidents.
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Feb 14, 2016 08:21
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Dibujante posted:My understanding was that Roman agricultural slavery was merely brutal - long days of hard work, but survivable. Roman records are actually pretty spotty on the topic of slavery! But from what I've gathered, latifundia slaves often even had families. Yeah, Roman agricultural slavery wasn't really all that different from normal agricultural work, discounting harsh measures being applied to slaves who got uppity and slaves who did not report on disobedient behavior. Slaves performed all kinds of work in Ancient Rome, from craftsmanship to shopkeeping to agricultural labor, and often enough alongside free wage laborers doing the exact same job. In agriculture what became the "system" so to speak was that a rich landowner who owned a farm would put it under the care of a slave overseer and his family, who was also often provided with additional slaves to help out on the farm. And due to the fact that the amount and intensity of labor in agriculture varies greatly from season to season this slave overseer would also often be provided with the means to hire wage laborers to bring up the numbers during sowing and harvesting season, since these were not slaves they could simply be let go after they had done the work necessary. In broad strokes Islamic slavery tended to be very similar to ancient Mediterranean slavery, though there weren't quite so many enslaved agricultural workers as was the case with Ancient Rome, household slaves doing servant work or being concubines were much more common. You also of course had the miltiary slaves, but those were very different in that they were always owned directly by the ruler, and had very high status (higher than most free born subjects, at least that was the case with the Turkish Mamluks in the Middle East and India who were very conscious of their superiority) and often even received payment in forms of tax farming rights that they used to equip themselves and their retainers.
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Feb 14, 2016 08:57
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I just noticed that there is a EUIV Sabaton sound pack available. I hope that they become the official soundtrack for HoI4.
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Feb 14, 2016 11:39
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Dibujante posted:My understanding was that Roman agricultural slavery was merely brutal - long days of hard work, but survivable. Roman records are actually pretty spotty on the topic of slavery! But from what I've gathered, latifundia slaves often even had families. What's the story on the mine slavery?
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Feb 14, 2016 16:13
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Bold Robot posted:What's the story on the mine slavery? "Get in the hole."
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Feb 14, 2016 16:16
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Bold Robot posted:What's the story on the mine slavery? I believe it involved mercury to extract gold? Maybe lead poisoning too. That and being naked in some wet/cold hole with the usual mining risks of collapse, lack of oxygen and so on doesn't lead to particularly long life-expectancy.
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Feb 14, 2016 16:24
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:I don't give a rats rear end I just wanna go Hayreddin Barbarossa on the mediterranean. I read a biography of him recently and the Barbary pirates are badass They were. They basically terrorized the major European trade and military powers for half a century until the Battle of Lepanto.
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Feb 14, 2016 16:47
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Pimpmust posted:I believe it involved mercury to extract gold? Maybe lead poisoning too. Compare also the silver mines of Potosi, which, to my understanding, had a similarly horrifying death toll.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:07
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Bold Robot posted:What's the story on the mine slavery? Mines are just bad news. First, you have your run of the mill mine dangers - collapses, for example. Or breathing the dust. However, digging deeply into the ground has some other risks, too. You can unearth pockets of noxious gas that will kill you before you realize you're not breathing oxygen anymore. On top of that, Roman gold mines used hydraulics in order to expedite gold mining. These hydraulics could easily crush or down. Silver mining exposes the miner to all of those risks, and more. This is where the Spanish innovate, by the way - the silver mines of the Spanish colonies were actually worse than those of Roman Hispania. This is because of the Patio Process, which uses mercury to extract silver from ore. This increased Spanish silver yields enormously. It also meant that not only were mine workers exposed to mercury, but they had to mine that stuff, as well. According to contemporary accounts, 3 months was around the longest you'd last before you got nerve damage, went crazy, and died.
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Feb 14, 2016 23:40
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