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I like The Punisher because he says "no bad guys" and bad guys can't come into that town
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Feb 15, 2016 23:53
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HIJK posted:Can you rephrase this with less jargon plz. Thank you. Killing is wrong but someone like Batman morally lording themselves over someone like Punisher is probably being hypocritical. This sort of thing always reminds me of that godawful Superman monologue from "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" where he comes off as such a smug, author self-insert prick that suddenly I'm rooting for the guy who kills people.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:56
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Snak posted:I like The Punisher because I dislike the "loophole" of "non-lethal violence" which "good guy" vigilantes get to use to be total badasses without being bad people. Somehow. If you want to cheer when good guys brutalize bad guys because they deserve it, but you are only okay with it because genre magic allows an easily crossable line to crossable only by choice, that's hosed up. It's the basis of our PG-13 mentality, where it is not violence which is objectionable, but the consequences of violence which make people uncomfortable. It is okay to show children that violence is a solution, but you should't show them what violence looks like show it as being psychologically traumatic, because that sort of thing is for adults. Doesn't that miss the whole point of the traditional superhero concept? The police have a job of bringing in criminal suspects without violence unless as a last resort. Superheroes emerge as a response to criminals too violent for the police to properly handle. People cheer batman because he brutalizes bad guys too dangerous for the police to fight without causing excessive loss of life. Despite the fact that most superheroes have life-taking power, for a while it was codified that they wouldn't ever do it, and most give baddies a chance to surrender peacefully. For most superheroes, violence is a means of subduing violent bad guys, not as a punishment for their crimes. Their punishment is supposed to come in the form of jails/asylums/rehabilitation. For the Punisher, violence is the punishment for the crime. You can argue that it's too naive to display criminals as violent thugs bereft of context or backstory, meting out violence and deserving to get beaten up by the good vigilante. But you can't argue that the beating up is objectionable given the circumstances displayed in the work of fiction. The use of violence to subdue violence criminals is not objectionable as long as it's as restrained as possible.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:57
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Hakkesshu posted:Killing is wrong but someone like Batman morally lording themselves over someone like Punisher is probably being hypocritical. I don't think that has happened.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:58
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Pander posted:The use of violence to subdue violence criminals is not objectionable as long as it's as restrained as possible. Yeah but we're talking about superheroes where nothing is ever restrained. Look at that loving fight in the new BvS trailer and tell me Batman isn't punishing those guys. Aphrodite posted:I don't think that has happened. Not literally that specific example, but comic writers pull that poo poo as obvious subtext all the loving time, such as the aforementioned Superman comic.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:00
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Lots of DC characters think Batman goes too far.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:01
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Aphrodite posted:I don't think that has happened. Actually there was a crossover with the two once.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:02
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Hakkesshu posted:Killing is wrong but someone like Batman morally lording themselves over someone like Punisher is probably being hypocritical. Ohhh, okay. Thanks! Yeah, that is pretty hypocritical and it's annoying the comic book industry has drawn this fake moral line, as if Matt pushing a guy off a building and putting him in a coma is so much better than just cutting his head off. But I guess they felt like they had to justify it somehow. There was probably a moral panic in the 60s or 80s that lead us down this path where killing is wrong but paralyzing people is a-ok!!!! To be fair, they did take a look at that in season 1 so season 2 seems to be Frank rubbing Matt's nose in it and going "naw."
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Feb 16, 2016 00:07
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Pander posted:Doesn't that miss the whole point of the traditional superhero concept? The idea that the problem the police have is that they can't beat up criminals well enough is a hilariously fascist concept. Superheroes, like science fiction, or magical realism, are neat narrative concepts to tell stories with. But when you want the format of your story to be "the hero uses violence, but he doesn't choose to kill" you've done a really strange thing by separating violence from a consequence of violence. Through sheer magic, blunt force trauma is no longer fatal in the hands of good guys. This magical change to the nature of reality let's us have our cake and eat it to: The good guys still get to use violence to solve their problems, but they are never lowered to the level of the bad guy, who kills. That is not how violence works.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:15
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Basically we need more movies like The Raid where the violence is awesome but you also see it kill people horribly.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:17
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Everyone's watching Punisher: War Zone to prepare, right?
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Feb 16, 2016 00:19
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Snak posted:The idea that the problem the police have is that they can't beat up criminals well enough is a hilariously fascist concept. Superheroes, like science fiction, or magical realism, are neat narrative concepts to tell stories with. But when you want the format of your story to be "the hero uses violence, but he doesn't choose to kill" you've done a really strange thing by separating violence from a consequence of violence. Through sheer magic, blunt force trauma is no longer fatal in the hands of good guys. This magical change to the nature of reality let's us have our cake and eat it to: The good guys still get to use violence to solve their problems, but they are never lowered to the level of the bad guy, who kills. That is not how violence works. Superheroes are supposed to use violence as a tool of last resort to ensure bad guys don't hurt or kill. It's the same edict the police are supposed to be under. What you seem to hear: Superheroes should be despised for getting to use violence, but are instead cheered because they don't kill people. Are you SMG with a different account name or something? I just want to know so I can just step away knowing you're trolling or a complete idiot. Cause you're chasing after an argument I wasn't making.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:22
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Snak posted:The idea that the problem the police have is that they can't beat up criminals well enough is a hilariously fascist concept. Superheroes, like science fiction, or magical realism, are neat narrative concepts to tell stories with. But when you want the format of your story to be "the hero uses violence, but he doesn't choose to kill" you've done a really strange thing by separating violence from a consequence of violence. Through sheer magic, blunt force trauma is no longer fatal in the hands of good guys. This magical change to the nature of reality let's us have our cake and eat it to: The good guys still get to use violence to solve their problems, but they are never lowered to the level of the bad guy, who kills. That is not how violence works. The only bit of superhero fiction I recall (Though there's probably a dozen others I'm forgetting) that really made a big deal about analyzing this kind of morality are the first 2 seasons of Arrow. Where you had Ollie straight up murdering every lesser mook in his way and making named villains suffer in decrepit prisons with broken bodies and shattered spirits. Then people started getting caught in the crossfire and he tried a blanket No-Kill Policy only to realize that sometimes it is impossible to stop someone from being an active threat without killing them but sometimes it is also very possible to stop a criminal without killing them and you should always look for the second option when applicable. The later seasons would be dumber and all over the place with it, but those first 2 seasons left an impression on me I don't think I'll forget. DarklyDreaming fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 00:23
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There's nothing wrong about enjoying something in media that would be a horror in real life. Punisher is one of those things. If the Punisher was real it would be a horrible thing. But he's pretty cool in a make believe universe setting. I wonder how many people that argue against Punisher on some ridiculous moral grounds have no problem watching other movies that are way worse and play video games that make the Punisher look tame. I have a theory that people dump on Punisher for reasons other than actual moral reasons. Mostly because they have a problem with a certain kind of person that also likes Punisher.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:23
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It's okay to not like certain media because of obnoxious fans and it's also okay not to like certain media in general but making moral judgements about others for liking stuff is stupid, in other words.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:27
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X-O posted:There's nothing wrong about enjoying something in media that would be a horror in real life. Punisher is one of those things. If the Punisher was real it would be a horrible thing. But he's pretty cool in a make believe universe setting. I wonder how many people that argue against Punisher on some ridiculous moral grounds have no problem watching other movies that are way worse and play video games that make the Punisher look tame. I have a theory that people dump on Punisher for reasons other than actual moral reasons. Mostly because they have a problem with a certain kind of person that also likes Punisher. Exactly, there's no reason not to enjoy the Punisher as a work of fiction. Simplistic people with manichean views of crime and punishment who try to apply Punisher-like thinking to reality? That's scary as poo poo, especially given how close some people are to codifying it. Remember, Justice Scalia (PBUH) once used Jack Bauer as an actual argument advancing the use of torture, with the idea that bad guys don't have constitutional rights since information extraction is not a form of punishment and therefore doesn't fall under the 8th Amendment (just as the founding fathers intended!).
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Feb 16, 2016 00:29
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HIJK posted:Basically we need more movies like The Raid where the violence is awesome but you also see it kill people horribly. I mean basically yeah. I think pretending that there's such a thing as being "friendly-violent" is bad. "Harmless violence" as entertainment is bad. If you want to show violence, show violence. If you want to watch violence, watch violence. If you want to watch fictional violence as entertainment, fine. If you want to tell a story about how killing is wrong, I think it's loving stupid to make your characters MO to hit people in the head with a metal stick and then punch them in the head over and over again on the pavement. But have all of this be okay because it doesn't cross the line of choosing to kill. It puts Matt in a really silly place, where he's made peace with the fact that he is a man of violence who hits people because he's angry, AND that he's "not a killer". Now, I get how comic book characters work, so it's not like I'm hate-watching Daredevil because it's not tactically realistic enough, or whatever. I just like that Punisher is basically a character that reflects what a vigilante would have to be like if they didn't have the magic safety that prevented them from accidentally killing people or from being killed. odiv posted:Everyone's watching Punisher: War Zone to prepare, right? I hope so, because that movie loving owns. edit: Pander posted:My argument: I'm not chasing any argument. Snak fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 00:29
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Pander posted:Doesn't that miss the whole point of the traditional superhero concept? B) Netflix Daredevil gets into the superhero game precisely to punish wrongdoers. He beats the living dogshit out of a child molester/abuser (someone the police would be plenty capable of handling) and talks about how much he enjoyed it, and he has continued to enjoy beating the poo poo out of other criminals since then. Punisher is a really fitting foil for that. Even accepting what you say about traditional superheroes' attitudes towards crime, this Daredevil is not about that attitude. HIJK posted:There was probably a moral panic in the 60s or 80s that lead us down this path where killing is wrong but paralyzing people is a-ok!!!! AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 00:35
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40 new posts! There must be some big casting news! ....Nope, we're arguing about the Punisher again.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:39
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X-O posted:There's nothing wrong about enjoying something in media that would be a horror in real life. Punisher is one of those things. If the Punisher was real it would be a horrible thing. But he's pretty cool in a make believe universe setting. I wonder how many people that argue against Punisher on some ridiculous moral grounds have no problem watching other movies that are way worse and play video games that make the Punisher look tame. I have a theory that people dump on Punisher for reasons other than actual moral reasons. Mostly because they have a problem with a certain kind of person that also likes Punisher. He's real, he's just not one person. Medullah posted:40 new posts! There must be some big casting news! There was a trailer, dummy. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 00:47
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X-O posted:There's nothing wrong about enjoying something in media that would be a horror in real life. Punisher is one of those things. If the Punisher was real it would be a horrible thing. But he's pretty cool in a make believe universe setting. I wonder how many people that argue against Punisher on some ridiculous moral grounds have no problem watching other movies that are way worse and play video games that make the Punisher look tame. I have a theory that people dump on Punisher for reasons other than actual moral reasons. Mostly because they have a problem with a certain kind of person that also likes Punisher. If you watch a fictional character kill other fictional characters, then talk about it on the internet you are a SOCIOPATH. Good thing you post here, and can be properly diagnosed.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:51
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See, the issue with the Punisher is that all the things people are saying about why he works and why he exists are a minority of Punisher stories. He's mostly "hey wouldn't it be loving awesome if the guy just killed everyone?" I don't expect Daredevil to do that of course, but it's perfectly understandable that people don't like that character.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:55
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Aphrodite posted:See, the issue with the Punisher is that all the things people are saying about why he works and why he exists are a minority of Punisher stories. He's mostly "hey wouldn't it be loving awesome if the guy just killed everyone?" You can also say this about John McClane but people only get exercised about the Punisher because he has merchandising.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:58
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HIJK posted:You can also say this about John McClane but people only get exercised about the Punisher because he has merchandising. There's only 2 and a half Die Hard movies, you be quiet.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:58
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Aphrodite posted:See, the issue with the Punisher is that all the things people are saying about why he works and why he exists are a minority of Punisher stories. He's mostly "hey wouldn't it be loving awesome if the guy just killed everyone?" I don't know, Ennis's run is kind of the iconic take on the character and that involves Frank admitting to himself that he'd be doing this even if his family were never murdered.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:00
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HIJK posted:You can also say this about John McClane but people only get exercised about the Punisher because he has merchandising. Ironically enough the vast vast majority of the merchandising is third party unauthorized stuff. Oddly neither Marvel and now Disney ever trademarked the Punisher skull logo.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:02
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After Bernthal's vile comments praising the Punisher as a role model to law enforcement and the military, this trailer makes me cautiously optimistic. But we'll see.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:06
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gfanikf posted:Ironically enough the vast vast majority of the merchandising is third party unauthorized stuff. Oddly neither Marvel and now Disney ever trademarked the Punisher skull logo. ....this is the weirdest thing I've read all thread. They'd make a lot of money doing that. I guess they thought that a skull of all things would be difficult to enforce?
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Feb 16, 2016 02:14
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HIJK posted:....this is the weirdest thing I've read all thread. They'd make a lot of money doing that. Yeah it's probably that. I mean they could make the case for a specific drawing of a skull shape on a black t-shirt but since that usually changes with the artist it would still be hard to enforce.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:19
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I don't like the Punisher but I'm open to the idea that it's because my only exposure to him is that one awful movie that I saw when I was a teenager, so I hope that this season will be cool.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:25
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odiv posted:Everyone's watching Punisher: War Zone to prepare, right? Make mine Lundgren, true believers. Yes I like to meditate in the sewers. Seriously though I enjoy that movie. I actually dig the Jane movie too, even though it's just a light low-budget version of Welcome Back Frank. This trailer is terrific, looks like they're doing Punisher justice and giving us a lot of that pulpy early 80s Miller grooviness. Throwing Elektra into the mix as well, this season is loaded! Death Wish 3 by the way, that's the best one. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 03:24
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odiv posted:Everyone's watching Punisher: War Zone to prepare, right? This is my fav Punisher. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpK0wsnitc #TEAMFRANK!@
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Feb 16, 2016 03:24
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HIJK posted:....this is the weirdest thing I've read all thread. They'd make a lot of money doing that. DarklyDreaming posted:Yeah it's probably that. I mean they could make the case for a specific drawing of a skull shape on a black t-shirt but since that usually changes with the artist it would still be hard to enforce. Heavy Metal posted:Make mine Lundgren, true believers. Yes I like to meditate in the sewers. Seriously though I enjoy that movie. It helps that it was directed by the Dean of 1980s Action Movie editing Mark Goldblatt. Seriously go look up all the amazing stuff he did.
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Feb 16, 2016 04:15
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Soothing Vapors posted:gently caress Punisher. He's a disgrace to heroes, police, and military men. True. His kills aren't mostly minorities at all.
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Feb 16, 2016 04:57
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jscolon2.0 posted:True. His kills aren't mostly minorities at all. 
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Feb 16, 2016 05:43
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jscolon2.0 posted:True. His kills aren't mostly minorities at all. hahahaha well this thread just peaked
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Feb 16, 2016 05:48
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jscolon2.0 posted:True. His kills aren't mostly minorities at all. Class. Peak posting.
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Feb 16, 2016 05:48
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Welp we can close the thread now, this bullshit isn't worth it anymore
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Feb 16, 2016 06:39
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As long as the Punisher is treated as a villain the entire series, it should be fantastic.
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Feb 16, 2016 09:11
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jscolon2.0 posted:True. His kills aren't mostly minorities at all. Wrap it up folks, we're done here.
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Feb 16, 2016 10:04
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