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The Saurus posted:Yeah I guess 90% of the population should cater and pander to 10% of the population after all. Especially when a not-insignificant part of that 10% are criminals who entered the country illegally to undercut the wages and conditions of Americans. entering without inspection isn't a crime doofus
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Mar 5, 2016 23:28
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Anyway this is the thread for Marxistly posting Forbes articles about how China is great and awesome, not for arguing about illegals. It's undeniable that socialism or even a welfare state requires a population to have a single unified identity first, I think America can do that through the english language and shared values of freedom and liberty 
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Mar 5, 2016 23:33
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The Saurus posted:The number of jobs requiring Spanish speakers are far higher than the proportion of Spanish-only speakers. Do you have any evidence to back this up or is this just the latest update on the strange reality that exists inside your mind
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Mar 5, 2016 23:33
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jobs in a country will favour people with skills relevant to the particular conditions of that country, yes like it sucks that you're having trouble finding a job dude, and i genuinely hope you find something that works for you, but on the level of socialist politics you have no justification for declaring a big chunk of the working class illegitimate because they're personally inconvenient for your particular job-hunting situation the racial division hobbling working class solidarity is coming from inside the house
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Mar 5, 2016 23:34
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The Saurus posted:Anyway this is the thread for Marxistly posting Forbes articles about how China is great and awesome, not for arguing about illegals. Tell that to Nemtsov.
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Mar 5, 2016 23:35
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Peel posted:like it sucks that you're having trouble finding a job dude, and i genuinely hope you find something that works for you, but on the level of socialist politics you have no justification for declaring a big chunk of the working class illegitimate because they're personally inconvenient for your particular job-hunting situation Actually I got a job since I made that post  Now I'm mainly just mad about Illegals colluding with the elite to undercut wages and conditions for the working man. e: Also about all of the products we sell being manufactured in Mexico instead of America like they used to be because of NAFTA The Saurus fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 5, 2016 |
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Mar 5, 2016 23:51
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i watched the houston occupy GA tear itself up one night over 'illegals' chat, true story
Mofabio fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 02:05
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lol:The Saurus posted:Wow Sanders actually had a very good day, one landslid and a solid win. The Saurus posted:You'd be dumb too if you were descended from ex-slaves and one of poorest, most oppressed groups in one of the shittiest parts of the country. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 07:11
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GunnerJ posted:lol: Lol
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Mar 6, 2016 09:03
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GunnerJ posted:lol: Haha holy poo poo The Saurus posted:It would actually have been racist if I hadn't qualified it with the "dumb"
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Mar 6, 2016 09:28
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lmao
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Mar 6, 2016 13:02
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Hi, I'm The Saurus. I believe my real enemy is a superexploited segment of the working class divided from me by cultural distinction, and I regularly talk about them and other divided superexploited groups in terms of garbage, criminality, mass stupidity and conspiracies with 'elites' against the American working man. I'm voting for a charismatic political outsider whose defining characteristics are incoherent but largely right-wing policy positions, huge rallies, and being endorsed by white nationalists. I'm a left-winger, and the real socialist.
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Mar 6, 2016 13:16
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It takes a special kind of stupidity to think immigrants are colluding with the elite. Because clearly when they enter the country, they get a direct phone line to Goldmann Sachs, otherwise known as the Sachsophone. Like in that anecdote you had of your boss threatening to replace that catering job, maybe it was boss being the bad guy? Maybe? Did you think of that? But enough about Saurus, my related question for other socialist minds itt is preventing people going for blowhards like Trump, and how to peel people away. What are the best strategies for that?
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Mar 6, 2016 14:14
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rudatron posted:But enough about Saurus, like, OK in general, but i just wanna point out that in 2 hours ppl are going to have to check his rap sheet for his most recent probation reason
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Mar 6, 2016 16:27
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rudatron posted:It takes a special kind of stupidity to think immigrants are colluding with the elite. Because clearly when they enter the country, they get a direct phone line to Goldmann Sachs, otherwise known as the Sachsophone. He obviously is the bad guy. Illegal immigrants still annoy me because of my personal experiences, but I want the bosses and ruling class to get whats coming to them and they're certainly the originators of all the shittiness. Literally everyone here agrees about that though, so what's the point of discussing it on here? It'd be like me starting a discussion about my support for single-payer healthcare, a $15 minimum wage, ending prison and voting restrictions for nonviolent offenders and halting disastrous American interventions in other nations. Everyone here agrees with that stuff - There's nothing to talk about. quote:But enough about Saurus, my related question for other socialist minds itt is preventing people going for blowhards like Trump, and how to peel people away. What are the best strategies for that? Apparently it's to deride them, insult them, call them bigoted and then smugly dismiss their concerns. Or Marxistly add them to your ignore list.
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Mar 6, 2016 17:43
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The Saurus posted:Apparently it's to deride them, insult them, call them bigoted and then smugly dismiss their concerns. Or Marxistly add them to your ignore list. keep whining about my forums behavior as if anyone actually gives a poo poo. life's too short to read/respond to bad posts it's also pretty great that one guy focused on one article out of the i think five different links i posted and he obviously didn't read and now other dorks itt are doing the same thing
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Mar 6, 2016 18:29
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The Saurus posted:He obviously is the bad guy. Illegal immigrants still annoy me because of my personal experiences, but I want the bosses and ruling class to get whats coming to them and they're certainly the originators of all the shittiness. Literally everyone here agrees about that though, so what's the point of discussing it on here? Go back to Britain,see it's not racist because I have white friends
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Mar 6, 2016 18:31
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goatse.cx posted:The idea that China today could still be called socialist is impossible for me to accept. Everything is fully marketized despite the presence of large SOEs (which are being privatized piecemeal btw), very meager social provisions, general ideological inflection toward nationalism from leftism, despite the constant name-dropping of Marxist-Leninism without discussing its meaning and implications and the opening of 'schools of marxism' where students are taught that sweat shops are socialist as hell. It is true that state sector still plays a heavy role in the economy, but you're going to have to explain to me how that necessarily cognates with 'socialist'. go back and read the thing i posted. heck, i'll post it again. quote:A discussion paper with the title Explaining the Persistence of State Ownership in China7 shows that in the past 10 years the number of SOEs has declined dramatically from 84 397 to 29 229, but the share of the SOEs in the industrial sector has hovered steadily around 33-34 percent, rising slightly in 2003 and 2004 to 35.5 and 37.0 percent respectively. Considering that industrial production as a whole has increased a lot during period, this actually represents a big expansion of the SOEs. it's not just the state "playing a role" in some aspects of the economy, it's a single-party worker's state (i have sources on the makeup of the ccp if you want, and without checking it's something like 30 percent from the peasantry, 20 percent industrial laborers, 20 percent students and the rest a mix of military officials and assorted "intelligentsia") with direct control of the commanding heights of the economy and what is essentially veto power on the actions of the private sector areas that do exist, and a monopoly on investment. basing a diagnosis of a state as socialist or capitalist based on such crude metrics as "do markets exist" or "are there rich people" isn't marxist analysis. as i said earlier, some of china's reforms ARE capitalist in character, but if your litmus test for socialism is "fully planned economy or nothing," that also isn't a particularly materialist outlook. actually existing socialist states will do what it takes to survive, and this doesn't mean they abandon socialism the instant they do so. compare the russian federation, a gangster oligarch government where public assets were privatized, with china. the two economies could not be more dissimilar.
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Mar 6, 2016 18:54
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China has incredibly levels of pollution that cause severe damage to its populace and they force people to pay for their own healthcare. They evict tenants and destroy houses with no compensation that have been lived in for generations in order to build hotels for western businessmen and native oligarchs. If China is legitimately socialist, then socialism loving sucks. High levels of state ownership don't equal socialism if the working class is not in control of the state.
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Mar 6, 2016 19:20
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If you give The Saurus the benefit of the doubt, you can assume the some of the insensitive stuff he says is because race relations are so different in Britain. Like he's used to an environment where race isn't as big a deal and doesn't understand the power of saying "friend of the family" even as a joke.
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Mar 6, 2016 19:24
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The Saurus posted:China has incredibly levels of pollution that cause severe damage to its populace and they force people to pay for their own healthcare. They evict tenants and destroy houses with no compensation that have been lived in for generations in order to build hotels for western businessmen and native oligarchs. hey at least they're ~homogeneous~ right? er, does that still count if they're inscrutable orientals? not sure how this works
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Mar 6, 2016 19:25
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Homework Explainer posted:it's not just the state "playing a role" in some aspects of the economy, it's a single-party worker's state (i have sources on the makeup of the ccp if you want, and without checking it's something like 30 percent from the peasantry, 20 percent industrial laborers, 20 percent students and the rest a mix of military officials and assorted "intelligentsia") http://www.china.org.cn/china/18th_cpc_congress/2012-08/15/content_26240310.htm 
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Mar 6, 2016 19:52
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Jewel Repetition posted:If you give The Saurus the benefit of the doubt, you can assume the some of the insensitive stuff he says is because race relations are so different in Britain. Like he's used to an environment where race isn't as big a deal and doesn't understand the power of saying "friend of the family" even as a joke. Thanks buddy! But yeah seriously there's a big difference between shitposting on an internet forum for attention and treating anyone irl differently or lesser because of their race. I am shocked all the time by the actual racism of Americans who straight-up refuse to go into certain towns/areas because they're majority black, while I happily take public transport and walk through them for work and have never once felt fearful. I work the same kind of jobs that working class minorities do, these are the people I work with, become friends with, and feel solidarity towards. GunnerJ posted:hey at least they're ~homogeneous~ right? Uhh, is this a joke? China has a ton of minorities that they constantly treat like poo poo. Internet communists always defend them for it. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 19:54
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"hi, i'm a socialist. i think a mass of disenfranchised working people should, instead of being radicalized and brought to class consciousness as a means of bolstering revolutionary potential at the center of world reaction, be sent out of the country. i believe this because, the spanish language, is hard." guess my recall wasn't perfect. but the point stands. i'd like to see an occupational chart of members of major parties in capitalist nations as a point of comparison. my guess? fewer farmers and fishermen. The Saurus posted:China has incredibly levels of pollution that cause severe damage to its populace and they force people to pay for their own healthcare. They evict tenants and destroy houses with no compensation that have been lived in for generations in order to build hotels for western businessmen and native oligarchs. there is a pollution problem but unlike the west, china is actually doing something about it. i don't think "having an issue and not solving it overnight" makes a country a nightmare hellscape, but then that's the standard anticoms hold all AES nations to. you're completely wrong about health care. big surprise. though it would have been better for health care to stay universal, the government has figured this out themselves and is back on track for universal coverage in the next couple years. and state ownership is not the same thing as socialism, yes. but the relationship the working class has to production is still, ultimately, one of ownership in china. again, compare the prc to the russian federation and see the difference. no executives in china or ccp officials carry the same power as the russian oligarchs. here's a bunch of things you won't read. 1 2 3 4 heritage foundation sucks but numbers are numbers 5 6 7 8 9 10 The Saurus posted:Uhh, is this a joke? China has a ton of minorities that they constantly treat like poo poo. Internet communists always defend them for it. oops! lol lmao shrug now if your claim is based on an unquantifiable principle like "do chinese people still carry prejudices?" well, ok. yes. that's not getting eradicated overnight, just as anti-semitism had to be criminalized in the ussr to begin to curb centuries of imperial bigotry. government can only do so much, and again, your standards are impossible to meet if you're going to equate vague cultural attitudes with official policy. R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Mar 7, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 02:31
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Homework Explainer posted:hi, i'm a socialist. i think a mass of disenfranchised working people should, instead of being radicalized and brought to class consciousness as a means of bolstering revolutionary potential at the center of world reaction, be sent out of the country. i believe this because, the spanish language, is hard. You want to radicalize people because you believe it bolsters revolutionary potential.
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Mar 7, 2016 02:59
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Jewel Repetition posted:You want to radicalize people because you believe it bolsters revolutionary potential. i added quotation marks to make the point obvious, but is there some sort of problem with that statement edit: i refuse to double post 
R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Mar 7, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 03:07
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China is a corporatist state http://tinyurl.com/jr9rkof and China has for years been trying to emulate the "Singapore Model" http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/china-misappropriates-singapore-model-by-minxin-pei-2015-03?barrier=true
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Mar 7, 2016 05:08
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Homework Explainer posted:i added quotation marks to make the point obvious, but is there some sort of problem with that statement Uhh cuz radicalism is like, inherently bad dude. Its like in bioshock infinite the reds just started killing everyone for no reason after you domed like a hundred cops for them.
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Mar 7, 2016 05:12
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The Saurus posted:If [x] is legitimately socialist, then socialism loving sucks.
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Mar 7, 2016 05:19
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I met Chinese marxists who organize factory workers for better wages and conditions, access to healthcare and education for their children etc. Many of these workers are internal migrants who have been proletarianized by the enclosure and privatization of the peasant communes the revolution had created and now have to get jobs in capitalist industries to survive or to escape inheritance-motivated arranged marriages, in regions where they have zero rights or protections thanks to China's internal borders system. All the activities of these marxist labour activists, including the bare minimum like simply holding assemblies of workers to just discuss conditions, are considered illegal by the state and some have received threats to their families and friends by the secret police. Meanwhile the "official" state-approved and legal unions do nothing to represent the concerns of workers and do little more than lobby for capitalist investment in their sector of the economy. How is today's China "socialist" in any way that I, as someone who believes in international worker's revolution and the abolition of capitalist relations, should care about? Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Mar 7, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 14:57
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Bob le Moche posted:I met Chinese Chinese marxists who organize factory workers for better wages and conditions, access to healthcare and education for their children etc. Many of these workers are internal migrants who have been proletarianized by the enclosure and privatization of the peasant communes the revolution had created and now have to get jobs in capitalist industries to survive or to escape inheritance-motivated arranged marriages, in regions where they have zero rights or protections thanks to China's internal borders system. All the activities of these marxist labour activists, including the bare minimum like simply holding assemblies of workers to just discuss conditions, are considered illegal by the state and some have received threats to their families and friends by the secret police. Meanwhile the "official" state-approved and legal unions do nothing to represent the concerns of workers and do little more than lobby for capitalist investment in their sector of the economy. sounds to me like you met some bourgeois counter-revolutionaries, comrade
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Mar 7, 2016 15:13
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Imagine if the Americans on Forbes 500 list were also in the US government, and also there was no democracy. That's China. You're a moron if you're comparing a democratic state nationalizing industry to the mix of capitalists/bureaucrats that is the CCP. The Economist is a poo poo rag for lovely people, and so is Forbes.
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Mar 7, 2016 15:39
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Bob le Moche posted:I met Chinese marxists who organize factory workers for better wages and conditions, access to healthcare and education for their children etc. Many of these workers are internal migrants who have been proletarianized by the enclosure and privatization of the peasant communes the revolution had created and now have to get jobs in capitalist industries to survive or to escape inheritance-motivated arranged marriages, in regions where they have zero rights or protections thanks to China's internal borders system. All the activities of these marxist labour activists, including the bare minimum like simply holding assemblies of workers to just discuss conditions, are considered illegal by the state and some have received threats to their families and friends by the secret police. Meanwhile the "official" state-approved and legal unions do nothing to represent the concerns of workers and do little more than lobby for capitalist investment in their sector of the economy. right, the chinese new left exists and i do think it would have been better to stick with the economic policy of the mao era. it's a shame bo xilai did crimes, as his model for development would have been interesting to see adopted on a wider scale. however, when opining on socialism in remote parts of the world i've never been to, i'm highly distrustful of the mainstream narrative as a matter of course. it's in the interests of the imperial bourgeoisie to split opposition to china two ways by propagandizing out of both sides of its mouth; calling the prc a deadly rival to enflame the american right wing with good old-fashioned yellow peril and anti-communism, and calling it "ruthless capitalist" to engender criticism on the left. just as i defer to official documents and the reporting of such by historians when making judgments about the ussr, a country that began nearly 100 years ago halfway across the world, i'll do so with the prc as well. i can't speak to your personal experience, but i do know the government has reason to be jittery about organizing independent of the party. much like soviet-era poland, labor organizing has been used as a method of destabilizing communist governments, and china is no exception. the people you talked to no doubt have their hearts in the right place, but even with the trade relationship china has with the united states, it's an uneasy peace at best. rudatron posted:Imagine if the Americans on Forbes 500 list were also in the US government, and also there was no democracy. guess it's a good thing i cited neither publication in my latest post! i've already put up a boatload of sources on the way the chinese economy operates, but you've clearly not read a single one and instead have opted to rely on received wisdom. no surprise.
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Mar 7, 2016 17:10
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Homework Explainer posted:right, the chinese new left exists and i do think it would have been better to stick with the economic policy of the mao era. it's a shame bo xilai did crimes, as his model for development would have been interesting to see adopted on a wider scale. u posted a bunch of articles without any actual academic background. The only socialism in China exists in the Gung Ho industrial cooperative enterprise system and that has only been legalized in 2007 after a 50 year repression.
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Mar 7, 2016 18:27
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now that bernie has lost the PSL has won my vote. i cannot wait until they win this election and communism sweeps the reactionaries and capitalists from the globe
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Mar 7, 2016 18:35
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:now that bernie has lost the PSL has won my vote. i cannot wait until they win this election and communism sweeps the reactionaries and capitalists from the globe same
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Mar 7, 2016 18:41
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Cool. You should check them out for stuff beyond the election too because this isnt about electoral politics as much as it is building a movement that can challenge capitalism! Plus they are gonna need volunteers and stuff.
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Mar 7, 2016 18:44
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The Saurus posted:The number of jobs requiring Spanish speakers are far higher than the proportion of Spanish-only speakers. the saurus successfully discovers that workers with relevant skills find it easier to obtain employment
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Mar 7, 2016 19:06
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hey yall i haven't read this and idk if there's an institutional access wall because i'm on campus, but this seems like it's relevant to some peoples' interests! http://daily.jstor.org/communist-party-of-china/
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Mar 7, 2016 20:45
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Bob le Moche posted:I met Chinese marxists who organize factory workers for better wages and conditions, access to healthcare and education for their children etc. Many of these workers are internal migrants who have been proletarianized by the enclosure and privatization of the peasant communes the revolution had created and now have to get jobs in capitalist industries to survive or to escape inheritance-motivated arranged marriages, in regions where they have zero rights or protections thanks to China's internal borders system. All the activities of these marxist labour activists, including the bare minimum like simply holding assemblies of workers to just discuss conditions, are considered illegal by the state and some have received threats to their families and friends by the secret police. Meanwhile the "official" state-approved and legal unions do nothing to represent the concerns of workers and do little more than lobby for capitalist investment in their sector of the economy. Solidarnosc had more or less soured me on the idea of self-organizing workers independently bringing about socialism, unfortunately
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Mar 8, 2016 01:56
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