More people should watch Legend of Galactic Heroes

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > More people should watch Legend of Galactic Heroes

GimmickMan: Dec 27, 2011

edit: new page :argh:

SHISHKABOB posted:

^^^uh duh? I don't see the relevance

Yeah see I'm not "giving it a pass".

To be clear, I wasn't talking about you in particular. I'm talking about the review and why I can see this as a valid point to make in a review.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 15:42

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 15:09

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

But seriously what's that one empire chicks name, Hildegard Von Mariendorf??? That almost sounds right enough to be it but I'm too lazy to look it up.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 16:15

Bad Seafood: Dec 10, 2010; If you must blink, do it now.

GimmickMan posted:

LoGH goes at length to depict the problems of dictatorships and democracies both and its primary way of criticism is showing rather than telling. Thing is, it does a fair bit of telling too! The characters talk about it, the in-setting documentaries talk about it, even the narrator talks about it. I could be wrong but I don't recall a single point in the whole of LoGH where it does the same thing for sexism that it does to politics, war, etc.

It doesn't. It's not a major theme upon which the fulcrum of the story is balanced, nor even really a minor side note. It's an unconscious inclusion, which is probably what makes it so interesting to analyze, interpret, and debate. LOGH's political commentary is front-loaded and deliberate, and heavy-handed enough that there's not really a ton of room for speculation. LOGH is not a particularly subtle show when it comes to lecturing the viewer about its political values, which makes identifying and decoding the less purposeful aspects of the show more fun.

Tangentially related, between now and when I first watched LOGH I've become a lot more familiar with Japanese history. People tend to speak of LOGH's political values and ideas in universal terms, but it might be interesting to rewatch the show hunting for explicitly or implicitly Japanese political influences.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 16:34

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

LOGH depicts brutal bigotry against the disabled as a society-wide trend, to the point where it includes vivid and graphic depictions of mass euthanasia against the disabled. If there's one consistent theme that the entire cast voices it's that the reactionary social values of Goldenbaum are hosed up. Does LOGH come off as ableist propaganda because it portrays its one major disabled character, Oberstein, as a deeply morally ambiguous Machiavellian mastermind devoted to destroying that old society?

# ? Mar 10, 2016 20:06

Infected: Oct 17, 2012; Salt Incarnate

There's also atleast Admiral Wahlen who loses an arm during the attack on earth.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 21:17

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

Bad Seafood posted:

It doesn't. It's not a major theme upon which the fulcrum of the story is balanced, nor even really a minor side note. It's an unconscious inclusion, which is probably what makes it so interesting to analyze, interpret, and debate. LOGH's political commentary is front-loaded and deliberate, and heavy-handed enough that there's not really a ton of room for speculation. LOGH is not a particularly subtle show when it comes to lecturing the viewer about its political values, which makes identifying and decoding the less purposeful aspects of the show more fun.

Tangentially related, between now and when I first watched LOGH I've become a lot more familiar with Japanese history. People tend to speak of LOGH's political values and ideas in universal terms, but it might be interesting to rewatch the show hunting for explicitly or implicitly Japanese political influences.

Declaring them to be "unconscious inclusions" are essentially a dismissal of their importance. LoGH is a work of art, and I don't mean that in a pretentious way. I just mean to say that I believe that art is a reflection of life, and the works that we create are never "unconscious", they always are guided in every way by conscious understanding. I reread that and it sounds confusing, because most people define "unconscious" acts as acts that you didn't premeditate. But I think that any act that one takes, which is under the guidance of the conscious mind, is part of said conscious mind. We contain within our minds our culture and ideology, and whether we set a predefined goal to recognize these concepts or not, they will appear in our art.

This isn't a strong entirely coherent argument, but I would appreciate criticisms of it. It's my attempt at explaining why LoGH is a misogynist/sexist work (among other things). Or should I say, it has those elements. But because it contains those elements, they are also one and a part of the whole.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 21:42

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

I don't think that calling them "unconscious" was meant to be understood as calling them unimportant; just the opposite, in fact.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 21:45

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

Bongo Bill posted:

I don't think that calling them "unconscious" was meant to be understood as calling them unimportant; just the opposite, in fact.

Yes, I just don't like the use of the word "unconscious". Makes it sound like it's an accident, or uncontrollable.

# ? Mar 10, 2016 21:49

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Ve9h1HNBA&t=29s

# ? Mar 10, 2016 21:52

Chas McGill: Oct 29, 2010; loves Fat Philippe

Surely unconscious inclusions are more telling tha-

Never mind.

Who is going to be gender swapped in the anime? Pervy Poplan? Julia(n)?

MASHENGO

I can just picture Yang saying "What is that?" disgustedly as a woman approaches the bridge...

# ? Mar 10, 2016 22:17

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

I think a good character for a female role would be Adrian Rubinsky's child.

Who tries to usurp him and murder him or whatever, but fails, to Rubinsky's... moderate disappointment?

# ? Mar 10, 2016 22:21

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Chas McGill posted:

Surely unconscious inclusions are more telling tha-

Never mind.

Who is going to be gender swapped in the anime? Pervy Poplan? Julia(n)?

MASHENGO

I can just picture Yang saying "What is that?" disgustedly as a woman approaches the bridge...

Annerose

# ? Mar 10, 2016 22:23

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

Read the prologue of the book.

I can understand some of the criticism. If I hadn't seen the series I'd be totally in "why do I care" mode. That said, I love the "pompous bombastic 19th century historian purple prose" style, having read enough of the real thing to appreciate taking the piss out of it.

I will miss the Mahler and Dvorak and Mozart and Bruckner and...

# ? Mar 11, 2016 00:35

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

Chas McGill posted:

Surely unconscious inclusions are more telling tha-

Never mind.

Who is going to be gender swapped in the anime? Pervy Poplan? Julia(n)?

MASHENGO

I can just picture Yang saying "What is that?" disgustedly as a woman approaches the bridge...

Gender swap Yang IMO

I don't even think it would change the subtext between Yang and Reinhard

# ? Mar 11, 2016 00:51

Bad Seafood: Dec 10, 2010; If you must blink, do it now.

SHISHKABOB posted:

Declaring them to be "unconscious inclusions" are essentially a dismissal of their importance. LoGH is a work of art, and I don't mean that in a pretentious way. I just mean to say that I believe that art is a reflection of life, and the works that we create are never "unconscious", they always are guided in every way by conscious understanding. I reread that and it sounds confusing, because most people define "unconscious" acts as acts that you didn't premeditate. But I think that any act that one takes, which is under the guidance of the conscious mind, is part of said conscious mind. We contain within our minds our culture and ideology, and whether we set a predefined goal to recognize these concepts or not, they will appear in our art.

This isn't a strong entirely coherent argument, but I would appreciate criticisms of it. It's my attempt at explaining why LoGH is a misogynist/sexist work (among other things). Or should I say, it has those elements. But because it contains those elements, they are also one and a part of the whole.

You may prefer another word, but it seems from your post we don't disagree in theory - at least not on this point. At any rate, I certainly don't believe "Unconscious" elements to have less value than "Conscious" ones. Indeed, from an analytical and historical perspective, it is often the "Unconscious" elements that are the more revealing and informative. It's where the influences of our era, our upbringing, our assumptions, and our culture come to bear in ways that are sometimes invisible to us because we don't necessarily think about them in the same way we do when we deliberately decide to communicate something specific.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 02:17

Go RV!: Jun 19, 2008; Uglier on the inside.

Man, this page is a fuckin' MINEFIELD for anyone who hasn't seen the show.

Like the guys doing the podcast.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 02:23

Bad Seafood: Dec 10, 2010; If you must blink, do it now.

It's a ten-year-old thread for a twenty-year-old show, I'm not gonna go full police state and mandate black bars for the 1% of posters present who haven't seen the whole thing.

No offense, podcast guys.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 03:07

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

Go RV! posted:

Man, this page is a fuckin' MINEFIELD for anyone who hasn't seen the show.

Like the guys doing the podcast.

I don't give a gently caress :twisted:

# ? Mar 11, 2016 03:22

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

The book is constantly ogling Reinhard and Siegfried.

Siegfried: "When he was out of uniform, he was 'nothing but a handsome, redheaded beanpole,' as the female officers in the rear service whispered."

Reinhard: "Reinhard was a handsome young man. One might even say his good looks were without peer. His white, oval face was adorned on three sides with slightly curling golden hair, and his lips and the bridge of his nose had an elegance that brought to mind a sculpture carved by the hands of some ancient master craftsman."

It will never stop being hilarious how homoerotic this story is.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 17:36

The_White_Crane: May 10, 2008

Patter Song posted:

The book is constantly ogling Reinhard and Siegfried.

Siegfried: "When he was out of uniform, he was 'nothing but a handsome, redheaded beanpole,' as the female officers in the rear service whispered."

Reinhard: "Reinhard was a handsome young man. One might even say his good looks were without peer. His white, oval face was adorned on three sides with slightly curling golden hair, and his lips and the bridge of his nose had an elegance that brought to mind a sculpture carved by the hands of some ancient master craftsman."

It will never stop being hilarious how homoerotic this story is.

I'm sorry, but unless he has a complexion as clear as jade, rich red lips, and ear lobes which hang to his shoulders then I want nothing to do with him. :colbert:

_{Liu Bei would look like a goddamn nightmare if you took the description literally.}

# ? Mar 11, 2016 19:24

Yaoi Gagarin: Feb 20, 2014

I'm still only a few chapters into the book, but I get the impression that besides Dusty, LOGH is one of the most faithful adaptations I've ever seen. The show even includes Tanaka's little digressions about tank beds and how most soldiers who are wounded survive.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 20:21

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

VostokProgram posted:

I'm still only a few chapters into the book, but I get the impression that besides Dusty, LOGH is one of the most faithful adaptations I've ever seen. The show even includes Tanaka's little digressions about tank beds and how most soldiers who are wounded survive.

Agreed. I feel like I'm watching episode 1. The dialogue is wordier but hits all of the same scenes. Also the author of the book's translation recognized the Phoenian gods naming scheme for placenames so the book starts out with a Battle of Astarte rather than the fansubbers' Battle of Astate.

Probably the biggest namechange I've noted is that the ancient hero of the Alliance mentioned in the prologue is Yusuf Topparol rather than Yusuf Tparl.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 20:41

Yaoi Gagarin: Feb 20, 2014

Patter Song posted:

Agreed. I feel like I'm watching episode 1. The dialogue is wordier but hits all of the same scenes. Also the author of the book's translation recognized the Phoenian gods naming scheme for placenames so the book starts out with a Battle of Astarte rather than the fansubbers' Battle of Astate.

Probably the biggest namechange I've noted is that the ancient hero of the Alliance mentioned in the prologue is Yusuf Topparol rather than Yusuf Tparl.

Was Central Anime working without referencing the source material? I remember them changing some names over the course of the show. Like Earth Church -> Terraists. If they knew Japanese well enough to subtitle the show you would think they could read the books but perhaps it's not so simple.

I don't particularly like the cover art. Feels like it was lifted from a Star Wars comic.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 21:19

The_White_Crane: May 10, 2008

VostokProgram posted:

Was Central Anime working without referencing the source material? I remember them changing some names over the course of the show. Like Earth Church -> Terraists. If they knew Japanese well enough to subtitle the show you would think they could read the books but perhaps it's not so simple.

Yes.
Most notably "Zephyr Particles" should be "Seffle Particles", after the discoverer.
But I think that zephyr particles sounds better anyway.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 22:41

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

"Yang's Name Notation Type was E. This was a tradition carried over from the days of the federation. People whose family names came before their given names were designated E, which stood for Eastern. Those whose given names came before their family names were called W, for Western."

Well, that's one mystery cleared up.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 22:53

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

I want to say these books sound really bad, but I guess it's like reading technical literature. My dads a fuckin computer nerd and he actually enjoys reading programming language manuals and poo poo like that.

# ? Mar 12, 2016 00:25

Infected: Oct 17, 2012; Salt Incarnate

You don't like LoGH, cool. We get it.

# ? Mar 12, 2016 01:12

DamnGlitch: Sep 2, 2004

Infected posted:

You don't like LoGH, cool. We get it.

# ? Mar 12, 2016 05:29

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

The LOGH book reads like the show-Bible of the show: the volume long-running TV shows put together to remember who all the characters are, what they were doing when and why.

I would not recommend this book to anyone who has not already seen the show.

That said, from a series vet's perspective, it's a fascinating "so that's where that came from" experience. I just read the story of Yang Wen-Li's early childhood that the series doesn't touch until Spiral Labyrinth, as a massive digression in the Battle of Astarte.

# ? Mar 12, 2016 06:12

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

Infected posted:

You don't like LoGH, cool. We get it.

w h a t

It was good, though?

# ? Mar 12, 2016 08:01

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

75 pages in and I think it's decided: Legend of Galactic Heroes might be the most faithful book->TV adaptation ever. A lot of the dialogue is word for word (excepting minor shifts due to different translators).

It's a story that works much better in a visual medium, in my opinion. That probably even includes those ridiculous LOGH stage plays that have never made it out of Japan.

Pretty much the only time the narrator shows any signs of emotion is either A. when he's calling non-Yang Alliance people or non-Reinhard Imperial people idiots or B. when the narrator is talking about how sexy Reinhard is, which actually gets weirder because the book attaches descriptions of Reinhard's lovely blue eyes shining or flashing pretty much every time he talks. Show don't tell as a cliche was born for our dear :swoon:

Reinhardo-sama :swoon:

: if I hadn't already seen 165 episodes and 3 movies worth of stuff about the guy, I wouldn't really be sure what to picture.

At the point I'm at, I've read basically word-for-word transcripts of the first two episodes of the show and the first episode of Spiral Labyrinth (Yang's childhood), described at this point in the story rather than much later.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 04:14

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

quote:

In a sonorous voice, the coordinator of ceremonies called for the man of the hour to come forth.

"Lord Reinhard, Count von Lohengramm!"

This time there was no need to bow deeply, so all those assembled turned their eyes towards the young military officer walking across the carpet towards them.

There were sighs of admiration from among the noble ladies. Even those who harbored hostility toward Reinhard�to wit, the greater part of the attendees�couldn't help acknowledging his incomparable good looks.

His face was like that of a doll crafted from the finest baici porcelain, though his eyes were too piercing for a doll's, his expression too intense and strong. If not for the emperor's indulgence with Reinhard's elder sister Annerose and the expression Reinhard wore at that moment, backbiting gossip of a sovereign-subject sodomy would likely have been inevitable.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 18:25

Yaoi Gagarin: Feb 20, 2014

Patter Song posted:

Tanaka certainly has a way with words. :allears:

# ? Mar 13, 2016 22:20

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

I'm starting to think that people were way off for criticizing the lack of women in Legend of Galactic Heroes.

No poo poo there's few women...this is the gayest setting ever written.

There's only homoerotic subtext in the TV version...in the book it's the most blatant text I've encountered in a long time. Pretty much without exclusion every male character who has been introduced who has met Reinhard wants to bang Reinhard and the narrator has said so in so many words, and while there are references to anonymous women characters who also do, none have actually been named yet.

Couple that with the references to Kaiser Rudolf "the Great" banning homosexuality 400 years ago, creating a closet case dynamic in Imperial society, and it's easy to imagine that the entire cast is closet cases trying to feel each other out through innuendo.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 23:05

DamnGlitch: Sep 2, 2004

Patter Song posted:

it's easy to imagine that the entire cast is closet cases trying to feel each other out through innuendo.

Whatever you're into, man.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 01:08

Nine of Eight: Apr 28, 2011; LICK IT OFF, AND PUT IT BACK IN; Dinosaur Gum

Patter Song posted:

I'm starting to think that people were way off for criticizing the lack of women in Legend of Galactic Heroes.

No poo poo there's few women...this is the gayest setting ever written.

There's only homoerotic subtext in the TV version...in the book it's the most blatant text I've encountered in a long time. Pretty much without exclusion every male character who has been introduced who has met Reinhard wants to bang Reinhard and the narrator has said so in so many words, and while there are references to anonymous women characters who also do, none have actually been named yet.

Couple that with the references to Kaiser Rudolf "the Great" banning homosexuality 400 years ago, creating a closet case dynamic in Imperial society, and it's easy to imagine that the entire cast is closet cases trying to feel each other out through innuendo.

Your analysis definitely makes the apocryphal story of the Otaku at an early comicket who had happened upon the first LOGH Yaoi Doujin who proclaimed "It's already as gay as it gets, how can you make it more gay!?!" even more credible.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 02:02

Pewdiepie: Oct 31, 2010

If you want to jump Reinhards bones that doesn't make you gay.

# ? Mar 14, 2016 17:38

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

quote:

Ten years ago! Again, Kircheis felt that pain in his heart.
If he had been his present age 10 years ago, he would never have handed Annerose into the Emperor's hands. No matter what the cost, he would have taken the two siblings and fled, probably to the Free Planets Alliance. And by this time, he might even be an officer in the Alliance military.
But back then, he hadn't the ability and had lacked even a clear grasp of his own desires. Now things were different. But ten years or more in the past, there was nothing he could do. Why couldn't people be at the ages they needed to be at the most important moments in their lives?

Edit: Alliance Rear Admiral Caselnes' name will take some time to get used to, although Caselnes is not really odder than Cazellnu. "Job Tr�nicht," complete with umlaut, dramatically changes the sound of that character's name and raises questions. Is he descended from recent Imperial refugees?

Patter Song fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 14, 2016

# ? Mar 14, 2016 19:11

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

Last post for now, but there's actually an interesting explanation of how the hell the Alliance government worked in here.

quote:

The face of Defense Chairman Job Tr�nicht rose up in both of their recollections.

A tall, handsome, youthful politician of forty-one. An energetic, argumentative hard-liner against the empire. Half of those who knew him praised him as an eloquent orator. The other half loathed him for a sophist.

The Alliance's current head of state was Supreme Council Chairman Royal Sunford. An elderly politician who had risen out of political strife to play the role of moderator, he was in all things devoted to respect for precedent. Since hw was somewhat lacking in vigor, the spotlight was beginning to shine on Tr�nicht as the leader of the next generation.

"But having to listen to that man's tasteless rabble-rousing at length is worse than pulling an all-nighter," Caselnes said disgustedly. Although he was in the military, he was in the minority opinion on this. A publicity hound Tr�nicht may have been, but he spoke passionately of providing ample facilities for the military and of crushing the empire, and among those whose affection he garnered, many were uniformed soldiers. Yang, too, was one of the minority.

Also, the Alliance's anthem is somewhat different. Liberty, alas, no longer stands for freedom.

quote:

My friends, someday, the oppressor we'll o'erthrow
And on liberated worlds
We'll raise freedom's flag
Now, we fight for a shining future
Today we fight for a fruitful tomorrow.
Friends let us sing; the soul of freedom praise.
Friends let us sing; the soul of freedom show.
From beyond the darkness of tyranny
With our own hands let's bring freedom's dawn.
Oh we are freedom's people,
Through eternity unconquered

# ? Mar 15, 2016 01:31

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 15:09

Chas McGill: Oct 29, 2010; loves Fat Philippe

Has Schenkopp made an entrance yet? How is he described?

# ? Mar 15, 2016 01:42

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > More people should watch Legend of Galactic Heroes

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