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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
The whole girls with plane legs thing just looks incredibly stupid and goofy, I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and go "yeah, this is a thing I'm totally into."

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Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Kai Tave posted:

The whole girls with plane legs thing just looks incredibly stupid and goofy, I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and go "yeah, this is a thing I'm totally into."

It's just fanservice. Because you see, the leg planes are so tight that the girls can't wear pants, and the world they life in has apparently not invented skirts or any kind of swimsuit*, so all they have to "cover" their underwear are their shirts :science:

(Though AFAIK, there exists an evil censored version that ruins the artistic vision of the creators by lensflaring the gently caress out of all those panty shots)

*) Though I'm pretty sure there is at least one beach episode. There always is.

LatwPIAT posted:

"I look at him with my aura sight. What colour is his aura."
"Uh... 'Wouldn't you like to know?'"
"I would. That's why I'm looking at him with my aura sight. What's his colour?"
"No, seriously, that's what it says: 'Wouldn't you like to know?'"
"Oh, so he's a Nephandi. Right. I blast him with Forces, Prime, and 4 dots of Quintessence."

I dunno: The Whatevering.

"What's the Alignment of that monster?" - "Wouldn't you like to know?"
"What does my Sense Magic tell me about it?" - "I don't know, man. Do I look like the writer of this book?"

I so want to write that.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Mar 27, 2016

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



I suspect Brucato's point was "a Nephandus will almost certainly not give casual tells with anything like the sort of reliability that would let you use Detect Evil." It would be extra helpful if there were simple spells available for casual use which would mess with your aura, because then he doesn't even have to explain it: "Hm, that guy might possibly have Spirit or Prime 1."

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN
Or instead of describing a color you're meant to describe an unknowable feeling of wrongness that can't be bound into one color?

quote:

Paradigm? What's that? Nah, you might believe that the entire world is a computer simulation, but marijuana and yoga are how you cast magick.

Have you read any Terrance McKenna? Some people believe that drugs enable you to access the realm of reality where the Machine Elves program it (think the Pattern Spiders). Or maybe it just lets you see the source code of the universe, like I'm The Matrix.

quote:

I realize that in M20, physical or geometrical concepts of "range" are arbitrary illusions, but I still baulk at "Very familiar" and "Visited once" being used to describe distances. (And, again, how am borderline autistic me supposed to discern between "Familiar" and "Very familiar"?)

It's Distance based on the Law of Sympathy. It's not 'physical' distance but how we perceive it. And Familiar is my neighbor or local coffee shop. Very Familiar is my house that I grew up in.

You seem really hostile to every basic setting and stylistic assumption of Mage. It's cool, not every game is for every person, but so much of this hate seems directed at things that are either inoffensive or pretty cool. Sure, everything is a bit fuzzy - because you're playing reality-warping Mages who can make up their own spells. So maybe a 'Mob' is 12 people if you're using neurolinguistic programming to effect people who can hear your voice, but it's 70 people if you're releasing a mind-control virus. Just discuss it with the ST and go with what seems coolest. That flexibility is the whole point!

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Count Chocula posted:

You seem really hostile to every basic setting and stylistic assumption of Mage. It's cool, not every game is for every person, but so much of this hate seems directed at things that are either inoffensive or pretty cool. Sure, everything is a bit fuzzy - because you're playing reality-warping Mages who can make up their own spells. So maybe a 'Mob' is 12 people if you're using neurolinguistic programming to effect people who can hear your voice, but it's 70 people if you're releasing a mind-control virus. Just discuss it with the ST and go with what seems coolest. That flexibility is the whole point!

I think we perceive M20 as hostile to the basic setting of Mage, because it's boiling down the central assumption of the game where we all create our own reality to "oh, but they all work the same way and any perceived differences are meaningless set dressing that you should grow out of."

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

Count Chocula posted:

It's Distance based on the Law of Sympathy. It's not 'physical' distance but how we perceive it. And Familiar is my neighbor or local coffee shop. Very Familiar is my house that I grew up in.

Which is great if you're a Hermetic but terrible if you're not.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN

Ratoslov posted:

Which is great if you're a Hermetic but terrible if you're not.

Nah, its easier for me to treat the world this way and let my GPS give me directions. But seriously, there's enough spells (and mundane technology) that render physical 'distance' meaningless, so it's better if the whole game works on those assumptions. And they're clearly laid out, just like how Etheral Player's Guide lays out its dream-logic.

Again, some people aren't good at math or physics or things like that, so it's fun to play games that traffic in older, softer laws. That's part of the attraction of the setting. I'm not reviewing Phoenix Command and attacking it because I hate charts.

Rand Brittain posted:

I think we perceive M20 as hostile to the basic setting of Mage, because it's boiling down the central assumption of the game where we all create our own reality to "oh, but they all work the same way and any perceived differences are meaningless set dressing that you should grow out of."

I don't understand this? There needs to be be SOME codified rules, but the whole 'we all do the same thing, we just perceive it differently' has been part of the attraction of Mage from the start. The idea that a drug guru and a hardcore Catholic can both access the same power but shape it through different means is neat.

Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 28, 2016

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

Count Chocula posted:

Nah, its easier for me to treat the world this way and let my GPS give me directions. But seriously, there's enough spells (and mundane technology) that render physical 'distance' meaningless, so it's better if the whole game works on those assumptions. And they're clearly laid out, just like how Etheral Player's Guide lays out its dream-logic.

Yes, and that's bad, because it (further) establishes that while you may be pretending to believe in Science! or Buddhism or whatever, you're just play-acting and you're really a chaos mage. There's dozens of possible definitions for Distance that don't involve the Law of Sympathy. Maybe it's easier to teleport to Google's server room than it is to teleport to my family home because the server room has more bandwidth. Maybe it's easy to teleport to places with lots of death and the veil between worlds is thin, like people about to die or graveyards, than it is to teleport to jungles or houses. Maybe distance is a lie entirely. But that's all not true, what is true is Brucato's version of chaos magic.

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Count Chocula posted:

I don't understand this? There needs to be be SOME codified rules, but the whole 'we all do the same thing, we just perceive it differently' has been part of the attraction of Mage from the start. The idea that a drug guru and a hardcore Catholic can both access the same power but shape it through different means is neat.

Conversely, I always treated this as a mechanical necessity that forced things to work the same way even when that didn't make sense, like the box in Dreamspeakers that said "okay, yeah, Dreamspeakers believe that all their magic invokes spirits, so the idea of them having a specific Sphere to invoke spirit magic which they all have to buy doesn't fit. But this game we made uses Hermetic Spheres in the rules, so."

I want the differences between paradigms to be important rather than cosmetic.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN
Why, though? I LIKE that you can mix and match whatever's cool, so you can play a Jerry Lee Lewis type who's foci are God, Sin, and Rock and Roll. It's part of the attraction of the setting to me that you can play The Invisibles and have a party with a bunch of weird mishmashes.

And if you don't like it, why treat it like it's WRONG somehow? It's just a setting element. I think elves and orcs and Medieval Europe are overdone, but I don't get annoyed at every D&D heartbreaker. Accept that, yes, Mage is a 90s game about Chaos Magick. There aren't many of them.

Besides, it saves the writers from making troubling dec!erations about whether Voudoun is 'more powerful' than Buddhism or whatever. Every Mage is a unique being who channels their Enlightened Will through their own personal paradigm. And everybody has an individual paradigm - nobody adheres 100% to one thing. There are tons of Christians who do yoga.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

It's deeply insulting to a lot of belief systems to say 'Naw you're all just this one boring idea of magic with different masks on'.

Like, seriously, this is that 'All religions are the SAAAAME, maaaan' stupid 101 philosophy student crap all over again and it's the most *boring* possible outcome. It suggests the author didn't want to do any real work.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Mar 28, 2016

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Count Chocula posted:

Why, though? I LIKE that you can mix and match whatever's cool, so you can play a Jerry Lee Lewis type who's foci are God, Sin, and Rock and Roll. It's part of the attraction of the setting to me that you can play The Invisibles and have a party with a bunch of weird mishmashes.

Because I want to play a version of Mage where the differences between paradigms are important, and the details of your paradigm are worth thinking about.

quote:

And if you don't like it, why treat it like it's WRONG somehow? It's just a setting element. I think elves and orcs and Medieval Europe are overdone, but I don't get annoyed at every D&D heartbreaker. Accept that, yes, Mage is a 90s game about Chaos Magick. There aren't many of them.

Lots of really good books for Mage didn't treat chaos magick as the only truth.

Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora
The issue with M20 isn't in the content (mostly) but the presentation. Mage always had the idea that paradigms are false constructs, but the idea of going beyond your paradigm to achieve enlightenment was seen as a goal and a measure of power. Brucato's presentation of the idea in M20 is way more smug about the whole thing.In the old games, Paradigms and foci were used as tools, and even if two people use the same spell mechanically, there was a world of difference in how they were explained in the narrative.

M20 has the same idea for mechanics, but Brucato presents paradigms as a crutch instead of a worldview. There's this ongoing tone where the Traditions and Technocracy are old stuffy idiots with outdated ideas of how reality works, while the new focus on the more fringe groups and their "anything goes" near-lack-of paradigm is shown in a positive light while short-cutting the entire path to enlightenment. It's the gently caress You Dad version of a game that was pretty gently caress You Dad from start, as written by the guy with a naked fairy airbrushed on his van that thinks he's still down with the kids.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Count Chocula posted:

And if you don't like it, why treat it like it's WRONG somehow? It's just a setting element. I think elves and orcs and Medieval Europe are overdone, but I don't get annoyed at every D&D heartbreaker. Accept that, yes, Mage is a 90s game about Chaos Magick. There aren't many of them.
Weirdly, Mage before M20 isn't so much, point of fact. Why, I've got the Mage 2e book right here in front of me, and a grand total of 0 traditions here have chaos magick as a suggested foci, compared to fully half of them in M20. And yet, Brucato's the design and dev lead on that book, too.

Whether it's because back then he was actually tempered by editorial oversight, or had yet to go Full Satyros in print, Phil Brucato Presents Mage is only really a 90s game about Chaos Magick when being rewritten in 2015. If you don't like the review in this thread rightly laughing at it, you could always take some of your own advice and not read something if you disagree with it.

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."
Or write your own review! I'm actually interested in talking it out with people who have a different take on the book.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
For me, the IC realization that there really is a Grand Unified Theory of magick is, pardon my phrasing, paradigm-shifting. Front-loading it, the way Brucato has with M20, really defeats the purpose of putting so much weight on the splats, and especially of introducing a rival set of Traditions.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Bieeardo posted:

For me, the IC realization that there really is a Grand Unified Theory of magick is, pardon my phrasing, paradigm-shifting. Front-loading it, the way Brucato has with M20, really defeats the purpose of putting so much weight on the splats, and especially of introducing a rival set of Traditions.
Where Vampire and Werewolf 20th seemed to be a Greatest Hits edition with some mechanical refinements and, in the case of Werewolf, a minor shift in focus to allow for a more hopeful perspective, M20 seems to be more along the lines of Mage: 4th.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
That's really what strikes me as weird about the whole thing. I was expecting a big digest of Mage, like the other x20 books had, not a Revised style rewrite.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Bieeardo posted:

That's really what strikes me as weird about the whole thing. I was expecting a big digest of Mage, like the other x20 books had, not a Revised style rewrite.

I was expecting moose cocks; we're all being pleasantly disappointed.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
Huh, weird, what day is it, it's like I've been in some kind of fugue state and have no sense of time or location anymore, I wonder what happened.

Oh right, the adorable death puppy that brings me lasers.
Anyways.


Chapter 2: Character Creation Pt. 2

So let's get back into it.
Flaws
If you are at all familiar with the Old World of Darkness you know we're heading into a dark place. I just now realized that I forgot to put the costs down for the benefits in the previous section, I also realized that I don't really care.
ADHD loving seriously? "This makes learning and staying alert difficult", -1 to initiative and your skills are limited to 4 instead of 5 at the start
Archaic You live in the past, sometimes literally, and can't start with science or technology skills and are at -1 dice to them permanently.
Bad Sight you have "Bad Site" and require glasses or contacts. You're at -1 to observation rolls with glasses and -2 without them. Which shows an amazing lack of knowledge of how contacts and glasses work.
Clumsy "You aren't the most graceful of ladies", you can never have an agility above 2 (loving 2) and are at -1 dice to their dodge. 2 in a system that scales up to 10.
Combat Freeze You can't move during the first round of combat and take -2 to all dice rolls, after that your movement speed is halved and you take -1 to all dice rolls. Why is this here? This isn't a flaw, this is "Please shelter and take care of me every time combat starts up also avoid combat cause I'm a primadonna oh wait question redacted.
Crone

quote:

Some Maga received their rebirth after they were in the prime and others like Regina have just aged be it slowly over time. of their life.

That woman isn't old, she's a loving Flounder. She's got Deeganmouth! (also Cigarette count 6)
Any attribute that is determined based on your Muscle, Agility, or Fitness is determined as if they were 1 lower, and unless you're a Furie those abilities are limited to a maximum of 3.
Diffidence... That's just a fancy word for shy... "This is rare, after all being the hand of the goddesshead does wonder for ones ego. The characters 1 dice to resolve to resist skills, abilities and gifts." Also your terrible sentence structure ruined the mechanics, Good job.
DubiousPeople just don't like you. You're at -2 dice the first time you use allure to elicit a positive response, and a -1 deice on any following tries. Which... what? If someone I don't trust does something shady that would make me trust them less the next time, not more.
Fragile Yet another "oh god please let the game revolve around me" 'flaw'. Your fitness is limited to 2 and if you ever take more than 2 damage you take an extra dice of damage, and you lose a dice on your rolls to stabilize... Yeah if you take damage ever you're basically dead.
Iconoclast Apparently this is the "Stands out in a crowd" Flaw, because you have pastel hair or a bunch of tatoos. But that's not what Iconoclast means. Sure you stand out in a crowd but it's not really an an indictment against the current system.
Liability Apparently you have to take a flaw to allow your DM to put your friends and family in danger? "The Gamemistress decides hoe the liability is used in game" and apparently the GM does this by prostituting them?
MaidenFffffffffff You're just too young. Your starting resolve can't go above a 2, you can't have a starting skill higher than 4, and you recieve -1 dice to allure rolls with adults over 18, and -2 to adults over 40. I guess thank god they didn't make the Patriarchy pedophilic?
Misandrist... excuse me for a moment...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxtmQDCyLE8
I'm better now.

quote:

The hate of males is not actually that common among Maga despite the fact that most of their foes are sexist males. The Misandrist have a true hate for the "hairier sex" and must make a successful Resolve roll not to treat them like an inferior being. If that male has dome(sic) something to earn that anger the Resolve rolls take two successes instead of one and the Misandrist will attempt to kill or worse the male if they fail the roll. Also keep in mind the Misandrist can also choose not to make the roll and jus(sic) unleash her ire on the victim with glee.
Dear game designers, if you're designing a game to try and represent a real world group in a positive light, do not play into the stereotypes given to them by their detractors.
Mystic-addiction "Those with mystic-addiction tend to use magic as much as possible,, why pick something up when you can levitate it." The flaw actually has nothing to do with that, though. At half magic points or less you're at -1 dice to any roll. if you ever hit zero you're at -2 to all dice rolls as you start to go into withdrawl because apparently you can become addicted to your own reserve of stamina?
Overconfident You need to make a resolve roll to back down in combat, and take a -1 dice penalty on any roll after one you've failed.
Pacifist... you need to make a Resolve roll to harm another sentient being, and are at -1 dice to harm one even if you succeed at that.
Plus-Sized ARE YOU loving KIDDI..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxtmQDCyLE8

quote:

There is nothing wrong with being larger than an average lady (It's all about the Bass ladies). Still being Plus-sized comes with a stigma among humans under control of the Patriacracy an(sic) also while you may be strong and Fitness you might not be as swift as you like.
Dear game designers, If roughly 40% of your sample characters could be uncharitably described as "plus-sized" don't include it as a flaw in your game. If you want you could just make a flaw for not being 'traditionally attractive'. And if you make a flaw designed to force situations where overweight women feebly waddle away from danger that says something a about you as a designer and a person.
Poor You don't make much money (due to the Patriacracy) so you can't purchase any levels in lifestyle, probably crash on your friends couch or are otherwise homeless, and can't spend more than 2 points on any one item of Swag. Even though Swag is used for things like familiars or things that aren't traditionally valued in money.
Prejudice "The greatest corruption of the Serpent." Most maga are free from this, because they're enlightened or some bullshit whynot. But you're at -1 Allure against people you're prejudiced and have to make a Resolve roll to aid them.
RageIn combat you lose control, and will fight without care for collateral damage. You must make a progressively more difficult Resolve roll(-1 dice each time) every round to come out of the battle rage.

SadistOnce you harm a person you must make a resolve roll at -1 dice or you have to harm them again the next round.
Slow Recovery You recover Mana as if your spirit were once point lower(ouch) you don't regenerate mana at all if your health is at half or less(Ouch!) and your maximum mana is reduced by 2(Why would you take this flaw?)
Superficial "What most Diva Pretend to Be" You're at -1 to all dice rolls if you aren't looking your best, and must make a resolve roll to do something that would ruin their look.
Just copy paste one of my earlier rants, from any book, I don't care at this point, this has killed my ability to do so.
It would probably fit anyway.
SusceptibilityYou're vulnerable to a substance or form of magic and your magic can't affect it, also if you're bound by the substance you can't use magic at all. Wonder womaaaannn
Unhinged..I...

quote:

The character's grip on reality is tenuous at best and some would say she's as mad. The character's actions are erratic and bizarre causing her to need to make a resolve roll to follow plans or do as she's told. In times of crisis like combat or a life and death situation the character roll a single dice(d6), on a six they are totally oblivious and think something else totally unrelated is going on.
Why would you put this in your game, why would you allow people to do this to your game. Why. WHY!?
Unlucky Your luck is Zero, you can never crit. Sure
Vengeful If you are slighted and fail a resolve roll you must do everything in your power to see your target pay.
Veridis-cutis
I.... I'm..

what (cig count 7)
Sometimes the rebirth goes wrong and you get loving Green Skin, if you don't use magic to hide it you're at -2 to allure and are treated like an outcast. This is the same point cost as having too many tattoos. Also changing your skin color is one of the free spells everyone gets it costs 1 mana and lasts for spirit-hours
Warrant You did something bad, the GM is encouraged to have this come up at least once an in-game week. PLEASE MAKE ME MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OTHER CHARACTERS GAME, ALSO GIVE ME POINTS FOR DOING SO, THANK YOU.
Zealot Make a resolve roll or just kill people I don't care the faces on those dogs will haunt my nightmares.

Gifts
I feel like I could just post this and say "Imagine 90 more pages of this" and not be in any way flippant or wrong. Just look at it.



We have
  • A woman being turned into a statue
  • A man being turned into a swarm of flies
  • A man being turned into a pitbull
  • A man being turned into a bullfrog
  • A woman being turned into a pig except her rear end is her face and her face is her rear end
  • Surprisingly zero cigarettes

Anyways, Magic. There are two types of Magic, Cants and Rites. Most forms of magic are Cants, and there are a lot of them, and a lot of them are the same thing except slightly different/more costly. It costs "path Points" to buy gifts, your goddess may discount it, and it takes Mana to cast a gift(at least 1 even with discounts). You can only cast one spell a round. You need to stand still to cast a gift(Unless you're a Harpy) and you can 'spend dice' from your casting pool to "amp" a gift and you can divide the dice from your spell pool between targets to Affect multiple people at a time. You're normally limited to one amp per level per spell but Regina can use an extra? Or something? I can see at least 4 different problems with everything in that sentence but I really don't want to go into too much detail beyond "the mechanics are hosed yo."

There are a bunch of different Amps that I really do not loving care to go into detail about but probably the most important one is "Permanente" which makes a spell last forever for the low cost of 2 dice.

Yes that is a screaming face in the smoke coming out of her hand. Why do you ask?

Cants


Holy shitballs

Okay, there are twelve pages of Cants, and eight pages of Rites, I'm not going to go into detail on each and every spell, and most of the spell schools are redundant as hell. I'm going to go over the really egregious ones but not "Yet another damage spell". Also there's a loving ton of amazing art.

There's a few things that stand out.
  • The most damage you can deal through a spell is spiritx2
  • Therefore the quickest way to take someone out of the fight is an instant death spell or to turn them into something incapable of fighting
  • They use "Liner of Sight" a whole hell of a lot
  • The only things incompatible with the Permanente amp are spells that make you prettier (so I'm not going to bother with durations)
  • That last one is kind of hosed up when you think about it

There are a bunch of gifts for 'helpful' things like curing poisons, growing plants, or raising the dead. I'm not going to post them here, because they're boring and not in any way hosed up.
There is a whole lot of really hosed up poo poo.

Black Arrow If they fail to resist you destroy their loving soul and their body falls over dead (6 Mana)
Red Arrow 2 dice per spirit in damage and any living being struck by it and need to make a resolve roll to do anything other than scream in pain. The duration is "recovery" so apparently they have to make a resolve roll to do anything other than scream in pain until they heal up? (4 mana)
Ever-Pain The target cannot die, but they cannot heal, regenerate, or regrow lost limbs. They also become extremely sensitive to tactile stimuli and the merest touch can cause an agonizing bruise (4 mana)
Face of Mercy The targets eyes, nose, and ears vanish. Their skull and skin is altered so that there aren't even holes where they used to be. Their biology is altered so that they no longer need to eat or drink (but.. apparently, not breathe?!?) and they cannot see, hear, or smell. (2 mana)
MaimPoint at a limb and if they fail to resist it just falls off, and it can never grow back except through magic. This gift can never cause enough damage to kill (3 mana)
Damning Word

quote:

Cost:7
Range: Line of Sight
Duration: Spiritx1 Day
The Damning words sends the target to a pocket dimension. This pocket dimension is a hell of the Maga on design. While in this dimension the target cannot affect the real world and are constantly tortured. When they return they lose permanently d6 Fitnessness Resolve(Sic: I think they mean Fitness and Resolve) due to the severe nature of the torture. The Characters Fitnessness and resolve can never be reduced to less than 1.
So yeah, it's not save or die, but it's a save or sadism spell that makes them less capable of resisting it the next time around.
Chimera:You can turn someone into an Animal Hybrid, they gain an animal head and fur/feathers/scales/etc/whatever and up to +2 muscle/Fitness/Agility depending on the form, and they can fly/swim/whatever. (3 mana)
Circe's Laugh:You turn them into an animal that is submissive to the Maga and must make a resolve roll to harm or disobey them. (3 mana)
Song of Circe: This isn't a spell, but it's an Amp that can be applied to the previous two spells. "A transformed victim forgets their humanity and becomes a loyal pet of the Maga(1 Dice)" :stonklol:

I'm not making a 'lol she looks like a pig' joke here, but that is not an attractively drawn anything. What is wrong with her elbows!?
Avatar of Kali You or a willing target gets +1 Muscle, Fitness, and Agility per 2 spirit. Resist 2 dice of damage, can fly at twice their normal walk and running speed. Grows 8 arms, +2 dice to any spell that causes damage, death, or fear, immune to spells that cause instant death or fear. Can be made Permanent, and since the participant needs to be willing they literally cannot resist it, who the gently caress thought this was a good idea? (cost 5 but who loving cares)

Also: there's an entire spell school called Mrs Sadie's Sorcery. I can't quite remember but I'm reasonably certain Sadie is a character from Witch Girl Adventures.

quote:

Under the tutelage of Circe, Sadie South, a Maga born in the late 19th century who has the distinction of being one of the last "rebirths" before the new twenty-first century categorized and created new gifts in the name of the goddess of change

Cigarette count 8

quote:

Cigarette
Level: 5
Range: Line of Sight
Duration: Permanente
The victim becomes either a cigar or cigarette in the hand or holder of the Maga. The person though self aware cannot move or communicate, they can ehar and feel however. As a cigarette or cigar the caster may smoke them. The Maga gains from their victim 1 mana point per health level the victim has left and is privy to the deepest thoughts of the victims and is able to gain as much insight as the Game mistress allows. If a victim is smoked they can still be turned back full and whole but suffer a permanent loss of d6 Muscle, Agility, and Fitness.
Cigarette count ERROR INDEX OVERFLOW
Okay, let's.. just dissect that. Apparently "Permanente" isn't some hilarious faux Spanish they just don't know how to spell "Permanent". Also people have a lot of health levels. If this spell goes off you can literally just carry around hundreds of mana points in your pocket and have encyclopedic knowledge of everything your targets know. Also: they are still aware and can feel pain as you smoke them and reduce them to ashes, and will live eternally in that state until they're turned back.
Obliterate:You reduce a target to a smouldering pile of ashes. This is a spell with a duration. It can be reversed (cost 5, the same as Cigarette)
Small:You reduce the target's size by half per spirit rank you have. His physical attributes are reduced by 1 per point of spirit (cost 3)

Cigarette Count WHY WAS I PROGRAMMED TO FEEL PAIN
TransfigureYou turn a person or animal into a single inanimate object no larger than spirit x 100 pounds. This gift lasts for 1 hour per spirit unless permanent, and they are still self aware and have all five senses but cannot communicate in any way. They can be broken and destroyed in this form and returned to normal.(cost 5)
Warp:You warp and twist a victim causing "it parts" to grow, shrink, or twist at random. -2 to all dice rolls, their walk and run speed are reduced to 1/4th of maximum, and attempting to do anything causes d6 points of damage (3 mana)

Yeah... Okay.. we're done with Cants... Unfortunately there's still one Rite worth mentioning.

I've hotlinked the full sized version of that image.. just... look at it.

quote:

Effigy Cigar
Favor: 4
Time: 24 hours to make/30 minutes to smoke
Level: 5
The caster takes a Cigar and dips it in a combination of rum, chocolate, ground(sic?), ebony ash and the blood of a crow. They then sit the cigar in the concoction under moonlight for one night. The next morning the cigar will be ready and taste of rum and cocoa and rum.
The Maga can light and smoke the cigar while thinking of a person they wish to harm. The victim resist the cigar as if it was a Gift (Gift Dice vs Spirit), at this point while smoking the Maga can do one of the following to the regardless of distance between them.
1. Reduce the victim slowly to ash and absorb their mana points to restore the Maga's up to the maximum.
2. Summon the person drawing them through the cigar and out in a plume of smoke. The victim takes D6 damage from burning but not enough to kill them.
3. Shrink the person down to as small as 1/14th of an inch, the victim's height is halved with each puff of the cigar.
The cigar once used can be restored from the but and ash by the Rite of Restoration.
Cigarette Count PLEASE MERCIFUL ROBOGOD GRANT ME THE ABILITY TO DIE

Swag

So guess what. There are no hard rules for the power of swag. There are guidelines but the actual strength or utility is left up to the Gamemistress. Also I have no idea why the spell lists are between this and the rest of character creation.
Artifact: A Magical item that helps a witch in some way that isn't casting spells. It can range from "A jacke that keeps the wearer warm no mater how cold it is and has pockets that hold twice as much as they should." or "A suit of magical power armor" or "paints that turn drawings real for a short period of time.
Contacts: Have you played a World of Darkness Game before? They're contacts. except they range up to "World leader" at the top end with "Police officer" at the low end.
Conveyance: At the low end we're talking about a car. At 5 point's it's the literal loving TARDIS.
Familiar: At 1 point it's a regular pet. At 5 points it's a horse sized dragon.
Lifestyle: A measure of your means and wealth contrasted with your job and hahahaha yeah right have fun with that.
Place of Power: A room or area aligned to the Mage's power. Unfortunately it's kind of poorly worded and only upgrades at certain thresholds. A rank 2 place of power would be helpful since it gives +2 to all your gift dice while inside it and you can never flub, so it's a good place to do Rites I guess?

Talisman: It helps you cast spells, precisely how it does that is left up to the GM, there are examples but they're all over the damned place.

Thrall: Your servants or slaves. The problem here isn't one of context (Though having literal mindless male slaves is.. problematic) it's one of mechanics. They're just not that useful. At rank 1 they only have 10 levels to divide amongst the 8 stats, scaling up to 16 at rank 4. and 6-12 skill points. They're going to be poo poo in a fight unless you use spells to buff them, so I guess you could use them as your research squad maybe by hyper specializing them in brains and sciences?

Regardless, that's over now, the next chapter is the GM's guide which is mechanically dense and nonsensical accompanied by some pretty insane art. I'm not sure how much time I'll spend on it cause we're definitely going downhill from facepigass pigassface and Holy gently caress Cigarettes.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


COTTON MATHER DID NOTHING WRONG

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
"Clearly we need multiple spells that turn your opponents into cigarettes" - An Actual Person

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
That was the first Bellum Maga post that I read in its entirety, and :psyduck: what a tire fire of a game.

senrath
Nov 4, 2009

Look Professor, a destruct switch!


I have a feeling that "chocolate, ground" is supposed to be a single item, like you'd list it in a recipe. Of course the people (person?) behind the game don't (doesn't) understand how comma separated lists work, but that's not surprising given how little they understand about anything else.

Hostile V
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

"Look, I get it, you want to be all traditional? But smoking cigarettes made of people is soooo bad for you, you can get cancer from some person's legs clogging your lungs with magical tar and I know a girl who has a cousin whose roommate was smoking a guy who turned back into a normal person halfway and she almost choked on his toes. Disgusting, right? I've found it's so much easier to cast "flesh to goo" and use an alembic still to distill it for e-juice. It's way healthier and you have to use less people so it's so much more efficient and nobody gets all pissy if you vape in public, it's super handy. My vape used to be an EVP recorder but I bought it on eBay and retrofitted it, it's so decent and I can use it to blow smoke rings that look like screaming ghosts, check it out."

(Bellum Maga was released in November 2015 and didn't get the memo that teens don't smoke anymore)

(I'm aware it's most likely a fetish thing)

Crasical
Apr 22, 2014

GG!*
*GET GOOD
:stonklol:

Each post of Bellum Maga is giving me SAN loss, I swear.

It's incredible.

The Crotch
Oct 16, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2ah2mwo1oM

But on loop, forever.

Adnachiel
Oct 21, 2012
drat... :stare:


Pretty sure Endora hated Darrin because he was a mortal who was boning her daughter, not because he was a man. So... good job on your fantasy racism t-shirt, I guess.

quote:

Also: there's an entire spell school called Mrs Sadie's Sorcery. I can't quite remember but I'm reasonably certain Sadie is a character from Witch Girl Adventures.

I haven't seen her. That looks like one of Soto's original characters.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Kurieg posted:

Ever-Pain The target cannot die, but they cannot heal, regenerate, or regrow lost limbs. They also become extremely sensitive to tactile stimuli and the merest touch can cause an agonizing bruise (4 mana)

A guro spell - a clear sign that these are totally the good guys girls.

Kurieg posted:

Maim Point at a limb and if they fail to resist it just falls off, and it can never grow back except through magic. This gift can never cause enough damage to kill (3 mana)

Why do these spells assume that people can regrow limbs naturally o_O ?

Hostile V posted:

(Bellum Maga was released in November 2015 and didn't get the memo that teens don't smoke anymore)

(I'm aware it's most likely a fetish thing)

Maybe they're just serving the Goddess of Lung Cancer?

Also, aren't cigarettes a phallic symbol?

Doresh fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Mar 28, 2016

Emy
Apr 21, 2009
So is the smoking all just fetish and torture stuff, or does it let you do things like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHLw2lyLnA8

The Crotch
Oct 16, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo

Doresh posted:

Why do these spells assume that people can regrow limbs naturally o_O ?
Never cast Maim on an octopus.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

The Crotch posted:

Never cast Maim on an octopus.

Why would they ever do that? At least some types of octopus have males that are microscopic compared to the females and die after sex. They are the perfect species blessed by the Goddesshead.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Nessus posted:

I suspect Brucato's point was "a Nephandus will almost certainly not give casual tells with anything like the sort of reliability that would let you use Detect Evil." It would be extra helpful if there were simple spells available for casual use which would mess with your aura, because then he doesn't even have to explain it: "Hm, that guy might possibly have Spirit or Prime 1."

Maybe. But then I think it'd have been more useful if instead of "Wouldn't you like to know?", it had read "Like any other mage" or "Masked to look like a regular mage" or something like that, instead of forcing me to speculate while being incredibly smug about it.

Count Chocula posted:

Or instead of describing a color you're meant to describe an unknowable feeling of wrongness that can't be bound into one color?

The words for the colour "an unknowable feeling of wrongness that can't be bound into one color" in the English language are "an unknowable feeling of wrongness that can't be bound into one color", not "Wouldn't you like to know?"

Count Chocula posted:

Have you read any Terrance McKenna? Some people believe that drugs enable you to access the realm of reality where the Machine Elves program it (think the Pattern Spiders). Or maybe it just lets you see the source code of the universe, like I'm The Matrix.

MTAs is based on a tradition of New Age syncreticism and being ultimately rooted in Chaos Magick it is only natural that someone can have a magickal paradigm that's a shopping list of different real-world beliefs. I still think it's silly how uninterested and little invested the example characters are in their paradigms, because my understanding of MTAs (from before M20 came out) is one where paradigms are central to what a Tradition is. The Virtual Adepts, definitionally, are not mages who use yoga or marijuana to cast spells. In fact, let me quote from the opening pages of Virtual Adepts (1e):

Virtual Adepts posted:

We're a group of mages who have specific ideas concerning reality. Through these ideas, we can mold reality to our every whim. Our model for reality is the world we can create with computers and electronics. We can apply this type of analogy to the real world, effecting changes that most people deem impossible. Not all Virtual Adepts use computers. Some use pocket calculators. I've even heard of some who model reality on the programming of VCRs.

Here's what it has to say about the Virtual Adepts and computers:

Virtual Adepts posted:

They usually spend extravagant amounts of time, effort, and money in order to maintain and perfect their machine[personal computer]. Each Adept's computer is unique, often unusable by anybody but the Adept who programmed it. If an Adept is truly elite, as they say, he can use any computer in existence.

Every single sample character uses some kind of computer. The one most removed from using a computer to do magick is hugely into making MIDI music on an Amiga. I don't really think breathing-exercises and being drugged to their eyeballs makes for good examples of VA characters, which is related to all the other litres of electronic ink I've spilled explaining why it's stupid that nobody actually believes in their own paradigms. If paradigms are supposed to be unimportant, maybe don't tell players to pick between paradigm-based factions at character creation?

Count Chocula posted:

You seem really hostile to every basic setting and stylistic assumption of Mage. It's cool, not every game is for every person, but so much of this hate seems directed at things that are either inoffensive or pretty cool. Sure, everything is a bit fuzzy - because you're playing reality-warping Mages who can make up their own spells. So maybe a 'Mob' is 12 people if you're using neurolinguistic programming to effect people who can hear your voice, but it's 70 people if you're releasing a mind-control virus. Just discuss it with the ST and go with what seems coolest. That flexibility is the whole point!

I think I laid out, in elaborate detail, why I think fuzzy descriptions are figuratively literally the devil. Yeah, you can discuss it with your ST, but nowhere does it say that you have to and avoiding the need to discuss those parameters is why the rules exist in the first place. Like, seriously, it was at the front of about every WoD corebook that was released; "Bang bang. You're dead." "No, you missed me." "Did not." "Did too!". M20 can't and doesn't need to parameterize every possibility of what a person can accomplish, but I don't think my call for numbers more specific than "a mob" is somehow unreasonable.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
After Mage, Exalted, and Beast, the lack of oversight at Onyx Path these days is pretty amazing. I guess the '90s never ended after all.

Hostile V posted:

(I'm aware it's most likely a fetish thing)

More of a certainty, really.

It's just such a awful and lazy appropriation of feminism (and goddess worship, for that matter) for their abuse fantasies that actually wraps around to being effectively patriarchal itself, I think. It's astonishing, really.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Alien Rope Burn posted:

After Mage, Exalted, and Beast, the lack of oversight at Onyx Path these days is pretty amazing. I guess the '90s never ended after all.

Who's gonna do oversight? Paradox only cares insofar as the IP is required to fuel their time machine to the 90s, and Onyx Path has, like, three permanent employees. Of those, one is Rose Bailey and an exceptional but very busy person, one is Rich Thomas and cares only about how much money the company is making, and one is a guy named Mike who does art direction.

Maybe Eddie Webb still works there? But his job was to do podcasts and poo poo.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
I think the issue with Beast specifically is that they were somewhat obligated to release something and BHM was quite insistent on beast becoming what it did. Hopefully the other books in the beast series get more oversight cause the fallout from the Kickstarter copy was nuclear.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Kurieg posted:

I think the issue with Beast specifically is that they were somewhat obligated to release something and BHM was quite insistent on beast becoming what it did. Hopefully the other books in the beast series get more oversight cause the fallout from the Kickstarter copy was nuclear.

As well it should have been. Beast is one of the most loathsome things I've seen out of the White Wolf Milieu.

Which is funny because a story about how the monster and the man are both trapped in service to a cosmic narrative that won't let either of them go and only truly have one another and similarly trapped people to sympathize with even as they try to kill one another because they can't refuse would be wonderful.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Mors Rattus posted:

Who's gonna do oversight?

Uh, somebody they hire? Maybe they don't have the dollars for it, but it seems like something they really, really need... presuming that quality is a concern, anyway.

Certainly, somebody thought bringing Brucato back was a capital idea - I presume he didn't sneak in and squat out a manuscript on somebody's desk, anyway.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?


PEOPLE, PART 3

So, I looked ahead, and if I keep going at this pace, two things will happen:

  • I'll be in the People chapter for twelve solid updates
  • I'll lose my frigging mind

So, let's sum up.



The Alleged Mole
Nicholas Loman. Worked for MI6, fled the country, was shot fatally trying to cross the Hungary-Romania border in 1978.



Innocent: He was probably leaking some intel to the Securitate, but wasn't involved with Dracula. Asset: Former Duke of Edom, eliminated when Edom made a turn for the ruthless after another Dracula disaster. Minion: He was indeed the mole - or at least a mole.



The Anthropologist
Zarina Petran. Romanian ex-pat and activist for women's rights in post-Soviet Eastern Europe. Has done research on Inanna, Cybele, and Lilith. Asset: Edom contact, and secretly a big name in Lilith's cult. Minion: Dracula's recruiter for getting Lilith on his side.



The Balkans Specialist
Mabel Garrot. Romanian folklore/history/politics expert. Researcher at Cambridge, consulted during the '77 mole hunt. May have read some of the Dracula Dossier during her work with MI6. Asset: Kept tabs on Edom activities during the mole hunt, has an incredible memory. Minion: Was seduced by Dracula, became a double agent spying on MI6.





The CIA Agent
Kate Bewler. CIA contact in Bucharest who got caught up in the mole hunt, now working in London. Asset: Thinks Edom is a quaint old English operation, but wants their vampire assets for American ingelligence. Minion: Dracula relays his targets to Bewler, Bewler sends terror targets to MI6 from Station London, MI6 assigns the targets to Edom, Edom sends Dracula after the targets. Dracula runs himself.



"Cushing"
Lorna Bereford. Daughter of the Cushing who wrote all the green notes in the Dossier. Asset: She's on paycheck to keep tabs on anyone who comes after Cushing Senior for intel and report back to Edom. Minion: Unwitting pawn of The Master, using strange drugs to make the old Cushing more receptive to Dracula's will. She doesn't know why she does it, or that her father is slowly dying as a result.



The Defector
Andrei Aritonovici. Fled to the west in 1982, British Intelligence worried he was a double agent. Expert on Ceausescu-era Romanian intelligence, will talk for money. Asset: Helped identify the mole in 1997, is either a heroic defector (if the mole was found) or a suspected double agenet (if the mole wasn't found). Minion: The same, but his revelations about the mole were orchestrated by you know who.



The Hungarian
Vámbéry Ágost. Descendant of a friend of Van helsing, very wealthy. Constantly on the move. Source of information on Helsing's old intel. Asset: Runs networks in the Balkans for various Intelligence groups, has ended up in over his head and is trying to get out. Minion: Willingly provides info from Van Helsing's letters, but it's faked, further meetings will be an ambush.



The Informant
Name unknown, prefers to work digitally/remotely. "Abraham" is a coworker of "Hopkins", several steps behind her and looking for the Dossier. Asset: Worked under one of the 1977 mole hunt principal actors, is now working to clear their reputation. Minion: Doesn't exist - "Abraham" is a constructed identity to help the Conspiracy get their hands on the Dossier and then send its keepers into a deathtrap.

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Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
I can't help thinking of this, after reading that effigy cigar thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHLw2lyLnA8

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