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Really the most important part is that 8/8.1 was very halfassed in the interface department, and largely fixed in 10.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:49
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Avenida posted:Arguing over whether or not Windows 10 is inherently more secure than Windows 7 or 8 is kind of missing the point. Yep, and specifically they're making it so upgrading Windows 10 is much less painful than previous iterations (because it's just going to be "Windows 10" from here on out).
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Apr 17, 2016 00:10
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Avenida posted:Arguing over whether or not Windows 10 is inherently more secure than Windows 7 or 8 is kind of missing the point. I've said this to him twice and he doesn't seem to read it. Khablam posted:Also you're missing the point. It's not "for security" as much as "making several older versions of Windows secure is more costly than one". Also Arsten guy, citing a features checklist isn't really indicative of anything. You seem set on the here and now, and seem incapable of looking forward. It's not about solving issues today, it's about (and I don't specifically know how many times I need to say it...) going forward. Imagine if you will the year is 2021. You have two scenarios: 1) They just stuck Win10 out there and it gets Win8 like adoption rates 2) They do what they're doing now. In scenario 1 you're going to have a lot of people on 7 and 8. In scenario 2, you're going to have fewer people using them. Now imagine you're a malware author. In scenario 1 you have a decent chunk of machines that will be vulnerable for a decent period of time without security fixes. Some perhaps permanently so. In scenario 2 you have the overwhelming majority on an OS that auto-updates to close them in short order. For a logical comparison -- how many worms were released in 2015 that assume direct internet connections / no NAT to propagate? How does this compare to 2003? Arguing lowering your attack surface / duration is pointless because "if they wanted that they would force UAC" is just silly.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:34
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Khablam posted:Also Arsten guy, citing a features checklist isn't really indicative of anything. Khablam posted:Also you're missing the point. It's not "for security" as much as "making several older versions of Windows secure is more costly than one". Khablam posted:You seem set on the here and now, and seem incapable of looking forward. Khablam posted:Imagine if you will the year is 2021. Now that 10 dropped, businesses are vetting for upgrade. The 50 or 60% of the remaining users of Windows 7 which are businesses will be moving in the next two years or so making sure that they don't hit the 2020 update deadline. But, then, this free upgrade doesn't affect them, even if they were to abandon all common sense and upgrade right now. The remaining consumers after that point that are still on 7 will migrate slowly over, with very few percentage points remaining by 2020. This would have happened without the free consumer upgrade - but Microsoft needs you on 10 as quickly as possible for completely different reasons. Khablam posted:Arguing lowering your attack surface / duration is pointless because "if they wanted that they would force UAC" is just silly. If you aren't going to add anything to your argument, we might as well stop our circular thread making GBS threads. Have a beer, goon. Arsten fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 05:51
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This long back and forth kinda got my previous question lost in the middle of it. How can I import Outlook's email history from Windows 7 (on another drive) to Windows 10's default email program? I can, and probably will, change to a different email program but for now I'm just going to stick with this fancy thing that is stock Windows 10 software. Node fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 06:48
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Node posted:This long derail kinda got my previous question lost in the middle of it. How can I import Outlook's email history from Windows 7 (on another drive) to Windows 10's default email program? If it's IMAP you don't have to because it's stored serverside. If it's POP3 as far as I know you can't.
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Apr 17, 2016 06:53
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Node posted:This long derail kinda got my previous question lost in the middle of it. How can I import Outlook's email history from Windows 7 (on another drive) to Windows 10's default email program? Unfortunately, you can't via Windows/Microsoft tools. Mail doesn't support things like PSTs, so if you can connect to an IMAP server where you email is hosted you can access it that way, but downloaded messages won't be able to go from Outlook to Mail. Can you transfer the Outlook license to the new PC or is it stuck with the old PC? If it's stuck with the old PC, there is the option of MailStore Home, which you can use to import all of the old PC's Outlook mails to a portable archive that you can then move to the New PC and export to Mail.
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Apr 17, 2016 06:54
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Arsten posted:Unfortunately, you can't via Windows/Microsoft tools. Mail doesn't support things like PSTs, so if you can connect to an IMAP server where you email is hosted you can access it that way, but downloaded messages won't be able to go from Outlook to Mail. I have the old drive in the new PC. I just read about transferring licenses, and it kinda went over my head. But I suppose it is possible. Since it is, what do I do from there? Thank you both for your replies.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:02
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Node posted:I have the old drive in the new PC. I just read about transferring licenses, and it kinda went over my head. But I suppose it is possible. Since it is, what do I do from there? If the license is transferrable, toss the CD into the drive and use the CD Key and install Office to use Outlook directly (or, if it's a 365 install, login to your account and install from the stub file they provide on there), then copy over your data files, usually located in "My Documents\Outlook Files" for files you made yourself. You can then add them to your new Outlook via File -> Options -> Account Setings -> Data Files -> Add button. In general, Office is not transferrable if you bought it from an OEM (e.g. you bought it preinstalled with your Dell). Office is transferrable if you purchased it as a software box/download from a box store or a web dealer, or via Office 365 .
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Apr 17, 2016 07:10
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Arsten posted:If the license is transferrable, toss the CD into the drive and use the CD Key and install Office to use Outlook directly (or, if it's a 365 install, login to your account and install from the stub file they provide on there), then copy over your data files, usually located in "My Documents\Outlook Files" for files you made yourself. You can then add them to your new Outlook via File -> Options -> Account Setings -> Data Files -> Add button. I just had it installed with Windows. I guess it isn't worth the trouble. Thanks anyways. I'm surprised, I didn't know importing email would require so many hoops to jump through.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:12
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Node posted:I just had it installed with Windows. I guess it isn't worth the trouble. Thanks anyways. It's sad, but a lot of mail clients don't want you to be able to jump ship easily. I do still recommend MailStore Home. As long as you still have the Outlook data file (PST) around, it should be able to extract the emails for you and then turn around and push them into Mail or other formats, should you wish to change to another program in the future.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:17
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Avenida posted:Arguing over whether or not Windows 10 is inherently more secure than Windows 7 or 8 is kind of missing the point. Nah, I'm certain the main reason is to expose people to their new revenue stream; the Windows store. vv No, but I'm sure they're hoping it will be HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 09:12
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HalloKitty posted:Nah, I'm certain the main reason is to expose people to their new revenue stream; the Windows store. I don't think even Microsoft believes the Windows Store is nearly a profit center right now. ... Then again they're still under the delusion that "a million apps" matters, especially when 99.someodd% of apps are somewhere between worthless and malicious, when they should know that competing on quantity is dumb as hell. Imagine an app store that actually curated their apps, and not in the 'a person looked at (rubber-stamped) it what more do you want' sense. Maybe MS should try that. Really they have to already because Xbox, so it's more an expansion of existing protocols than an invention of new ones. dont be mean to me fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 09:16
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Arsten posted:When you talk about going forward you don't take the wild-assed guess approach, you look at where we are in the present day, how we got to where we are, and then extrapolate towards the future. You seem incapable of doing this and are assuming that it is already 2021 with all users of Windows 7 reliving the Windows XP Mad Max Thunderdome where they don't get security updates any more. No, the opposite. I'm imagining it's 2016 and MS are trying to ensure 2021 looks how they want it to for their company. Since you have to make changes now, to see them in the future. You can't keep doing the same thing (releasing every 2 years and adding to the problem) and then wishing you had started solving the problem in 2016, when you have more people dribbling into new versions based on new hardware purchases, with no significant bulk uptake of any version. It's literally a 5 year plan. I guess we just won't agree on seeing that the same way.
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Apr 17, 2016 14:03
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Khablam posted:No, the opposite. I'm imagining it's 2016 and MS are trying to ensure 2021 looks how they want it to for their company. Since you have to make changes now, to see them in the future. You can't keep doing the same thing (releasing every 2 years and adding to the problem) and then wishing you had started solving the problem in 2016, when you have more people dribbling into new versions based on new hardware purchases, with no significant bulk uptake of any version. Honestly, i think it's because you don't see XP as the aberration it was. The reason it stuck around for so long is because Microsoft fumbled the ball repeatedly (an entire OS dev cycle dropped, a second dev cycle resulting in a vastly different OS model in Vista). The reason that Windows 7 was adopted like a flood gate was because of pent up demand by business. After spending two to three years vetting and upgrading, they were not going to do the same for 8/8.1 (especially after all of the troubles that 8 had out of the gate) and were planning on moving to the next OS. Businesses are already vetting 10 and most of them will transition to 10 long before 2020. The consumers that are still on 7 will upgrade when their 4-6 year window hits (mainly when the dust builds up and their old PC catches on fire) will have used 10 at work and be comfortable enough that their next shitbox will come with it installed without them attempting a downgrade. The shift from 7 was going to happen organically, just like it did before XP. And all of this is because of the historical 2-year revision cycle - a cycle that isn't going away with 10, it's just changing shape. Heck, by the time that 10-2017's feature release rolls around, I expect businesses to make full use of the slow ring to slow down updates enough to review them (and, if the 6 months isn't enough time, I expect them to demand a "business" ring). The giant push by Microsoft is about Platform. They got badly beaten by mobile and their own efforts to combat the problem have failed repeatedly. Their current effort demands as many windows 10 devices capable of UWP as possible. As I noted, this is about where they want their company to be before even the Windows 7 update deadline comes in. Sir Unimaginative posted:I don't think even Microsoft believes the Windows Store is nearly a profit center right now. The "number of apps" thing seems to be because it's an internal metric that each company uses to gauge initial penetration of their store. Both iOS and Android touted those numbers at one point. iOS switched over to "downloads" for awhile and then both dropped the subject as a talking point.
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Apr 17, 2016 14:32
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Windows 10, in 2016: "This folder contains filenames that are too long for the Recycle Bin." Sure, okay. That seems like a reasonable thing to run into still.
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Apr 17, 2016 21:47
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That's really a file system thing.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:10
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Acer Pilot posted:That's really a file system thing. It's not a file system problem. Programs that want to can support paths a hundred times longer. Considering almost nothing needs to directly browse the recycle bin folders, there's no good reason for them to suffer a ~256 character limit.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:17
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Acer Pilot posted:That's really a file system thing. It's a Windows API limit: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365247(v=vs.85).aspx#maxpath The newer unicode-capable versions of the APIs support paths up to 32k characters in length but a lot of applications (and a lot of Windows itself) still use the old ones and will poo poo themselves over long paths.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:28
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Something I haven't been able to figure out yet with the Windows 10 upgrade for existing Windows 7/8 users: if you click that pop-up and download Windows 10 or whatever, do you have to install it and actually run the upgrade before the end of July to get it free? Or do you just have to download it for it to be free, then you can install it whenever you want? I kind of want to wait until mid-2017 to reduce the odds of missing drivers and other gently caress-ups, but I don't know if I'll lose the free upgrade if I don't install it by July 29. Or, alternatively, will clicking the notification box and downloading it auto-install it? Am I incorrectly assuming that this is a two-step process instead of a one-step process? A couple more Windows 10 questions: - Am I understanding the conversation correctly on this page that I'll lose my Office 2013 through the upgrade, because it was installed by Lenovo at the factory or whatever and not by me? - I currently use Chrome, Firefox, and Internet Explorer for various things. Chrome is my main work browser, IE is my back-up work browser for when Chrome doesn't work, and Firefox is my non-work browser. My understanding is that a new browser, Edge, is replacing IE. Will my bookmarks/history auto-transfer with Chrome/Firefox? And, will my IE stuff get auto-imported into Edge? Thank you! Edit: For reference, I'm on Windows 7 Home Premium. surf rock fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 03:48
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According to Microsoft, the free update period currently ends a year from Windows 10's first release. That being said, waiting til 2017 for drivers seems silly, if your devices run in 8.1 or 8 they should pretty much always run in 10, and if they don't have 8/8.1 drivers then using Windows 7 drivers usually still works. Also you can import IE stuff into Edge, but if you really want, IE is still there too.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:02
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Arsten posted:Honestly, i think it's because you don't see XP as the aberration it was. Couple the usual inertia to self-proclaimed experts and bloggers writing their 'why 7 is my OS forever <3' pieces and you have the complete recipe for it. You even have the same usual suspects of scaremongers with an audience warning their audience against it and writing lovely tools to prevent updates (comically doesn't disable backported telemetry it claims is the reason to stop the update). Do you think 10 would have better adoption than 8/8.1 if it wasn't being pushed this hard?
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Apr 18, 2016 09:36
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Khablam posted:I'm going to agree to disagree on this. Windows 7 has all the same hallmarks as XP as an OS that will go completely EOL with people still clammering to stay on it. Just look at the complete outrage here, and elsewhere, about MS offering them a free upgrade. Don't forget the part where tens of millions of computers (depending on which survey you pull up on Google, possibly a hundred million!) are still running XP. Even the most optimistic estimates, which show XP being about as used as Linux, still represent enough computers to DDoS actual important parts of the Internet. This IS Mad Max, and not the fun Thunderdome or movie Fury Road but the terminal-biosphere-decline despair-is-rational video game Fury Road. And the same driver issues, where poor-faith vendors are refusing to upgrade their existing five-six-figure CNC/medical/research equipment past 7 same as they did with XP to force new sales (speaking of climate and scarcity issues) and OEMs telling people not to upgrade usually because of something like being too lazy to support the new OS or knowing they screwed up bad when they picked parts for their big box specials.
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Apr 18, 2016 10:55
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If MS is so scared of people not adopting 10 you'd think they could make a UI that isn't the most half-assed frankenstein garbage out there, rivaling the QT/GTK mishmash of Linux 2005. Even if we ignore the ugliness of grey rectangle and random white space design, troubleshooting a VPN issue ping pongs me back and forth between the old Control panel and the new Settings app every other click. Some options overlap, others are only available in one or the other. I do want to start my desktop fresh with 10 but all trust that it would be a smooth process was blown away when I fired up this VM and 8 months in they're obviously not halfway finished.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:00
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I read somewhere that you can't turn off automatic updates in the Windows 10 non-premium version, is that true? I work on a ship and our internet connection will slow to a crawl once everybody gets it.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:04
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Per posted:I read somewhere that you can't turn off automatic updates in the Windows 10 non-premium version, is that true? I work on a ship and our internet connection will slow to a crawl once everybody gets it. You can tell it your connection is metered, and it won't download them. It'll also do a P2P thing over LAN for updates if you allow it to.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:16
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So even after I fully canceled the upgrade, Windows is pretending nothing happened and is giving the same pop-ups asking "when do you want to upgrade?". What gives?
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Apr 18, 2016 15:09
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surf rock posted:Something I haven't been able to figure out yet with the Windows 10 upgrade for existing Windows 7/8 users: if you click that pop-up and download Windows 10 or whatever, do you have to install it and actually run the upgrade before the end of July to get it free? Or do you just have to download it for it to be free, then you can install it whenever you want? I kind of want to wait until mid-2017 to reduce the odds of missing drivers and other gently caress-ups, but I don't know if I'll lose the free upgrade if I don't install it by July 29. Just upgrading yourself to a new windows version does not invalidate your license to use it on the hardware it was purchased on. You can move from 7 to 10 (or to Linux) and still run that software on that hardware. surf rock posted:- I currently use Chrome, Firefox, and Internet Explorer for various things. Chrome is my main work browser, IE is my back-up work browser for when Chrome doesn't work, and Firefox is my non-work browser. My understanding is that a new browser, Edge, is replacing IE. Will my bookmarks/history auto-transfer with Chrome/Firefox? And, will my IE stuff get auto-imported into Edge? Are you backing up your Chrome/Firefox bookmarks and configurations through their sync features? You should sign up for and utilize those just in case. Khablam posted:I'm going to agree to disagree on this. Windows 7 has all the same hallmarks as XP as an OS that will go completely EOL with people still clammering to stay on it. Just look at the complete outrage here, and elsewhere, about MS offering them a free upgrade. And 7 really doesn't have any of those. Remember that the anchor that kept XP around so long was two-fold: multiple fuckups that culminated in 7 (which is mirrored in multiple fuckups that culminated in 10 - Microsoft is really good at screwing themselves via development) and businesses (who are already planning to upgrade). Once people use 10 at work and learn its quircks, they aren't going to care about the static people give it. This has always been the case. Just look at XP and all of the people swearing to use Windows 2000 until the end of time. Most of those people went over to XP because business adoption allowed them to use it and go "Meh. It's not really a big deal." Khablam posted:Do you think 10 would have better adoption than 8/8.1 if it wasn't being pushed this hard?
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Apr 18, 2016 15:38
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An Angry Bug posted:So even after I fully canceled the upgrade, Windows is pretending nothing happened and is giving the same pop-ups asking "when do you want to upgrade?". What gives? It will nag you forever and it will download the installation files in the background. According to many, it will randomly startup a countdown you have to stop or it will begin installation.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:41
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The primary reason XP was an aberration is that the original plan was to have its successor, which became Vista, in 2004, 3 years after launch, the normal Windows cycle. Instead Microsoft dedicated a ton of effort to XP SP2, which while patching up a bunch of problems, delayed Vista work heavily, which is why it only came out in 2006.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:44
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fishmech posted:The primary reason XP was an aberration is that the original plan was to have its successor, which became Vista, in 2004, 3 years after launch, the normal Windows cycle. Instead Microsoft dedicated a ton of effort to XP SP2, which while patching up a bunch of problems, delayed Vista work heavily, which is why it only came out in 2006. True, but that came about because they had to restart Vista development in the middle of the normal cycle, which is the whole reason they slowed Vista development for XP SP2. XP pre-SP2 was really a Windows 98-style "Securi-wha?" type of system. SP2 was supposed to cork some holes in a sinking ship.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:00
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An Angry Bug posted:So even after I fully canceled the upgrade, Windows is pretending nothing happened and is giving the same pop-ups asking "when do you want to upgrade?". What gives? Free will is but an illusion.
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Apr 18, 2016 17:42
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Double post 
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Apr 18, 2016 17:42
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Arsten posted:People clamor to stay on every other system, though. I see all the same hallmarks of 7 being an OS people want to ride to EOL in the same way they did 7; to these people 7 is their new XP. No need to take my word for this either, tracking adoption rates pretty much shows this - 8 lost a huge chunk of it's userbase immediately on 10's release, whilst 7 shed some but kept the largest install-base still.  If people are more willing to drop the newer OS, than the older one, that's highly indicative of the attachment people have for their system.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:21
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Khablam posted:But they don't. People have upgraded from 8 PDQ but haven't from 7, in much the same way people upgraded from Vista to 7 but not as rapidly from XP. My error, "Every other" was referring to "Every other version of windows" e.g. XP -> 7 ->10. The only reason XP shifted to 7 so quick was a huge pent-up demand after having no "good" new system to update to in nine years - both consumer and business. This is not the normal pattern for new Windows OSs. About a year to a year and a half in on 2000, businesses shifted from NT4. Those that were on 9x shifted to Windows XP about six months after release, followed about one to two years later by the businesses that were on 2000. Had the dev cycle not been screwed, it would have gone like this: 2000 -> Vista -> 8 with the other 9x -> XP -> 7 -> 10 (assuming all of the releases were the normal 2-2.5 year release cycles that Windows followed until XP and has resumed Vista+) Had those two business cycles not converged on XP, the update of 7 would not have been like it was. Like I've noted repeatedly: Business is on 7. It will shift en masse and deflate that 7 number significantly. Business is also who this free upgrade doesn't touch, which means, if this is about an outlook on security, they are ignoring the biggest group of users that will stay the longest on 7.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:55
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Arsten posted:Like I've noted repeatedly: Business is on 7. It will shift en masse and deflate that 7 number significantly. This still isn't true, though. Adoption of 10 enterprise has been very strong so far and lots are gearing to switch this year. MS have been touting the business user migration in particular in their stats (something like 20-25% of business users in large companies began migration in the first 10 weeks). I think it's very clear MS want people onto their one-OS-forever track ASAP, and I assume you agree with that. I definitely think the motivation is to stop there being more "Vistas, MEs and 8s" in the future; OSes with fringe userbases that MS have to back-port all their fixes to because of their extreme support lengths. I guess that's where you disagree.
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Apr 18, 2016 21:14
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Fiskiggy posted:If MS is so scared of people not adopting 10 you'd think they could make a UI that isn't the most half-assed frankenstein garbage out there, rivaling the QT/GTK mishmash of Linux 2005. I genuinely like the new startmenu, it basically replaced desktop shortcuts for me.
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Apr 18, 2016 21:27
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Still waiting for an update that allows me to arrange icons by penis 
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Apr 18, 2016 21:28
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:Still waiting for an update that allows me to arrange icons by penis
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Apr 18, 2016 21:59
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Khablam posted:This still isn't true, though. Adoption of 10 enterprise has been very strong so far and lots are gearing to switch this year. MS have been touting the business user migration in particular in their stats (something like 20-25% of business users in large companies began migration in the first 10 weeks). Except that they aren't back porting all that much. Many to most of the security patches that are released are extremely similar between 7, 8, and 10. Core system components are fairly harmonious. Additionally, they are on the hook for "back ports" until 2020 for 7 and 2023 for 8 no matter what. After those points, they offer no more support. What's more, they have a system split into 3 update rings: Insider, Fast, and Slow. Critical updates hit all three at the same time. So they obviously have a version control method, like every good dev shop ever, that can merge changes across branches. So what, exactly, are they saving themselves from in the security regard by switching people today? All-but nothing. Now, what are they gaining? UWP leverage to increase their penetration into mobile, especially Enterprise mobile. Leverage into the x86 tablet space. Leverage from people and especially business jumping ship to Mac or Linux. Positioning for greater adoption of their cloud services, consumer and business. if this upgrade push was happening in 2019, I'd agree it was a frantic dash to get people off of a system that was about to expire. But the efforts, today, are for money. That there may be some effect on security in four years may be icing, but it's certainly not the point of the effort.
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Apr 18, 2016 22:42
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