Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


Yeah I got curious how the chiclets like that work and there's a bit of conductive substance on the back of the button that touches the PCB and completes the circuit and holy lol is that one of the worst ways to design a switch I can think of

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009

Well that's pretty much how all keyboards except microswitch ones work. The difference is just in how you press the conductive layers together.

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


Well yeah moving a conductor into place is the basic premise of all switches, but just coating the back of a bit of rubber and making the user mash on it until it deforms enough to push the conductor in the right place is what I meant.

GOTTA STAY FAI
Mar 24, 2005

~no glitter in the gutter~
~no twilight galaxy~
College Slice

Cat Hatter posted:

If you still have a CRT in your house, the Dreamcast has a pretty good light gun that's actually a light gun.

I found that thing to be more accurate than even arcade light guns. Shame it was wasted on the Dreamcast, though.

If you bought certain off-brand versions of it, you ran the risk of burning up the totally-not-intentionally-breaking-your-console-to-punish-you-for-using-3rd-party-peripherals resistor. Thankfully, you could fix that permanently in under a minute with a Philips head and a gum wrapper :laugh:

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

KozmoNaut posted:

I've been using a keyboard with laptop-style scissor keys for around a decade, and I'm not likely to go back to a standard keyboard anytime soon. Having a completely flat, thin keyboard (or even one that is slightly tilted forwards) is superior for ergonomics.

Scissor keys are the answer. I used to have Model M's and mechanical keyboards, but everything has slowly transitioned to scissor style mechanics.

Trackballs though, those are the old obsolete tech you'll have to pry from my cold, dead, ergonomically correct wrist position.

Vic
Nov 26, 2009

malae fidei cum XI_XXVI_MMIX

Krispy Kareem posted:

Scissor keys are the answer. I used to have Model M's and mechanical keyboards, but everything has slowly transitioned to scissor style mechanics.

They break too easy if you're trying to replace the key cap while cleaning the keyboard. Those tiny nubs aren't ready for goonhandling.

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

~🚚special delivery~📦

Shugojin posted:

Well yeah moving a conductor into place is the basic premise of all switches, but just coating the back of a bit of rubber and making the user mash on it until it deforms enough to push the conductor in the right place is what I meant.

This is basically how every video game controller ever works.

The Atari joystick actually has a worse design though: http://www.vintagegamingandmore.com/atari-joystick-repair/

Each contact point has a small metal dome on top of it, and the buttons/joystick squish that down to make contact.

I love the PCB design of these things though. It looks like someone free handed the etchings.

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009

The TAC-2 had the worst button design ever. The joystick itself was pretty much indestructible, but the buttons would start to act up because it was basically just a metal washer getting pushed down against two small contact points, and you just needed little bit of corrosion on the contact points to make it respond poorly.


Click for source.

Lurking Haro
Oct 27, 2009

Dewgy posted:

This is basically how every video game controller ever works.

The Atari joystick actually has a worse design though: http://www.vintagegamingandmore.com/atari-joystick-repair/

Each contact point has a small metal dome on top of it, and the buttons/joystick squish that down to make contact.

I love the PCB design of these things though. It looks like someone free handed the etchings.

Now imagine this concept not depending on metal domes, but the elasticity of the flex PCB.
Just two flex PCBs seperated by a spacer with holes in it.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

Vic posted:

They break too easy if you're trying to replace the key cap while cleaning the keyboard. Those tiny nubs aren't ready for goonhandling.

Silly Vic, goons don't clean keyboards.

Karasu Tengu
Feb 16, 2011

Humble Tengu Newspaper Reporter

Dewgy posted:

This is basically how every video game controller ever works.

The Atari joystick actually has a worse design though: http://www.vintagegamingandmore.com/atari-joystick-repair/

Each contact point has a small metal dome on top of it, and the buttons/joystick squish that down to make contact.

I love the PCB design of these things though. It looks like someone free handed the etchings.

I mean, those dome switches are more or less the non-micro version of a microswitch.

VERY COOL MAN
Jun 24, 2011

THESE PACKETS ARE... SUMMARILY DEALT WITH

Krispy Kareem posted:

Silly Vic, goons don't clean keyboards.

one did

El Estrago Bonito
Dec 17, 2010

Scout Finch Bitch
I don't understand how people who are writers or programmers use poo poo like the Mac keyboards. I can't stand how flat they are, the curvature of normal keys really helps me when I am typing really fast or for long periods of time.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



El Estrago Bonito posted:

I don't understand how people who are writers or programmers use poo poo like the Mac keyboards. I can't stand how flat they are, the curvature of normal keys really helps me when I am typing really fast or for long periods of time.

I guess we get used to it? I've never had a problem with the keyboard on my rMBP*, and I do tons of post mortem reports and write fairly large python scripts with it. I'm probably typing in way or another for 60-70% of my day. Never had an issue. The only other kinds of keyboards I'm super comfortable with are the Logitech K810/811 and some mechanicals. Everything else is too mushy and feels weird to me.

* I haven't used the new style that's on the latest MacBook for any length of time. From the demo unit I played with, I think I'd be pretty unhappy with it.

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

The quietness and the low profile are why I use one for work. It's no less comfortable then the average rubber dome Lenovo special.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Pilsner posted:

Gotta be arrogant here, but there is no good reason to prefer a flat/chiclet keyboard unless space is a concern (such as being on-the-go or in a laptop). A chiclet keyboard at a desktop computer just doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to be a Model M style clicky, but just full height keys.

And now I probably just described the type you hate.

Naw, the conversation on facebook went like this

Hey my office got me a mac for home so I can work on stuff when I'm not there.
Wow that sucks, they come with lovely keyboards
It's not too bad.
But they're bad for gaming!
This isn't a gaming computer

So I don't think you're in the same ballpark.

And keyboard talk reminds me of the weird ergonomic keyboards from the mid 90s, like the Split keyboards, or even the weird iGrip. There were some prototypes I saw in magazines back then that was a sphere. They still make them, but I haven't seen anyone using once since the mid 2000s.

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010



twistedmentat posted:

Naw, the conversation on facebook went like this

Hey my office got me a mac for home so I can work on stuff when I'm not there.
Wow that sucks, they come with lovely keyboards
It's not too bad.
But they're bad for gaming!
This isn't a gaming computer

So I don't think you're in the same ballpark.

And keyboard talk reminds me of the weird ergonomic keyboards from the mid 90s, like the Split keyboards, or even the weird iGrip. There were some prototypes I saw in magazines back then that was a sphere. They still make them, but I haven't seen anyone using once since the mid 2000s.

I use one of these at work:



Before I switched, I'd have pain every day up both arms, from the hand all the way up through the shoulder. I don't get that anymore.

Space Kablooey
May 6, 2009


Pham Nuwen posted:

I use one of these at work:



Before I switched, I'd have pain every day up both arms, from the hand all the way up through the shoulder. I don't get that anymore.

I want one of those so bad, but IIRC they were horribly expensive and I need a different key layout. Also no numpad. :(

Nutsngum
Oct 9, 2004

I don't think it's nice, you laughing.

Pham Nuwen posted:

I use one of these at work:



Before I switched, I'd have pain every day up both arms, from the hand all the way up through the shoulder. I don't get that anymore.

Some weird part of my brain really wants to try this.

pienipple
Mar 20, 2009

That's wrong!
It takes a while to adjust but a split layout can be really good if you have rsi issues.

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010



HardDisk posted:

I want one of those so bad, but IIRC they were horribly expensive and I need a different key layout. Also no numpad. :(

I think it was $200, but of course work paid for it. Depending on what key layout you need, you could just change it in the OS and deal with it... you should only need one of these if you're a touch-typer anyway, and in that case who cares what the key caps say?

If you need a numpad, spend $15 on a USB one. The keyboard has two USB ports on the back so you can plug in your numpad and your mouse.


Nutsngum posted:

Some weird part of my brain really wants to try this.

The first few days were a challenge. I was typing pretty quickly and confidently after a week or so. I now type as fast on the Kinesis as I do on regular keyboards, and I switch between that, a Thinkpad, a Surface Pro 3 keyboard, and a Sun Type 6 keyboard with very little trouble.

You can't use it for gaming, though, so if you put it on your home computer you'll need another keyboard handy for playing vidja gaems.

Lowen SoDium
Jun 5, 2003

Highen Fiber
Clapping Larry

Pham Nuwen posted:

I use one of these at work:



Before I switched, I'd have pain every day up both arms, from the hand all the way up through the shoulder. I don't get that anymore.

Psshh... You call that ergonomic?

How about the Safe Type Keyboard?





Or the Data Hands Keyboard?

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010



Lowen SoDium posted:

Psshh... You call that ergonomic?

How about the Safe Type Keyboard?





Or the Data Hands Keyboard?



Well, I do have one of these:



The Twiddler 3, aka Sex Toy Keyboard. 4 rows of 3 buttons on the front, press them in different combinations to type all the letters and punctuation. You may notice from the picture that the manufacturers did the stupidest possible default layout: Start with A in the upper right, then just do the whole alphabet top to bottom right to left. Luckily it's completely re-programmable and you can't see the keycaps while using it anyway.

There's a little joystick sorta thing on the top that can act as a mouse, along with shift, alt, ctrl, and numlock keys just below it.

I don't get much opportunity to practice but with a good layout, it's pretty comfortable to hit the key combinations. The default layout has you do some funky loving contortions just to type the letter "i", though.

It can do Bluetooth or act as a USB keyboard if you plug it in. Cost waaaay too loving much ($200) for a toy, but it's still pretty drat cool.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Lowen SoDium posted:

Psshh... You call that ergonomic?

How about the Safe Type Keyboard?





Or the Data Hands Keyboard?



Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Lowen SoDium posted:

Or the Data Hands Keyboard?



I'd love to see how fast someone can get on one of those. It seems that you only need small twitches of the fingers and could get insanely fast speeds for someone skilled.

Never want to use it myself, however.

Lowen SoDium
Jun 5, 2003

Highen Fiber
Clapping Larry

Pham Nuwen posted:

Well, I do have one of these:



The Twiddler 3, aka Sex Toy Keyboard. 4 rows of 3 buttons on the front, press them in different combinations to type all the letters and punctuation. You may notice from the picture that the manufacturers did the stupidest possible default layout: Start with A in the upper right, then just do the whole alphabet top to bottom right to left. Luckily it's completely re-programmable and you can't see the keycaps while using it anyway.

There's a little joystick sorta thing on the top that can act as a mouse, along with shift, alt, ctrl, and numlock keys just below it.

I don't get much opportunity to practice but with a good layout, it's pretty comfortable to hit the key combinations. The default layout has you do some funky loving contortions just to type the letter "i", though.

It can do Bluetooth or act as a USB keyboard if you plug it in. Cost waaaay too loving much ($200) for a toy, but it's still pretty drat cool.

That reminds me of something I saw on PBS when I was a kid in the 80's.

There was this guy named Steven K. Roberts. Called himself a Technomad.



Steven road around the US on a custom made recumbent bicycles. He had several of these in the 80's and early 90's.















He had this bikes outfitted with computers, displays, and some input buttons on the handle bar grips that functioned very similar to the keyboard that you just posted, but I can't find any picture of it.


edit:No sooner did I post this, than I found pictures of his keyboard. Fewer buttons than the one that you posted, but it's a similar concept.


Lowen SoDium has a new favorite as of 22:32 on Apr 18, 2016

Flipperwaldt
Nov 11, 2011

Won't somebody think of the starving hamsters in China?



There's no limit.

Prenton
Feb 17, 2011

Ner nerr-nerrr ner
Erk, that dredged out a very vague memory of this thing. Mmmm, check out that stylish leather, or more probably "leather", carry case:

Mister Kingdom
Dec 14, 2005

And the tears that fall
On the city wall
Will fade away
With the rays of morning light
Dug this out of a box today:



It did a pretty good job and it still works, although the skip protection isn't as good as it was.

E: The skip protection works if I turn it on. D'oh!


EXPANIUM!

Mister Kingdom has a new favorite as of 00:40 on Apr 19, 2016

Trabant
Nov 26, 2011

All systems nominal.

Flipperwaldt posted:

There's no limit.

Wow :laffo:

DicktheCat
Feb 15, 2011

Prenton posted:

Erk, that dredged out a very vague memory of this thing. Mmmm, check out that stylish leather, or more probably "leather", carry case:



I can't even fathom how this works. Combinations of keys for letters like that Twiddler thing? E: yes, it does work like the Twiddler.




Also, someone please help me, because I'm on the edge of thinking that bike is kind of neat. Oh no, I said neat. There's no hope for me guys, just leave me here to wallow in nerdery forever.

DicktheCat has a new favorite as of 01:33 on Apr 19, 2016

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

El Estrago Bonito posted:

I don't understand how people who are writers or programmers use poo poo like the Mac keyboards. I can't stand how flat they are, the curvature of normal keys really helps me when I am typing really fast or for long periods of time.

Honestly the keyboards aren't the problem. It's how Macs default on poo poo like HOME and END. Hit END and you don't go to the end of the line, you go to the bottom the document. Not your cursor, just your view.

And I know you can change it in the command line, but it's annoying when you're using a full sized keyboard.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Krispy Kareem posted:

Honestly the keyboards aren't the problem. It's how Macs default on poo poo like HOME and END. Hit END and you don't go to the end of the line, you go to the bottom the document. Not your cursor, just your view.

And I know you can change it in the command line, but it's annoying when you're using a full sized keyboard.

You can just use cmd+left or right to go to the beginning or end of a line. It's even easier than reaching over to Home or End.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

Arivia posted:

You can just use cmd+left or right to go to the beginning or end of a line. It's even easier than reaching over to Home or End.

Two key presses instead of one. Steve Jobs said you only need one button.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Krispy Kareem posted:

Two key presses instead of one. Steve Jobs said you only need one button.

That's one key press including a modifier key. Come on, you're a programmer, you should know that.

Karasu Tengu
Feb 16, 2011

Humble Tengu Newspaper Reporter

flosofl posted:

* I haven't used the new style that's on the latest MacBook for any length of time. From the demo unit I played with, I think I'd be pretty unhappy with it.

To bring this full circle, I played with a demo unit of the new Macbook today and i'm pretty sure the ZX spectrum is more enjoyable to type on.

Sentient Data
Aug 31, 2011

My molecule scrambler ray will disintegrate your armor with one blow!
I wish I never sold my Fingerworks Touchstream
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231915813228



Apple bought out the company secretly one day and sales of their stuff completely ground to a halt. Their tech and patents are what the entire multitouch/gesture paradigm (I can't believe I actually used that word, but it's the one that best fits) is based upon. Back when it was directly through Fingerworks the company actually trusted the user to be smart, so the gestures and customization were amazing. You could set up taps, rotation, movement, pinching/growing with any number of fingers and set them each to mean anything. It was so cool to be able to do your mouse movement with two fingers, then, say, switch to touching with your thumb and middle and ring finger then give a short clockwise twist to paste what's in the clipboard. Sounds a little convoluted, but it was just so natural and fast

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Elliotw2 posted:

To bring this full circle, I played with a demo unit of the new Macbook today and i'm pretty sure the ZX spectrum is more enjoyable to type on.

DId Apple finally release the Wheel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

Karasu Tengu
Feb 16, 2011

Humble Tengu Newspaper Reporter
It's too thin for normal keys, so it's basically a chiclet keyboard like those awful washable or rollable keyboards. Straight up zero travel on any of the keys.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Keiya
Aug 22, 2009

Come with me if you want to not die.
Better than a touchscreen. Not by much, but still better.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply