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Echophonic
Sep 16, 2005

ha;lp
Gun Saliva
Also killing people puts them out of the reach of his punishment. He gets really bent out of shape when the shooter dies in the first episode and says as much.

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Boo This Man
Mar 25, 2008

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

Oh, man. Between name dropping Mike Carey and Malcolm actually becoming a likable character, I am SO glad this got a season 2.

I hope that Neil Gaimon is brought in to help write and give the show direction. I would want to see Constatine and the Endless introduced.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

The goat thing just being a huge troll on Lucifer that irritates the poo poo out of him is a great gag.

This was the first episode where they really got into who Lucifer is versus the way he's portrayed by "propaganda" and it was also the best episode. The show's been a lot stronger in the second half and if they nail the finale, then I'll be optimistic. I know this is a bit facile but this show reminds me a lot of Sleepy Hollow in that it's an extremely high concept show getting by on a charismatic male lead not-cop and his stern and down to earth female cop partner and they have really good chemistry and together they solve crimes and deal with supernatural things and boy did that show crap the bed after s1.

Harry
Jun 13, 2003

I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

Oh, man. Between name dropping Mike Carey and Malcolm actually becoming a likable character, I am SO glad this got a season 2.

Malcom has grown on me. At first I was worried about the whole crooked cop subplot being super boring, but they've basically shelved it to the point where it's almost like "no harm no foul". "Just like old times. Don't shoot me though lol"

Medullah
Aug 14, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Boo This Man posted:

I hope that Neil Gaiman is brought in to help write and give the show direction. I would want to see Constatine and the Endless introduced.

Please no. They decided to ignore the source material and somehow made a good product. Trying to incorporate the source material back in will lead to disaster.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

Yeah, I was wondering what good the coin would do if he dies. Great, he comes back from hell, but what does that do for him? Does he become immortal?

Judging by Amenadiel's reaction to the coin, it's not going to help Malcolm out at all. He was confused by the coin and then pissed that Malcolm knows angels can't kill mortals.

Also it's entirely reasonable that a few relativistic years in hell would drive you cuckoo.

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.
I assumed Amenadiel had something to do with Malcolm's decision to proudly present Lucifer with a fresh kill like a god drat cat.

I'm really curious to see how that dude ended up behind Lucifer's bar with a bullet in his skull without him noticing. Obviously Amenadiel could slow time and plant the body there, but he's the only person literally incapable of shooting the guy. Plus wouldn't even a time slowed bullet make a lot of noise? Or is there something really obvious that I'm missing?

AbsolutelySane
Jul 2, 2012

counterfeitsaint posted:

I assumed Amenadiel had something to do with Malcolm's decision to proudly present Lucifer with a fresh kill like a god drat cat.

I'm really curious to see how that dude ended up behind Lucifer's bar with a bullet in his skull without him noticing. Obviously Amenadiel could slow time and plant the body there, but he's the only person literally incapable of shooting the guy. Plus wouldn't even a time slowed bullet make a lot of noise? Or is there something really obvious that I'm missing?

Malcolm probably shot the guy while Lucifer and Amenadiel were fighting. No one heard it because they were busy smashing up the penthouse and making a poo poo ton of noise. Lucifer didn't notice the body when he came down because he was wrapped up in his own bullshit, as Lucifer is inclined to do.

EricFate
Aug 31, 2001

Crumpets. Glorious Crumpets.

Medullah posted:

I groaned a bit when they brought out the Maz "daggers that can hurt Lucifer and Amenadiel" bit, that's getting a bit TOO close to Supernatural territory. :(

I didn't get the impression that she was going to try and end Amenadiel. I figured she was going to make an attempt at cutting off his wings.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy
The case against Lucifer is going to fail real fast when they test him for gunshot residue.

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"

TMMadman posted:

The case against Lucifer is going to fail real fast when they test him for gunshot residue.

The gunshot residue test will fail, yes.

But the Devil residue test will come back positive!

Titan
Jan 14, 2002
The one thing I don't understand is why he doesn't reveal to Chloe that he is really Lucifer via his eye shift.

I understand why he didn't let her see it this episode because he was suspicious of her and was playing things close to the chest, but why not before then?

ShakeZula
Jun 17, 2003

Nobody move and nobody gets hurt.

Titan posted:

The one thing I don't understand is why he doesn't reveal to Chloe that he is really Lucifer via his eye shift.

I understand why he didn't let her see it this episode because he was suspicious of her and was playing things close to the chest, but why not before then?

Everybody he does that to runs screaming, and sometimes they're also driven insane by it. He wants her to believe him, but he honestly doesn't seem all that bothered by her skepticism, and I doubt it's worth the risk of driving her away for good.

Remember, the one time she caught a glimpse of his devil eyes in a reflection she immediately pulled her gun on him and looked terrified.

Astrofig
Oct 26, 2009

Gonz posted:

The gunshot residue test will fail, yes.

But the Devil residue test will come back positive!

Brimstone!

Medullah
Aug 14, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Astrofig posted:

Brimstone!

Oh man, now I want a lineup scene where Lucifer is standing with Ray Wise, John Glover, and Mark Pellegrino. Hell, throw Peter Stormare in there too.

Titan
Jan 14, 2002

Medullah posted:

Oh man, now I want a lineup scene where Lucifer is standing with Ray Wise, John Glover, and Mark Pellegrino. Hell, throw Peter Stormare in there too.

That would be so awesome. Supernatural already poked some fun at this show so a little poke back would be awesome.

Next episode looks great and it looks like it might set up what season 2 is about. Plus we actually get to see what happens when the devil abandons hell damned souls and demons can escape

ShakeZula posted:

Everybody he does that to runs screaming, and sometimes they're also driven insane by it. He wants her to believe him, but he honestly doesn't seem all that bothered by her skepticism, and I doubt it's worth the risk of driving her away for good.

Remember, the one time she caught a glimpse of his devil eyes in a reflection she immediately pulled her gun on him and looked terrified.

That's a good point. So far the show hasn't really given us a way for Lucifer to prove he's the devil, without causing a problem. Him changing forms drives people insane (except for Malcolm but that dude spent years in Hell), he can't show his wings, he's not invulnerable around her, and Amenadiel wouldn't show his wings just to help Lucifer out. He maybe could have levitated his coin in front of her or some other object. It just strikes me as odd because all season he's been indignant at people having the wrong idea about him. I would think someone humoring him would get on his nerves.

Maybe you're right and Chloe just doesn't care either way and that is interesting/funny to Luci.

Another edit: Tom Ellis was on @midnight last night and he was pretty funny.

Titan fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Apr 21, 2016

VendaGoat
Nov 1, 2005

Gonz posted:

"You're supposed to be blonde."

"Yeah, I get that a lot."

I laughed myself sick to this. Greatest joke of the series yet.

Titan posted:

I agree too. Lucifer is all about dealing out justice. Death doesn't fit his idea of what justice should be. Like in the pilot with that producer, he could have killed him after he shot Chloe but instead decided to punish him by showing his true form and whatever else he did to make the guy go insane.

Exactly. He's the angel of retribution, of bringing light to the darkest recesses of human misbehavior. Of a guiding path in an oblique perspective. And while he may hate his job, he's the best there is at it, and he knows it.

zoux posted:

The goat thing just being a huge troll on Lucifer that irritates the poo poo out of him is a great gag.

:devil:



I wait with bated breath for the finale.

Between this and Married with Children, I can not choose for a "Best of network" Fox Show.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

Gyges posted:

Having been in hell, I'm pretty sure he'll be genuinely contrite. I'm not suggesting he just enter into a constant cycle of sinning an confession, rather that he get any lingering sin desires out of the way and then devote himself to not going to Hell. Angels don't get to over rule Jesus on whether or not you're on the guest list.

Does Jesus even exist in the shows mythology?

AbsolutelySane posted:

I kind of like the idea that God is just screwing with Lucifer in some Rube Goldberg attempt to teach him a lesson, or for a laugh, or both.

I felt like they almost lamp shaded this when Lucifer was complaining that all he wanted was to be his own person and be judged on his own merits while pining that the Detective had made him mortal which would seem to be a pretty direct answer to his prayers.

Even if that's not true, its a virtual certainty that Dad is highly amused by his Son's antics.

Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 21, 2016

Eddain
May 6, 2007

Blind Melon posted:

Does Jesus even exist in the shows mythology?


I felt like they almost lamp shaded this when Lucifer was complaining that all he wanted was to be his own person and be judged on his own merits while pining that the Detective had made him mortal which would seem to be a pretty direct answer to his prayers.

Even if that's not true, its a virtual certainty that Dad is highly amused by his Son's antics.

It was Jesus. Jesus escaped Hell.

VendaGoat
Nov 1, 2005

Blind Melon posted:

Does Jesus even exist in the shows mythology?

Dad is highly amused by his Son's antics.

To the first sentence.

Does it really matter?

To the second. Oh you better loving believe it.

Eddain posted:

It was Jesus. Jesus escaped Hell.

There is.....

There is another way, but, yes.

odiv
Jan 12, 2003

Who the hell is looking after Trixie?

I mean seriously.

VendaGoat
Nov 1, 2005

odiv posted:

Who the hell is looking after Trixie?

I mean seriously.

Considering the young lass is blackmailing her father and extorting the, literal, devil?

I think she's more than capable of taking care of herself.

Echophonic
Sep 16, 2005

ha;lp
Gun Saliva

VendaGoat posted:

Considering the young lass is blackmailing her father and extorting the, literal, devil?

I think she's more than capable of taking care of herself.

She also knows how to kick people in their no-no place.

Tom Clancy is Dead
Jul 13, 2011

Plus she can Uber if she needs to get anywhere.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!
My daughters are enthralled by this show, it's genius. The suave male lead to crush on and the tough and independent female lead that young girls want to identify with. I'm alternately bored by the buddy cop storyline but amused by the 'God has a plan for everyone and even Lucifer can find forgiveness and redemption' storyline. And Lucifer with his daddy issues, nostalgic moments with Amenadiel, and the psychiatrist that is just too convenient. I would have stopped watching about halfway through S1 but I'm glad I kept at it.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP
I really like the idea of Lucifer being a punisher of evil, not evil himself. I don't think I've seen that interpretation before.

Also, he really emphasizes the rebellious streak. Someone like (eg) Supernatural's Lucifer seems pretty resigned to the Apocalypse narrative, and his rebellion is in a very orderly way ("there must be a villain").

Tom Clancy is Dead
Jul 13, 2011

I agree.

It's only possible because they are coming from a perspective of modern morality and separate sin from evil. Which I appreciate.

Titan
Jan 14, 2002

Blind Melon posted:

Does Jesus even exist in the shows mythology?


I felt like they almost lamp shaded this when Lucifer was complaining that all he wanted was to be his own person and be judged on his own merits while pining that the Detective had made him mortal which would seem to be a pretty direct answer to his prayers.

Even if that's not true, its a virtual certainty that Dad is highly amused by his Son's antics.

I don't think any shows based on the Judeo -Christian beliefs ever bring up Jesus.

computer parts posted:

I really like the idea of Lucifer being a punisher of evil, not evil himself. I don't think I've seen that interpretation before.

Also, he really emphasizes the rebellious streak. Someone like (eg) Supernatural's Lucifer seems pretty resigned to the Apocalypse narrative, and his rebellion is in a very orderly way ("there must be a villain").

Supernaturals Lucifer rebelled because he hated humanity with every fiber of his being. He wanted to kill them all because he saw them as ruining Creation.

Lucifer rebelled (in this series anyway) as a giant 'gently caress you Dad, I want to do what I want to do, not what you have planned for me". His arc this season seems to be him slowly realizing that he isn't being punished and, as you said, is the villain because someone has to be and he is (was?) Gods favorite and the most competent Angel for the job. He still hates that it isn't on his terms thought. Earlier in the season he commented that while God was making him torture souls in Hell he hated it but he loves dealing punishment out now since it's on his own terms.

Titan fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Apr 21, 2016

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer
I assumed that Malcolm had already killed him and put him there before Lucifer got home. Lucifer's "why are you in my house?" was hinting at this. He was probably planning to tell the cops that he shot the preacher in self defense. Lucifer flipping out at him and Amenadiel showing up caused him to bail instead.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005


Neil Gaiman wrote a short story ("Murder Mysteries") about what caused Lucifer to rebel, it isn't explicitly the Sandman version of the character but there's nothing that contradicts the characterization either. The story takes place before the fall, there's a murder in the Silver City and the angel Raguel is tasked to find out what happened. He eventually learns who did what and God (through Raguel) punishes the perpetrator by destroying them. Lucifer thinks the punishment was too harsh for the crime and the whole thing is shown as what plants the seeds of his rebellion.

Vicissitude
Jan 26, 2004

You ever do the chicken dance at a wake? That really bothers people.

Titan posted:

That would be so awesome. Supernatural already poked some fun at this show so a little poke back would be awesome.

Next episode looks great and it looks like it might set up what season 2 is about. Plus we actually get to see what happens when the devil abandons hell damned souls and demons can escape

That was a little story arc in Sandman, too. Lucifer kicked everyone else out of hell before he left and gave the key to Morpheus. But everything got wrapped up when someone was put back in charge of hell.

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013

computer parts posted:

I really like the idea of Lucifer being a punisher of evil, not evil himself. I don't think I've seen that interpretation before.

Also, he really emphasizes the rebellious streak. Someone like (eg) Supernatural's Lucifer seems pretty resigned to the Apocalypse narrative, and his rebellion is in a very orderly way ("there must be a villain").

In the comic books Lucifer creates a whole new cosmos with a new Earth and new Adam and Eve figures, and tells them that they're free to do as they will so long as they never worship anyone, not even the Creator. The results are not great, but Lucifer was pleased that at least some could accept freedom as he sees it. It seems like an exploration of the concept of will not all that divorced from the futurists a century ago.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer
The existence of weapons that can hurt angels is actual necisarry, because Maze already had to have used one to cut off Lucifer's wings.

I personally think that Maze wasn't going to really hurt Amenadiel, but she wanted to test if her knives could actually cut him. Like she was just going to make a little cut to see if they worked. If they were forged in hell for the express purpose of cutting off Luci's wings when he go to Earth, their effectiveness in any other situation is entirely hypothetical.

Hughlander
May 11, 2005

Snak posted:

The existence of weapons that can hurt angels is actual necisarry, because Maze already had to have used one to cut off Lucifer's wings.

I personally think that Maze wasn't going to really hurt Amenadiel, but she wanted to test if her knives could actually cut him. Like she was just going to make a little cut to see if they worked. If they were forged in hell for the express purpose of cutting off Luci's wings when he go to Earth, their effectiveness in any other situation is entirely hypothetical.

I'd think that unless the rebellion was fisticuffs and strong words, there already were weapons.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer
How much do we know about the rebellion in the context of the show, though? Despite the source material and some mythological versions, the fall of Lucifer doesn't always involve a war in heaven.

And yeah, judging from the fight between Lucifer and Amenadiel in The last episode, it very much could have been just fists.

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.
Speaking of Amenadiel, I actually really liked his house. An obviously poor attempt at simulating heaven with soft lights and billowing sheets hanging everywhere. Dude is homesick :3:

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Snak posted:

How much do we know about the rebellion in the context of the show, though? Despite the source material and some mythological versions, the fall of Lucifer doesn't always involve a war in heaven.

From what it sounds like, the Rebellion in this show is more like the Islamic concept of the Devil - Lucifer disobeys, and God says "fine, we'll deal with you later but for now I need someone to tempt* and punish the wicked, so you get that job".


*I guess I figured out the major difference - this Lucifer doesn't really do temptation. Humanity fucks up all the time, and maybe Lucifer encourages it with his deals, but he doesn't outright say "sell your soul to me". It's a very interesting take on the character.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.
Grimey Drawer
Instead of tempting, he tries to get people to own up to their vices and desires. He hates dishonestly, even when it's just people being dishonest with themselves.

And yeah, the best rebellions of Lucifer aren't battles, but simply an open defiance of the will of God which is immediately punished. It's much interesting for Lucifer to be punished on purely ideological grounds.

In the book of Enoch, for example, the fallen are cast out for sharing knowledge with humans. Benevolent sharing. They felt that it was wrong to deny knowledge of writing and fire and technology from humans, and God was like "NO YOU FUCKS, THAT WAS NOT FOR THEM!

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013

computer parts posted:

From what it sounds like, the Rebellion in this show is more like the Islamic concept of the Devil - Lucifer disobeys, and God says "fine, we'll deal with you later but for now I need someone to tempt* and punish the wicked, so you get that job".


*I guess I figured out the major difference - this Lucifer doesn't really do temptation. Humanity fucks up all the time, and maybe Lucifer encourages it with his deals, but he doesn't outright say "sell your soul to me". It's a very interesting take on the character.

Again, in the comic, but it's kind of a Big Deal that Lucifer always keeps to his word. So deal with him as you best think suits you. And he probably thinks better than you, so good luck!

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Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Snak posted:

In the book of Enoch, for example, the fallen are cast out for sharing knowledge with humans. Benevolent sharing. They felt that it was wrong to deny knowledge of writing and fire and technology from humans, and God was like "NO YOU FUCKS, THAT WAS NOT FOR THEM!

I wonder, are the ruling deities in all the pantheons such absolute cocks about fire? Humans getting fire seems to fairly frequently be the result of someone disobeying the divine order.

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