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I feel like Beast is pretty much the logical endpoint of the "oh man isn't it kewl and badass to play an ALL EVIL party?" mindset. Like, no it isn't. It may have been loving awesome when I was in middle school and hadn't figured poo poo out yet, but from the point of view of an adult who's trying to not be a terrible person it's the worst idea. Unsympathetic villains as "antiheroes" I'm supposed to be rooting for (or playing) isn't good writing, it isn't fun, it's just the RPG equivalent of playing Cards Against Humanity: an excuse to do/say terrible poo poo and just write it off because "it's just an RPG, man" like that makes it okay. e: wow, that was angrier than I meant it to be. Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 20:17
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Cythereal posted:Oh, this is fun to think about. Vascu: Dress it up however you like, at the end of the day you're just another murderer to lock away.
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Apr 26, 2016 20:17
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Servetus posted:Vascu: Dress it up however you like, at the end of the day you're just another murderer to lock away. Not only that but 'We have laws about this. We'll still give you a trial, you'll still get your rights, and you'll be brought to justice. More than you ever gave anyone and we can still afford to do it.'
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Apr 26, 2016 20:24
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Night10194 posted:Not only that but 'We have laws about this. We'll still give you a trial, you'll still get your rights, and you'll be brought to justice. More than you ever gave anyone and we can still afford to do it.' That's how I interpreted Valkyrie. I suppose in this light Valkyrie might be "For all your magic, all your supernatural powers and alien abilities and superhuman might, we're doing all that and more with mere technology. Technology that in time will be mass-produced and available to everyone."
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Apr 26, 2016 20:30
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what I hate about Beast is that the juxtaposition of "antiheroic" PCs and the oppression allegory means the cleanest read of the setting is "gay people really are all drugged-out child molesters who recruit teenagers and you're the evil one for trying to stop them!" like, the idea of a world that fears and hates you loses its bite when you deserve every last bit of that fear and hatred
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Apr 26, 2016 20:39
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If I ever did do anything with that Toku fan-splat idea(if I can figure out how to make them fit into Chronicles of Darkness thematically in a way that's fitting to the source material), when it comes to the section detailing how they interact with other types of supernatural beings, I'd probably list them as being instinctively hostile towards Beasts, cause one of my current ideas for this is if you were to consider Humanity as an organism, Hunters would be the White Blood Cells, and most Supernatural types are diseases that plague it, while whatever I call my idea(that's been another problem I've had with this, can't think of a good name for it) would be the equivalent of taking prescription strength medication to fight said diseases(and yes I just realized I basically said that the World of Darkness is Bill Murray in Osmosis Jones)
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Apr 26, 2016 20:40
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It also seems like Beasts simply and completely cannot fit in with a normal mortal society. I don't mean "would prefer not to" or "would have to overcome the obstacles in the way," and I'm not super familiar with the CoD Werewolf or Changeling. But we have several large loud fictional examples of vampires getting integrated into recognizable mundane society - you might need to invent Tru Blood first, but even without that, it's like, this COULD happen. Beasts seem fundamentally, ideologically opposed to even the most bare-bones getting along with others. BUT THEY'RE SO SEXY TO OTHER SUPERNATURALS, I guess - yeah, maybe like your teenage rear end in a top hat friend Todd.
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Apr 26, 2016 20:59
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And yet again, Hunters, who are [mostly] not supernatural. Folks have been saying this book presents "But what gives you the right to hunt us?" as a logic bomb that nips that problem in the bud. But Hunters... most of them really don't give a poo poo about that argument.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:13
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Cythereal posted:"But what gives you the right to hunt us?"
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Apr 26, 2016 21:16
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For a good chunk of hunters the answer is "The United States Government"
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Apr 26, 2016 21:20
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unseenlibrarian posted:For a good chunk of hunters the answer is "The United States Government" "God" is another popular one.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:22
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drrockso20 posted:If I ever did do anything with that Toku fan-splat idea(if I can figure out how to make them fit into Chronicles of Darkness thematically in a way that's fitting to the source material), when it comes to the section detailing how they interact with other types of supernatural beings, I'd probably list them as being instinctively hostile towards Beasts, cause one of my current ideas for this is if you were to consider Humanity as an organism, Hunters would be the White Blood Cells, and most Supernatural types are diseases that plague it, while whatever I call my idea(that's been another problem I've had with this, can't think of a good name for it) would be the equivalent of taking prescription strength medication to fight said diseases(and yes I just realized I basically said that the World of Darkness is Bill Murray in Osmosis Jones) All supernatural splats are either monsters*, generals, or potential extra heroes. *) Not to be confused with the proper antagonists, the Monsters-of-the-Week (which may or may not require a lazy Latin translation to make it sound more classy) EDIT: Monstrum Hebdomadae. Now if that doesn't scream WoD, I don't know what does. Doresh fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 21:22
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Even if you're an atheist and refuse to create joinder with the illegitimate united states government as a free boat on the land, I'd say "Well, you torment people for no loving reason and you don't even have the excuse of being a bloodsucking monster" works pretty well.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:30
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Nessus posted:Even if you're an atheist and refuse to create joinder with the illegitimate united states government as a free boat on the land, I'd say "Well, you torment people for no loving reason and you don't even have the excuse of being a bloodsucking monster" works pretty well. "But don't you see? Humanity* grew too large and has forgotten it's primal past. If not for me it would be someone else who makes the choice* to become the monster who reminds you that you are meat* and need protection* from the things that lurk in the dark." *Prime opportunities to interrupt with a shotgun blast
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Apr 26, 2016 21:32
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"We already get that everyday, try watching the news, buddy." *BANG* but really, there's nothing Beasts do that another line hasn't done better, or would be so horrible that I would side-eye someone wanting to play them.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:36
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The best way to use Beast in Chronicles of Darkness is three steps: 1: Be aware of Beast. 2: Be aware of the problems with the line, the writing, the implications, everything. Get educated, arm yourself with knowledge and learn from the game line. 3: Using this knowledge and understanding, do not run Beast.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:39
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Hostile V posted:The best way to use Beast in Chronicles of Darkness is three steps: Also, if a prospective player talks about how great Beast is and how cool it would be to play it, remove that player from your group.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:40
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Nessus posted:Even if you're an atheist and refuse to create joinder with the illegitimate united states government as a free boat on the land, I'd say "Well, you torment people for no loving reason and you don't even have the excuse of being a bloodsucking monster" works pretty well. Or how a Not-Princess would put it: "Nobody needs your brand of lessons in the days of public schools and Wikipedia!"
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Apr 26, 2016 21:41
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Kurieg posted:"But don't you see? Humanity* grew too large and has forgotten it's primal past. If not for me it would be someone else who makes the choice* to become the monster who reminds you that you are meat* and need protection* from the things that lurk in the dark." "I blew the thing to pieces but the smug monologuing wouldn't stop even when it's head was in tatters! I had to resort to stomping up and down on it as said "I know what you are but what am I?" over and over again."
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Apr 26, 2016 21:42
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Kurieg posted:"************B*u*t* *d*o*n*'t* *y*o*u* *s*e*e*? *H*u*m*a*n*i*t*y* *g*r*e*w* *t*o*o* *l*a*r*g*e* *a*n*d* *h*a*s* *f*o*r*g*o*t*t*e*n* *i*t*'s* *p*r*i*m*a*l* *p*a*s*t*. *I*f* *n*o*t* *f*o*r* *m*e* *i*t* *w*o*u*l*d* *b*e* *s*o*m*e*o*n*e* *e*l*s*e* *w*h*o* *m*a*k*e*s* *t*h*e* *c*h*o*i*c*e* *t*o* *b*e*c*o*m*e* *t*h*e* *m*o*n*s*t*e*r* *w*h*o* *r*e*m*i*n*d*s* *y*o*u* *t*h*a*t* *y*o*u* *a*r*e* *m*e*a*t* *a*n*d* *n*e*e*d* *p*r*o*t*e*c*t*i*o*n* *f*r*o*m* *t*h*e* *t*h*i*n*g*s* *t*h*a*t* *l*u*r*k* *i*n* *t*h*e* *d*a*r*k********."
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Apr 26, 2016 21:45
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Kurieg posted:"But don't you see? Humanity* grew too large and has forgotten it's primal past. If not for me it would be someone else who makes the choice* to become the monster who reminds you that you are meat* and need protection* from the things that lurk in the dark." If it was that they were to serve as the shadowmasters who defend people in whatever weird complex behind the scenes way, even if the "lessons" were lovely and outdated stuff, at least that's an idea.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:48
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Going to quote myself from the WoD thread:quote:Hunter Alice: "I'm here to kill you, Beast."
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Apr 26, 2016 21:49
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Oh just wait you guys, the next chapter goes into detail about Beast Society and most importantly the set of rules that all beasts are taught by their "big brothers". e: and I found yet another pair of really creepy Gay Beasts. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 21:50
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"But if you kill me for acting as my nature dictates, aren't you as bad as me?" "...Nope." *shotgun blast*
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Apr 26, 2016 21:51
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Evil Mastermind posted:"But if you kill me for acting as my nature dictates, aren't you as bad as me?" "But what if it is in my nature to teach you guys some lessons about the dangers of lead?"
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Apr 26, 2016 21:55
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"It's in my nature to keep both the skin and spirit worlds in order, and you're loving up both. Now die."
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Apr 26, 2016 21:57
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Evil Mastermind posted:"But if you kill me for acting as my nature dictates, aren't you as bad as me?" "Probably." *BLAM*
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Apr 26, 2016 22:00
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I have never seen a game that has unified so many people in their opinion. It's actually kind of remarkable.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:03
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I hate to add to this derail, but. Now I'm just imagining a Hunter keeping the Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance soundtrack on his phone for whenever an irredeemable type of monster is like "by killing me, you'll be no better than me! It's just nature!"
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Apr 26, 2016 22:03
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Hostile V posted:I hate to add to this derail, but. Now I'm just imagining a Hunter keeping the Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance soundtrack on his phone for whenever an irredeemable type of monster is like "by killing me, you'll be no better than me! It's just nature!" "...And here I am, again, arguing philosophy with terrorists. *Sigh*." Raiden's seen that poo poo.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:05
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"There's actually no difference between good and bad things. You imbecile. You loving moron". The denim avenger claims another rear end.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:08
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"This Whole Thing Smacks Of Gender," i holler as i overturn my uncle's barbeque grill and turn the 4th of July into the 4th of poo poo. Except with Beast the BBQ is thrown onto the uncle for wearing a "Kiss the Cook" apron.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:11
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"We're both monsters. The difference is that I'm a monster working for the United States government to serve the public good by turning my need for killing against those who lack my restraint and sense of patriotism."
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Apr 26, 2016 22:11
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Cythereal posted:Network Zero: You are being watched every second of your life. I like putting this one less as an absolute of "You're always being watched" and more of an inevitability. "No matter how much you cling to shadows and darkness, humans will find you, and they won't be happy with you when they do."
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Apr 26, 2016 22:23
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So here goes a second, concurrent FATAL & Friends review of Exalted 3....Monathin is doing a wonderful job of handling the foreground fluff & combat mechanics. I'd like to do an overview that is 100% under the hood stuff, basically mechanics and all the non-combat systems. That said, welcome to... Exalted 3 - Bloodless Edition For an overview on the setting, please check out Monathin's posts - I'll assume you know what Creation is, why the Realm is (and is not) a bunch of dickbags, and who the Solars are. Let's dig into how this glorious weird awesome terrible fluff translates into actual rules on the table. There is always something to spend Getting poo poo done in Exalted is usually a matter of spending some sort of resource to invoke a special effect. Willpower is the most basic of these resources - it's the only thing available to the mundane citizens of Creation (I guess Health Levels are technically a resource as well, but those aren't usually spent voluntarily). You can spend a Willpower to increase the chance of success for almost any action in the game. For things with an Essence rating of higher than one, they also have a pool of Essence motes available. These are spent to invoke the vast majority of special powers in the world of Exalted, which are collectively referred to as Charms. Within combat there are two more important resources to manage - initiative and anima level. Initiative tracks, similar to many games, the order in which characters act during the combat turn - but it handles immensely more than that as well. Monathin will almost get to combat before I do so please read in detail - it's a fantastic system and one of the biggest improvements to Exalted 3rd edition. For the purposes of everything else, Essence and Willpower are what's important. It's worth mentioning that most of the time, the costs of non-combat Charms are fairly low compared to the size of Solar Essence pools - it's only near the apex of most Charm trees where you start worrying about having enough Essence to pay for the awesome power you want. Going from empty to full Essence is measured in hours, so there is a risk/reward where you spend all your mojo to achieve some impressive feat, but are vulnerable to ambush/response in the time it takes to recharge. Willpower replenishes even more slowly (matter of days), so spending it is a proportionally bigger commitment. The deep end of the dice pool Exalted 3 uses the Storyteller system, which makes it look a lot more like oWOD than nWOD in practice. Tests are adjudicated by rolling a pool of d10s (usually equal to Attribute + Ability + modifiers), and counting 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s as successes. These successes are compared to the Difficulty of the test, which starts at Difficulty 1 and scales up to five. Get successes matching or exceeding the difficulty of the test and you achieve whatever it is you wanted - successes above the difficulty are referred to as the overflow and sometimes come into play in the consequences of the test. Seems simple, right? Time to start messing with it. Exalted uses a number of, for lack of a better term, dice games to represent various ways that the mystical forces of the universe intervene. Many of these mechanics are (wisely) resused over and over again so let's get familiar with them in the abstract. Double successes - while normally a dice showing 7/8/9/10 counts as a single success, there are exceptions. Almost all rolls have the double 10s effect, meaning that dice showing 10s count as two successes. Various Charms can grant double 9s, double 8s, or double 7s, with each one being generally more expensive than the last. Dice adders are kind of the baseline Charm to boost yourself. Spend Essense and/or Willpower and you get to add a number of dice to your roll. Success adders are much the same thing, but skip over that pesky randomness thing and augment the successes on the roll directly. Each type of Exalted has their own limit on how much they can boost a single roll - Solar/Abyssal Exalted have the highest cap, that being the base Attribute + Ability being rolled, effectively doubling their overall dice pool ceiling. Terrestrials are capped at the Ability used, Lunars at the Attribute, Siderals at their Essence. Success adders count as two dice for the purpose of this limit, as do any effects that boost a static value (such as Defense, Guile, or Resolve). Rerolls do just what it says on the tin - let you reroll a die that doesn't show a success in the hopes of getting something better. Many rerolls in Exalted are cascading rerolls, meaning that you reroll every die showing X until no dice show X. There is no flat limit to how many dice are rerolled, though many individual effects provide a guideline for their specific case. Dice showing a 1 hold a special place of dread in older Storyteller/Storytelling systems. Early on they subtracted from your success pool, but that's been done away with because it does really terrible things to the probabilities. In Exalted, a roll which has no successes AND one or more zeroes is a Botch, with some sort of terrible consequence for the actor - this mechanic has been around for a while now. What's new in Exalted is that 1s (and sometimes 2s) on a roll represent the possibility for your action to be sabotaged by other people - there are various Charms, used in response to a successful action, that are powered up / made available by the presence of low dice in the initial roll. I personally think this is a fairly clever mechanic. Any given action can be governed by some, none, or ALL of these mechanics at the same time depending upon the Charms in effect - you could start out rolling 8 dice, buy another 8 dice for some Essence, stack double 9s on top of that, and reroll all 6s until no more 6s are shown. Dice pools for Solars can get really, REALLY big - part of the fun, challenge (or heartache, depending upon your point of view) is thinking in terms of what's feasible when you can expect to get 8-10 successes in a single roll. In combat this comes primarily from opponents who command equally large dice pools - out of combat you have to think in different terms, and hopefully that's what we'll discover. Nothing Succeeds Like Success For most Charms, the only limit to how often you can use them is your pool of resources (Essence, Willpower, initiative, anima, what-have-you). Some Charms can only be used once per scene or combat - unless certain reset conditions are met. In combat this is usually about building up a degree of dominance over your opponent - out of combat the reset conditions usually revolve around achieving some sort of significant goal for your character that the Charm probably let you do. This ties in nicely with the Solar theme of overwhelming excellence - if you lay it all on the line with some big Charm and succeed, the Charm resets and you can reach even further assuming your Essence pool can sustain it. Next time: Hiding Mouse, Seeking Cat - Awareness, Stealth, Investigation, Larceny! kaynorr fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 22:33
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The lessons that Beast want to teach is the same lesson Tyler loving Durden taught Raymon K Hessel in Fight Club. I'm not sure if this is funny or sad.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:35
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Nessus posted:I don't even get these dudes because it's not even like they're making people tougher or whatever. If the idea was that Beasts provoke Heroes, and then the Heroes end up (at personal cost) being the defenders of their tribes - and it was implied maybe that when you run into a guy who's a little too consumed by the cause, any cause, that guy is a Hero - then that would give Beasts a job, a sort of cosmic purpose. It's kind of explicit in the beginning of the book that this whole "lesson" poo poo is all just a culture of rationalization the beasts make up to tell themselves that there's some kind of contribution they're making to the world beyond just sating their selfish desire for power and cruelty. The cosmos doesn't care, the Dark Mother doesn't care, the Horror doesn't care, and you don't have to dig very far down to reach the point where the Beast herself doesn't care. They want to survive, thrive and take pleasure, but they can't shake the withered remains of their conscience that tells them this poo poo is not okay, so they tell it some paper-thin lies to shut it up. Except again, the book is so emotionally attached to the Beasts' perspective that most of it buys into the shallow, half-hearted rationalization, and presents it uncritically. And this is already one of the core themes behind Vampire, except the Vampire books have the sense to come right out and show you, those vampires who make up vampire religions and vampire revolutionary politics to justify how drinking the blood of the living is worth it in the long term? The best of them are walking a precarious line, while most of them are just outright full of poo poo.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:46
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kaynorr posted:Exalted 3 - Bloodless Edition Quick note, kaynorr, but 3e is explicitly called out to be Storyteller system, which is pretty much what all OPP/White Wolf stuff runs. Admittedly, it skews closer to oWoD than nWoD in how it operates (you always roll Attribute + Ability, there's no rolling two attributes like, say, nWoD/CofD's Wits + Composure Spot Check). Other than that this a good writeup of the base mechanics in play and I endorse it! if you wanna throw this banner in so it's caught and put on the offsite writeup, go ahead:
Monathin fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 22:49
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Nessus posted:Even if you're an atheist and refuse to create joinder with the illegitimate united states government as a free boat on the land, I'd say "Well, you torment people for no loving reason and you don't even have the excuse of being a bloodsucking monster" works pretty well. In the end Mages are just Sovereign Citizens that figured out the right magic words. EDIT: there needs to be a SovCit hunter conspiracy that actually gains immunity to certain mental attacks through sheer force of psuedolegalese.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:51
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But the minute one of the Government backed Hunters show up all their powers turn off?
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Apr 26, 2016 22:54
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